Den 3 januari 2026 angrep USA på Donald Trumps order Venezuelas huvudstad Caracas och kidnappade president Nicolás Maduro. Är detta slutet för den bolivarianska revolutionen som inleddes med Hugo Chávez presidentskap 1998? Eller var det sista spiken i kistan för en regim redan på knä av sanktioner och oljeindustrins kuppförsök. Francisco Contreras guidar oss igenom Venezuelas nutidshistoria, regimförändring ovanifrån och demokratisk folkmakt underifrån, om försöket till ett socialistiskt projekt byggt på en av världens största oljekällor. Läs mer: Francisco Contreras: Var det ett regimskifte i Venezuela? (Parabol) https://www.parabol.press/genomforde-usa-ett-regimskifte-i-venezuela/ Chris Gilbert och Cira Pascual Marquina: Temanummer om Venezuelas kommuner (Monthly Review) https://monthlyreview.org/articles/a-special-issue-on-communes-in-socialist-construction/ Chris Gilbert: Commune or Nothing! Venezuela’s Communal Movement and its Socialist Project https://chrisgilbert.site/commune-or-nothing/ John Bellamy Foster: Chávez and the Communal State: On the Transition to Socialism in Venezuela (Monthly Review) https://monthlyreviewarchives.org/mr/article/view/MR-066-11-2015-04_1 Politics theory other: Richard Seymour om angreppet på Venezuela (Podcast) https://poddtoppen.se/podcast/1370561641/politics-theory-other/the-donroe-doctrine-and-us-decline The Dig: Venezuela med Alejandro Velasco, Gabriel Hetland, Yoletty Bracho (Podcast) https://thedigradio.com/podcast/venezuela-w-alejandro-velasco-gabriel-hetland-yoletty-bracho/ Wikipedia om Hugo Chavez, Bolivarianska revolutionen och 2000-talets socialism: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez
1 00:00:09,070 --> 00:00:10,710 We're dealing with a new president.
2 00:00:10,710 --> 00:00:12,910 We're dealing with a lot of the people
3 00:00:12,910 --> 00:00:14,270 that were running the country.
4 00:00:14,270 --> 00:00:17,310 And they had our first thing is they said,
5 00:00:17,310 --> 00:00:19,890 we have 50 million barrels.
6 00:00:19,890 --> 00:00:21,310 Hard to believe.
7 00:00:21,310 --> 00:00:23,750 I said, is there such a thing as 50 million barrels?
8 00:00:23,750 --> 00:00:26,530 50 million barrels of oil.
9 00:00:26,530 --> 00:00:29,690 And we have to get it processed immediately
10 00:00:29,690 --> 00:00:31,250 because we have no room.
11 00:00:31,250 --> 00:00:31,990 Will you take it?
12 00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:33,430 I said, we'll take it.
13 00:00:33,430 --> 00:00:36,730 And it's the equivalent of $5.2 billion.
14 00:00:36,730 --> 00:00:38,090 That was the first day.
15 00:00:38,090 --> 00:00:40,790 And it's now traveling nicely to the United States.
16 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,100 Thank you very much for presenting yourself.
17 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:27,800 Who are you?
18 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,540 I actually have several different hats, I would say.
19 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:38,440 So it depends on what context I'm in.
20 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,860 But I work professionally.
21 00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:44,220 I'm a sociologist.
22 00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:48,120 I work with education in sociology.
23 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,600 I also work at a ministry with high school education.
24 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:53,900 And especially foreign.
25 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,800 I know quite a lot about, or should know,
26 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,940 a lot about, especially Latin America and Spain,
27 00:02:00,940 --> 00:02:04,280 when it comes to universities and universities and schools and such.
28 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,420 I also work with UNESCO.
29 00:02:06,420 --> 00:02:09,620 I'm a whole lot in Latin America because of that.
30 00:02:09,620 --> 00:02:14,220 So, and then I've always been active politically,
31 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:16,380 in several different ways, actually.
32 00:02:16,380 --> 00:02:21,520 So I wouldn't say that I'm the one or the other.
33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,900 I've been very...
34 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:26,660 Partial, like in parties and such.
35 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:32,240 And then I have been a lot, maybe the most, in movements, I'd say.
36 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:37,940 A lot of solidarity movements, anti-war movements, and stuff.
37 00:02:37,940 --> 00:02:39,640 I've worked with Biston.
38 00:02:39,640 --> 00:02:42,320 I was the chairman of the Latin American groups for six years.
39 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,880 Today I am chairman of the Solidarity House.
40 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:50,460 Then I'm very, very curious about theories.
41 00:02:50,460 --> 00:02:53,600 Sociology, so sociological theories, but also...
42 00:02:53,600 --> 00:03:00,960 politics. And that has made me now also an international director for Parabol, which became
43 00:03:00,960 --> 00:03:08,120 a slump. I just fell in there. And so it became. I don't know. It's a little in that direction.
44 00:03:09,180 --> 00:03:17,620 And you and me and John Hörnqvist, we had a study circle about the world system, imperialism
45 00:03:17,620 --> 00:03:24,940 a few years ago, which we presented not at the latest Marx conference, but before that.
46 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:33,400 So that's why I also thought it was good to invite you in and talk a little about what is happening
47 00:03:33,400 --> 00:03:41,440 around Venezuela now and maybe connect it to a broader approach also around all of South America
48 00:03:41,440 --> 00:03:47,540 and American imperialism, if it is now going to go back.
49 00:03:47,620 --> 00:04:01,600 to a earlier stage again, to declare Latin America as their interest area or as their special zone.
50 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:11,080 They have a monopoly or hegemony over to deal with. What kind of connection do you have to Latin America
51 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:12,240 if you start there?
52 00:04:17,620 --> 00:04:24,400 I started in the dictatorship, the dictatorship to Sweden as as an exile, as a Chilean,
53 00:04:24,400 --> 00:04:30,280 quite simply as refugees. So that's probably the connection I have in the main thing.
54 00:04:30,280 --> 00:04:38,520 Then I've always had a political but also an emotional and cultural connection to Latin America.
55 00:04:38,520 --> 00:04:45,800 I have kept that a lot from home, of course. We were my parents and then we were also very active in the
56 00:04:45,800 --> 00:04:45,840 And we also worked on the whole of the process. So I think it's a bit of a struggle. It's a big struggle.
57 00:04:45,840 --> 00:04:45,940 And I think it's a good thing that we're all working together as a society. And then, of course, there are a lot of things that I think are important.
58 00:04:45,940 --> 00:04:46,020 of course, there are a lot of things that I think are important that we should work on, but we also have to get it done.
59 00:04:46,020 --> 00:04:53,640 I've also been very active in the solidarity movement with Chile, but also other countries in Latin America.
60 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:58,460 So that connection exists, and I've never let go of it.
61 00:04:58,460 --> 00:05:09,840 I've always followed what's happening in Latin America, not just politically, but also culturally, theoretically, ideologically, and then also professionally.
62 00:05:09,840 --> 00:05:25,020 That's how I've followed it, and I would say that things and things happen all the time, just like here in Sweden, but also in Europe and so on, in all other regions.
63 00:05:25,020 --> 00:05:39,580 But since I've never let go of the contacts, you know, just as a little parenthesis, people, just as we are, we usually, if something interesting happens in a country,
64 00:05:39,580 --> 00:05:39,820 or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country,
65 00:05:39,820 --> 00:05:41,440 or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country, or something happens in a country,
66 00:05:41,440 --> 00:05:47,220 then you start to read more, and get contacts, and you know, you become active, and then maybe you travel there and so on.
67 00:05:47,220 --> 00:05:55,020 Then it's like this, all these, there are always conflicts, problems, things and things go up and down,
68 00:05:55,020 --> 00:05:59,340 and then you let go of it because there will probably be something else that is more interesting, and then you let go.
69 00:05:59,340 --> 00:06:04,200 And then you start with something else, let's say another country or another movement, or whatever.
70 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:09,560 I would say that I have not done that, that I have followed other movements, other...
71 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:13,820 political developments in other regions, which have actually been interesting,
72 00:06:13,820 --> 00:06:19,320 but I have always continued to have, so to speak, contact with Latin America, which means that you...
73 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:26,520 Suddenly you can, if you want to know something, then I have contact since 20, 30 years ago, something.
74 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:32,080 I mean, people who then were, so to speak, part of a small role, and then suddenly became ministers,
75 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:38,620 or have become, what do I know, big, well-known artists, or people who have...
76 00:06:38,620 --> 00:06:39,300 Yes, or who have become...
77 00:06:39,300 --> 00:06:48,280 Who have become professionals in their area, and so on, so that you still have a contact, which makes it easier, so to speak, to be able to talk to people.
78 00:06:48,280 --> 00:06:57,220 But that you don't always have to go to books or to texts, so that you can have conversations with, just like I have now, so I've had many conversations.
79 00:06:57,220 --> 00:07:04,520 Last week I had many, many conversations, every day, several, with several people in Latin America.
80 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:09,060 And it's so easy to communicate nowadays, which makes you get, so to speak, a different insight...
81 00:07:09,060 --> 00:07:09,760 ...in what's going on.
82 00:07:10,220 --> 00:07:18,400 If you could just take a big step now on all of Latin America, because I've done a few podcasts before.
83 00:07:18,400 --> 00:07:26,080 I've done one with America Vera Zavala, where we talked about the pink tide, or what you call it, pink tide,
84 00:07:26,220 --> 00:07:34,380 about the whole wave of left-wing populism that came around 2000, around the millennium shift,
85 00:07:34,380 --> 00:07:38,380 and how it gained power in a number of different...
86 00:07:39,060 --> 00:07:42,540 ...Latin American states, with different success.
87 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:50,700 Some managed to change, but better, while others, perhaps, became more short-lived, like, waves.
88 00:07:51,460 --> 00:08:00,280 And I also did an episode about Mexico, Chiapas, about the Zapatistas, as one of, one could say,
89 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:08,280 inspirations for a new form of, like, left-wing, in the 90s and 00s.
90 00:08:09,060 --> 00:08:09,300 So, where do you see the current situation?
91 00:08:09,700 --> 00:08:11,600 What's the situation like now?
92 00:08:11,820 --> 00:08:19,640 Now it seems like there's been a right-wing in a country after country, mostly in Latin America now.
93 00:08:20,460 --> 00:08:26,600 Latin America is actually a huge region, and one would also like to say Latin America and Caribbean.
94 00:08:27,700 --> 00:08:35,539 But it's this hemisphere that's huge, and there are, of course, different waves, and political waves,
95 00:08:35,539 --> 00:08:38,200 and even ideological waves that are going on.
96 00:08:39,059 --> 00:08:47,340 What is happening now is not unique at all, but you can go back to, to give an example,
97 00:08:47,340 --> 00:08:58,700 in the 40s, 50s and 60s there was a more nationalistic, state-building movement in these countries.
98 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:15,140 There are several presidents who go in to form a state in a way that was previously inherited from colonialism, for example.
99 00:09:15,140 --> 00:09:26,900 This also causes a lot of changes, and Peronism is a good example of how nationalism is being built.
100 00:09:26,900 --> 00:09:28,660 I'm not talking about the,
101 00:09:28,660 --> 00:09:34,020 high-racist nationalism, I'm talking more about building a state, so to speak.
102 00:09:34,020 --> 00:09:43,540 And then you can see, if you just go back, you can see during this time that there are a number of different presidents
103 00:09:43,540 --> 00:09:53,860 that you could not say were left-wing, but where they predicted a state, a sovereign state.
104 00:09:53,860 --> 00:09:56,860 I have had the opportunity,
105 00:09:56,860 --> 00:09:58,620 with different,
106 00:09:58,620 --> 00:10:01,980 different types of work, to travel around Latin America.
107 00:10:01,980 --> 00:10:05,060 Very many countries, I'm not going to say all of them, but very many countries.
108 00:10:05,060 --> 00:10:09,500 So you have, and I like history, and I still want to understand things and things.
109 00:10:09,500 --> 00:10:15,740 You have such curiosity, so suddenly you can, so to speak, understand that what happened,
110 00:10:15,740 --> 00:10:22,220 that there was a, there was Perón in Argentina, and then Aguirre Cerda in Chile, and then there was
111 00:10:22,220 --> 00:10:28,500 Pérez Jiménez in Venezuela, and so on, which roughly built on the same idea, that one, that one should,
112 00:10:28,620 --> 00:10:30,620 like in Spain.
113 00:10:30,620 --> 00:10:31,320 Yes.
114 00:10:31,320 --> 00:10:32,180 That's very true.
115 00:10:32,180 --> 00:10:32,980 Yes.
116 00:10:32,980 --> 00:10:41,980 I know that here, ah, this comes out of history, and even TOA cool as pissed.
117 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:42,580 Yes.
118 00:10:42,580 --> 00:10:45,580 That Erdogan beliefs still exist.
119 00:10:45,580 --> 00:10:51,280 Please mention the race, if you have any.
120 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:51,880 Yeah.
121 00:10:51,880 --> 00:10:53,820 For 2021.
122 00:10:53,820 --> 00:10:55,420 Yes.
123 00:10:55,420 --> 00:10:56,220 Could you explain that?
124 00:10:56,220 --> 00:10:56,660 Yeah.
125 00:10:56,660 --> 00:10:57,520 I know that.
126 00:10:57,520 --> 00:10:58,200 That's good.
127 00:10:58,200 --> 00:10:58,320 Well, here you have China, yeah.
128 00:10:58,320 --> 00:10:58,500 Yes, yeah.
129 00:10:58,500 --> 00:10:58,600 You know.
130 00:10:58,620 --> 00:11:03,620 to start building and coming up with alternatives, and that's how it is.
131 00:11:03,620 --> 00:11:11,620 One could say that the Cuban revolution was in the first place nationalist.
132 00:11:11,620 --> 00:11:18,620 If you listen to what Fidel Castro said, they call it a part of the self-determination,
133 00:11:18,620 --> 00:11:21,620 I think it was the third self-determination war, something like that.
134 00:11:21,620 --> 00:11:26,620 Then there had been two under the 18th century and this was the third, in 1959.
135 00:11:26,620 --> 00:11:34,620 In the first place, it was about the homeland, the homeland, the self-determination and so on.
136 00:11:34,620 --> 00:11:43,620 The Cuban revolution from the beginning was part of the national self-determination process.
137 00:11:43,620 --> 00:11:50,620 It was in the first place to get rid of the US from power in Cuba.
138 00:11:50,620 --> 00:11:53,620 And so it is in other countries as well.
139 00:11:53,620 --> 00:11:56,620 But gradually, in the 60s and 70s,
140 00:11:56,620 --> 00:12:00,620 there were other movements that were interesting.
141 00:12:00,620 --> 00:12:04,620 Because at the same time, there were other movements.
142 00:12:04,620 --> 00:12:09,620 I think, for example, one movement that was interesting,
143 00:12:09,620 --> 00:12:14,620 which came quite early, was in Guatemala in 1953,
144 00:12:14,620 --> 00:12:20,620 in the beginning of the 50s, with Chaco Arbenz.
145 00:12:20,620 --> 00:12:25,620 In Guatemala, there was a company, United Fruits Company,
146 00:12:25,620 --> 00:12:28,620 which mainly owned the whole country.
147 00:12:28,620 --> 00:12:31,620 They did not only control banana production in the country,
148 00:12:31,620 --> 00:12:37,620 but they owned the port, they owned the transport, the electricity supply, you name it.
149 00:12:37,620 --> 00:12:39,620 They owned everything.
150 00:12:39,620 --> 00:12:44,620 And there was born in Guatemala a movement among the military,
151 00:12:44,620 --> 00:12:46,620 which was not at all socialist.
152 00:12:46,620 --> 00:12:49,620 We are talking about the 50s and 53s.
153 00:12:49,620 --> 00:12:52,620 They were not that big in Latin America.
154 00:12:52,620 --> 00:12:55,620 What they really wanted to introduce,
155 00:12:55,620 --> 00:12:58,620 was a land use reform,
156 00:12:58,620 --> 00:13:04,620 which would make poor people get land to live, to survive.
157 00:13:04,620 --> 00:13:07,620 And that reform went against, of course,
158 00:13:07,620 --> 00:13:10,620 these big companies from the US,
159 00:13:10,620 --> 00:13:12,620 which makes them make a coup,
160 00:13:12,620 --> 00:13:15,620 they make a coup against Chaco Arbenz.
161 00:13:15,620 --> 00:13:18,620 And the interesting thing is,
162 00:13:18,620 --> 00:13:22,620 there are some similarities with what is happening now with Maduro.
163 00:13:22,620 --> 00:13:24,620 The first is that behind,
164 00:13:24,620 --> 00:13:26,620 what the US does,
165 00:13:26,620 --> 00:13:30,620 there are also, in this case, oil companies, of course.
166 00:13:30,620 --> 00:13:32,620 In Chaco Arbenz's case,
167 00:13:32,620 --> 00:13:35,620 there was the United Fruits Company,
168 00:13:35,620 --> 00:13:39,620 which was behind and financed it quite a lot.
169 00:13:39,620 --> 00:13:41,620 And it also does, I mean,
170 00:13:41,620 --> 00:13:43,620 there is one oil company, the big oil company,
171 00:13:43,620 --> 00:13:46,620 which is behind a lot of financing today,
172 00:13:46,620 --> 00:13:47,620 it is Exxon Mobil.
173 00:13:47,620 --> 00:13:51,620 They exist both in Guyana and in Trinidad and Tobago,
174 00:13:51,620 --> 00:13:53,620 which borders Venezuela, for example.
175 00:13:53,620 --> 00:13:57,620 They finance several of the top politicians
176 00:13:57,620 --> 00:13:59,620 that exist in,
177 00:13:59,620 --> 00:14:01,620 that we know, for example, Machado,
178 00:14:01,620 --> 00:14:03,620 who won the Nobel Prize.
179 00:14:03,620 --> 00:14:07,620 It is Exxon Mobil that finances a lot of what they actually do.
180 00:14:07,620 --> 00:14:10,620 And another anecdote that is important,
181 00:14:10,620 --> 00:14:12,620 in this case,
182 00:14:12,620 --> 00:14:14,620 when Chaco Arbenz, what he does is that
183 00:14:14,620 --> 00:14:17,620 he eventually leaves power and goes into exile.
184 00:14:17,620 --> 00:14:20,620 And you can draw parallels to Maduro,
185 00:14:20,620 --> 00:14:23,620 because the whole thing was that they wanted him to,
186 00:14:23,620 --> 00:14:25,620 to leave.
187 00:14:25,620 --> 00:14:28,620 And they advised him also that he would go into exile in Russia,
188 00:14:28,620 --> 00:14:31,620 and even Turkey was involved in the plans.
189 00:14:31,620 --> 00:14:33,620 So there was also that,
190 00:14:33,620 --> 00:14:35,620 what Trump says is that,
191 00:14:35,620 --> 00:14:37,620 well, we want to have control over the oil.
192 00:14:37,620 --> 00:14:39,620 So for us it is no problem if there is a,
193 00:14:39,620 --> 00:14:40,620 so to speak,
194 00:14:40,620 --> 00:14:42,620 a so-called socialist government,
195 00:14:42,620 --> 00:14:44,620 but only we get control over the oil.
196 00:14:44,620 --> 00:14:47,620 Just like what they did in Guatemala too,
197 00:14:47,620 --> 00:14:51,620 that Chaco Arbenz did not want to give them power at all.
198 00:14:51,620 --> 00:14:53,620 But in the end, he got,
199 00:14:53,620 --> 00:14:55,620 left power and went into exile.
200 00:14:55,620 --> 00:14:56,620 He did that.
201 00:14:56,620 --> 00:14:57,620 He did not resist at all.
202 00:14:57,620 --> 00:15:00,620 So they actually did not have to kidnap him.
203 00:15:00,620 --> 00:15:02,620 And they installed a military dictatorship.
204 00:15:02,620 --> 00:15:07,620 They used these high-technological war materials.
205 00:15:07,620 --> 00:15:10,620 What are these planes called?
206 00:15:10,620 --> 00:15:14,620 I'm really bad at that.
207 00:15:14,620 --> 00:15:17,620 But I think they're called P-47 Thunderbolt
208 00:15:17,620 --> 00:15:18,620 or something like that,
209 00:15:18,620 --> 00:15:20,620 which they used then in Guatemala.
210 00:15:20,620 --> 00:15:22,620 I'm talking about 1954.
211 00:15:23,620 --> 00:15:26,620 And I thought of the anecdote that is important.
212 00:15:26,620 --> 00:15:28,620 It is that one of those who were in Guatemala
213 00:15:28,620 --> 00:15:30,620 was in Che Guevara.
214 00:15:30,620 --> 00:15:32,620 We're talking about 54.
215 00:15:32,620 --> 00:15:35,620 So there was a group of Latin Americans
216 00:15:35,620 --> 00:15:37,620 who were in Guatemala
217 00:15:37,620 --> 00:15:39,620 and experienced, so to speak,
218 00:15:39,620 --> 00:15:40,620 everything that happened.
219 00:15:40,620 --> 00:15:43,620 The United States called it a meeting
220 00:15:43,620 --> 00:15:46,620 the same year as the state cup was in March.
221 00:15:46,620 --> 00:15:48,620 And the state cup was in June.
222 00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:50,620 In March they were called to a meeting in OAS,
223 00:15:50,620 --> 00:15:52,620 which was this Latin American,
224 00:15:52,620 --> 00:15:54,620 Latin American and American
225 00:15:54,620 --> 00:15:57,620 meeting of states, OAS.
226 00:15:57,620 --> 00:16:01,620 And Allan Dulles was the one who was
227 00:16:01,620 --> 00:16:03,620 the CIA chief there.
228 00:16:03,620 --> 00:16:05,620 And he was one of the people who called
229 00:16:05,620 --> 00:16:06,620 to that meeting.
230 00:16:06,620 --> 00:16:07,620 And they did that in Caracas,
231 00:16:07,620 --> 00:16:08,620 that meeting.
232 00:16:08,620 --> 00:16:10,620 And I know people who told about it.
233 00:16:10,620 --> 00:16:12,620 They had a lot of history.
234 00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:13,620 I don't know if they were born,
235 00:16:13,620 --> 00:16:15,620 but a few elders who told about it.
236 00:16:15,620 --> 00:16:17,620 And all the countries in Latin America
237 00:16:17,620 --> 00:16:19,620 had to write under a statement
238 00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:21,620 where they forbade themselves from
239 00:16:21,620 --> 00:16:23,620 opposing the future of communism
240 00:16:23,620 --> 00:16:24,620 in the region.
241 00:16:24,620 --> 00:16:25,620 We're talking about 1954.
242 00:16:25,620 --> 00:16:27,620 And then all these state cups came
243 00:16:27,620 --> 00:16:29,620 that most of us know
244 00:16:29,620 --> 00:16:31,620 in one way or another.
245 00:16:31,620 --> 00:16:34,620 In Uruguay, Argentina, Chile.
246 00:16:34,620 --> 00:16:36,620 All these state cups in Bolivia,
247 00:16:36,620 --> 00:16:39,620 even in Peru, and so on.
248 00:16:39,620 --> 00:16:41,620 So all these state cups came
249 00:16:41,620 --> 00:16:44,620 a little after Chaco Arbenz.
250 00:16:44,620 --> 00:16:47,620 And I think, just to end this sentence,
251 00:16:47,620 --> 00:16:50,620 that what happened now with Maduro,
252 00:16:50,620 --> 00:16:52,620 is that you go in as you do,
253 00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:54,620 and you don't carry out
254 00:16:54,620 --> 00:16:57,620 a complete rule of law change,
255 00:16:57,620 --> 00:16:58,620 shall we call it,
256 00:16:58,620 --> 00:17:00,620 but that you just kidnap
257 00:17:00,620 --> 00:17:02,620 and then threaten to do it again,
258 00:17:02,620 --> 00:17:04,619 do worse things.
259 00:17:04,619 --> 00:17:07,619 It's a new type of power
260 00:17:07,619 --> 00:17:10,619 that you will use in Latin America.
261 00:17:10,619 --> 00:17:12,619 Just as you did with Chaco Arbenz
262 00:17:12,619 --> 00:17:15,619 when you carried out these state cups.
263 00:17:15,619 --> 00:17:17,619 So there is a long history
264 00:17:17,619 --> 00:17:19,619 of American support and CIA support.
265 00:17:19,619 --> 00:17:22,619 State cups in Latin America.
266 00:17:22,619 --> 00:17:24,619 But as far as I understand it,
267 00:17:24,619 --> 00:17:26,619 Venezuela was a country
268 00:17:26,619 --> 00:17:29,620 that was long forgotten
269 00:17:29,620 --> 00:17:31,620 from that.
270 00:17:31,620 --> 00:17:33,620 That it was one of the countries
271 00:17:33,620 --> 00:17:35,620 in Latin America
272 00:17:35,620 --> 00:17:38,620 that was most likely similar
273 00:17:38,620 --> 00:17:41,620 to other Western countries
274 00:17:41,620 --> 00:17:44,620 in that there were two big parties
275 00:17:44,620 --> 00:17:47,620 that stood against each other in the election.
276 00:17:47,620 --> 00:17:48,620 Where a left...
277 00:17:48,620 --> 00:17:50,620 One more to the left,
278 00:17:50,620 --> 00:17:51,620 or a liberal,
279 00:17:51,620 --> 00:17:53,620 and a right-wing party
280 00:17:53,620 --> 00:17:55,620 that shifted from each other.
281 00:17:55,620 --> 00:17:59,620 And that it was also in Venezuela
282 00:17:59,620 --> 00:18:02,620 as an oil-producing country
283 00:18:02,620 --> 00:18:05,620 that was involved and took
284 00:18:05,620 --> 00:18:08,620 an initiative to OPEC.
285 00:18:08,620 --> 00:18:10,620 And that oil played
286 00:18:10,620 --> 00:18:14,620 a very significant role
287 00:18:14,620 --> 00:18:16,620 already then.
288 00:18:16,620 --> 00:18:17,620 And...
289 00:18:17,620 --> 00:18:20,620 That the nationalization
290 00:18:20,620 --> 00:18:22,620 that took place in Venezuela
291 00:18:22,620 --> 00:18:23,620 and oil,
292 00:18:23,620 --> 00:18:24,620 that was long before
293 00:18:24,620 --> 00:18:26,620 Maduro and Chavez.
294 00:18:26,620 --> 00:18:28,620 How did that happen?
295 00:18:28,620 --> 00:18:30,620 Where Venezuela took over
296 00:18:30,620 --> 00:18:32,620 oil production?
297 00:18:32,620 --> 00:18:34,620 Well, actually,
298 00:18:34,620 --> 00:18:36,620 it's like...
299 00:18:36,620 --> 00:18:38,620 You know, it's the victors
300 00:18:38,620 --> 00:18:40,620 who tell the story.
301 00:18:40,620 --> 00:18:41,620 Usually.
302 00:18:41,620 --> 00:18:43,620 And actually, it's like
303 00:18:43,620 --> 00:18:45,620 during the 19th century
304 00:18:45,620 --> 00:18:46,620 Venezuela went through
305 00:18:46,620 --> 00:18:48,620 several different processes.
306 00:18:48,620 --> 00:18:50,620 There was a state coup
307 00:18:50,620 --> 00:18:52,620 that was carried out in 1958.
308 00:18:52,620 --> 00:18:54,620 There was a dictatorship
309 00:18:54,620 --> 00:18:55,620 with Jimenez.
310 00:18:55,620 --> 00:18:57,620 But also in the early 19th century
311 00:18:57,620 --> 00:18:58,620 there was a blockade
312 00:18:58,620 --> 00:19:00,620 against one of the presidents
313 00:19:00,620 --> 00:19:02,620 who wanted to get control
314 00:19:02,620 --> 00:19:03,620 over oil.
315 00:19:03,620 --> 00:19:05,620 And the USA blocked it.
316 00:19:05,620 --> 00:19:06,620 And then they carried out
317 00:19:06,620 --> 00:19:07,620 a state coup
318 00:19:07,620 --> 00:19:09,620 in the early 19th century as well.
319 00:19:09,620 --> 00:19:10,620 So, actually,
320 00:19:10,620 --> 00:19:12,620 it has never been as calm
321 00:19:12,620 --> 00:19:14,620 as you might want to call it.
322 00:19:14,620 --> 00:19:15,620 You start scraping,
323 00:19:15,620 --> 00:19:16,620 and above all,
324 00:19:16,620 --> 00:19:17,620 you know,
325 00:19:17,620 --> 00:19:18,620 when you talk to some Venezuelans
326 00:19:18,620 --> 00:19:19,620 who say,
327 00:19:19,620 --> 00:19:21,620 hey, but before Chavez,
328 00:19:21,620 --> 00:19:23,620 what do they usually say?
329 00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:24,620 They say,
330 00:19:24,620 --> 00:19:25,620 we didn't know what we had
331 00:19:25,620 --> 00:19:26,620 before Chavez.
332 00:19:26,620 --> 00:19:27,620 And then when you start talking
333 00:19:27,620 --> 00:19:28,620 to them
334 00:19:28,620 --> 00:19:29,620 and mention,
335 00:19:29,620 --> 00:19:30,620 let's say,
336 00:19:30,620 --> 00:19:31,620 all these conflicts
337 00:19:31,620 --> 00:19:33,620 that were in Venezuela,
338 00:19:33,620 --> 00:19:34,620 then they don't want to talk
339 00:19:34,620 --> 00:19:35,620 anymore and say,
340 00:19:35,620 --> 00:19:36,620 oh, no, no,
341 00:19:36,620 --> 00:19:37,620 but it may not have been
342 00:19:37,620 --> 00:19:38,620 all that good.
343 00:19:38,620 --> 00:19:41,620 But just to make it a little short,
344 00:19:41,620 --> 00:19:43,620 so it's after 1958
345 00:19:43,620 --> 00:19:45,620 that they will come
346 00:19:45,620 --> 00:19:47,620 to an agreement
347 00:19:47,620 --> 00:19:48,620 that they will try
348 00:19:48,620 --> 00:19:49,620 to control the country
349 00:19:49,620 --> 00:19:50,620 and get control
350 00:19:50,620 --> 00:19:51,620 over the country.
351 00:19:51,620 --> 00:19:52,620 And what they come to an agreement
352 00:19:52,620 --> 00:19:53,620 with is that there are two parties
353 00:19:53,620 --> 00:19:54,620 who will be lucky
354 00:19:54,620 --> 00:19:55,620 to sit in power.
355 00:19:55,620 --> 00:19:56,620 So every time
356 00:19:56,620 --> 00:19:57,620 one of these parties
357 00:19:57,620 --> 00:19:58,620 sat in power,
358 00:19:58,620 --> 00:19:59,620 they spent a lot of money
359 00:19:59,620 --> 00:20:00,620 and everything.
360 00:20:00,620 --> 00:20:01,620 There was no corruption
361 00:20:01,620 --> 00:20:02,620 because they knew
362 00:20:02,620 --> 00:20:03,620 that the next time
363 00:20:03,620 --> 00:20:04,620 they were in power
364 00:20:04,620 --> 00:20:05,620 it would be the others
365 00:20:05,620 --> 00:20:06,620 who would take it.
366 00:20:06,620 --> 00:20:07,620 So it was this
367 00:20:07,620 --> 00:20:08,620 bipartisanism,
368 00:20:08,620 --> 00:20:09,620 what is called
369 00:20:09,620 --> 00:20:10,620 bipartisanism,
370 00:20:10,620 --> 00:20:11,620 that is,
371 00:20:11,620 --> 00:20:12,620 two parties
372 00:20:12,620 --> 00:20:13,620 who are lucky
373 00:20:13,620 --> 00:20:14,620 to sit in power
374 00:20:14,620 --> 00:20:15,620 instead of sitting
375 00:20:15,620 --> 00:20:16,620 in power.
376 00:20:16,620 --> 00:20:17,620 But this power,
377 00:20:17,620 --> 00:20:18,620 the political power,
378 00:20:18,620 --> 00:20:19,620 was also very raw.
379 00:20:19,620 --> 00:20:20,620 And just to mention
380 00:20:20,620 --> 00:20:21,620 one thing
381 00:20:21,620 --> 00:20:22,620 that few people know,
382 00:20:22,620 --> 00:20:23,620 you know,
383 00:20:23,620 --> 00:20:24,620 in Latin America
384 00:20:24,620 --> 00:20:25,620 we have been affected
385 00:20:25,620 --> 00:20:26,620 by what is called
386 00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:27,620 political disappearance.
387 00:20:27,620 --> 00:20:28,620 In Argentina
388 00:20:28,620 --> 00:20:29,620 there are about
389 00:20:29,620 --> 00:20:30,620 30,000 people
390 00:20:30,620 --> 00:20:31,620 who have disappeared
391 00:20:31,620 --> 00:20:32,620 for political reasons.
392 00:20:32,620 --> 00:20:33,620 And most of them
393 00:20:33,620 --> 00:20:34,620 have not been able
394 00:20:34,620 --> 00:20:35,620 to get out
395 00:20:35,620 --> 00:20:36,620 of the country
396 00:20:36,620 --> 00:20:37,620 at all.
397 00:20:37,620 --> 00:20:38,620 And that is
398 00:20:38,620 --> 00:20:39,620 the reason
399 00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:40,620 why we have
400 00:20:40,620 --> 00:20:41,620 so many people
401 00:20:41,620 --> 00:20:42,620 who have disappeared
402 00:20:42,620 --> 00:20:43,620 from the country
403 00:20:43,620 --> 00:20:44,620 to be able
404 00:20:44,620 --> 00:20:45,620 to find,
405 00:20:45,620 --> 00:20:46,620 so to speak.
406 00:20:46,620 --> 00:20:47,620 And it was something
407 00:20:47,620 --> 00:20:48,620 that happened
408 00:20:48,620 --> 00:20:49,620 not only in Argentina
409 00:20:49,620 --> 00:20:50,620 but also in Chile,
410 00:20:50,620 --> 00:20:51,620 Peru,
411 00:20:51,620 --> 00:20:52,620 Uruguay
412 00:20:52,620 --> 00:20:53,620 and Paraguay,
413 00:20:53,620 --> 00:20:55,620 where the first time
414 00:20:55,620 --> 00:20:56,620 the method
415 00:20:56,620 --> 00:20:57,620 was used
416 00:20:57,620 --> 00:20:58,620 was in Venezuela,
417 00:20:58,620 --> 00:20:59,620 actually.
418 00:20:59,620 --> 00:21:00,620 It was,
419 00:21:00,620 --> 00:21:01,620 so,
420 00:21:01,620 --> 00:21:02,620 this method
421 00:21:02,620 --> 00:21:03,620 that you
422 00:21:03,620 --> 00:21:04,620 would take people
423 00:21:04,620 --> 00:21:05,620 and then
424 00:21:05,620 --> 00:21:06,620 make them disappear
425 00:21:06,620 --> 00:21:07,620 completely,
426 00:21:07,620 --> 00:21:08,620 murder them
427 00:21:08,620 --> 00:21:09,620 or do something,
428 00:21:09,620 --> 00:21:10,620 was something
429 00:21:10,620 --> 00:21:11,620 that came from
430 00:21:11,620 --> 00:21:12,620 France.
431 00:21:12,620 --> 00:21:13,620 So you use
432 00:21:13,620 --> 00:21:14,620 that method
433 00:21:14,620 --> 00:21:15,620 in cities,
434 00:21:15,620 --> 00:21:16,620 especially in Algeria.
435 00:21:16,620 --> 00:21:17,620 And that method
436 00:21:17,620 --> 00:21:18,620 was taken with you
437 00:21:18,620 --> 00:21:19,620 to Latin America
438 00:21:19,620 --> 00:21:20,620 and tested
439 00:21:20,620 --> 00:21:21,620 if you could do it.
440 00:21:21,620 --> 00:21:22,620 And when you tested it
441 00:21:22,620 --> 00:21:23,620 and got,
442 00:21:23,620 --> 00:21:24,620 so to speak,
443 00:21:24,620 --> 00:21:25,620 it seems like
444 00:21:25,620 --> 00:21:26,620 a good result,
445 00:21:26,620 --> 00:21:27,620 it was in Venezuela
446 00:21:27,620 --> 00:21:28,620 the first country
447 00:21:28,620 --> 00:21:29,620 that you used it.
448 00:21:29,620 --> 00:21:30,620 And then it came to,
449 00:21:30,620 --> 00:21:31,620 so to speak,
450 00:21:31,620 --> 00:21:32,620 all the other countries
451 00:21:32,620 --> 00:21:33,620 in South America
452 00:21:33,620 --> 00:21:34,620 that you used it.
453 00:21:34,620 --> 00:21:35,620 It was first
454 00:21:35,620 --> 00:21:36,620 the fathers of death
455 00:21:36,620 --> 00:21:37,620 in El Salvador
456 00:21:37,620 --> 00:21:38,620 that, so to speak,
457 00:21:38,620 --> 00:21:39,620 was spread
458 00:21:39,620 --> 00:21:40,620 to other countries
459 00:21:40,620 --> 00:21:41,620 just like that.
460 00:21:41,620 --> 00:21:42,620 She,
461 00:21:42,620 --> 00:21:43,620 who is now
462 00:21:43,620 --> 00:21:44,620 interim president
463 00:21:44,620 --> 00:21:46,620 Delphi Rodriguez,
464 00:21:46,620 --> 00:21:47,620 you know,
465 00:21:47,620 --> 00:21:48,620 her father
466 00:21:48,620 --> 00:21:49,620 is one of those
467 00:21:49,620 --> 00:21:50,620 who,
468 00:21:50,620 --> 00:21:51,620 in 76,
469 00:21:51,620 --> 00:21:52,620 was murdered
470 00:21:52,620 --> 00:21:53,620 in Tortilla.
471 00:21:53,620 --> 00:21:54,620 So he was tortured
472 00:21:54,620 --> 00:21:55,620 to death
473 00:21:55,620 --> 00:21:56,620 by the power
474 00:21:56,620 --> 00:21:57,620 that existed
475 00:21:57,620 --> 00:21:58,620 then,
476 00:21:58,620 --> 00:21:59,620 the government
477 00:21:59,620 --> 00:22:08,490 that existed then.
478 00:22:08,490 --> 00:22:09,490 So many
479 00:22:09,490 --> 00:22:10,490 of the leaders
480 00:22:10,490 --> 00:22:11,490 today
481 00:22:11,490 --> 00:22:12,490 in Venezuela
482 00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:13,490 have survived
483 00:22:13,490 --> 00:22:14,490 repression,
484 00:22:14,490 --> 00:22:15,490 oppression,
485 00:22:15,490 --> 00:22:16,490 right-wing
486 00:22:16,490 --> 00:22:17,490 governments
487 00:22:17,490 --> 00:22:18,490 that were
488 00:22:18,490 --> 00:22:19,490 in 70s
489 00:22:19,490 --> 00:22:20,490 and 80s
490 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:21,490 and 90s
491 00:22:21,490 --> 00:22:22,490 simply.
492 00:22:22,490 --> 00:22:23,490 It is actually
493 00:22:23,490 --> 00:22:24,490 no secret
494 00:22:24,490 --> 00:22:25,490 that everyone
495 00:22:25,490 --> 00:22:26,490 knows
496 00:22:26,490 --> 00:22:27,490 their story.
497 00:22:27,490 --> 00:22:28,490 The two brothers,
498 00:22:28,490 --> 00:22:29,490 Delphi Rodriguez
499 00:22:29,490 --> 00:22:30,490 who is interim
500 00:22:30,490 --> 00:22:31,490 president
501 00:22:31,490 --> 00:22:32,490 and then
502 00:22:32,490 --> 00:22:33,490 you have
503 00:22:33,490 --> 00:22:34,490 Jorge Rodriguez
504 00:22:34,490 --> 00:22:35,490 who is
505 00:22:35,490 --> 00:22:36,490 chairman
506 00:22:36,490 --> 00:22:37,490 of the National Assembly.
507 00:22:37,490 --> 00:22:38,490 Both,
508 00:22:38,490 --> 00:22:39,490 so to speak,
509 00:22:39,490 --> 00:22:40,490 became active
510 00:22:40,490 --> 00:22:41,490 because of
511 00:22:41,490 --> 00:22:42,490 her father.
512 00:22:42,490 --> 00:22:43,490 So that conflict
513 00:22:43,490 --> 00:22:44,490 has existed.
514 00:22:44,490 --> 00:22:45,490 There are several
515 00:22:45,490 --> 00:22:46,490 even
516 00:22:46,490 --> 00:22:47,490 who today
517 00:22:47,490 --> 00:22:48,490 are on
518 00:22:48,490 --> 00:22:49,490 the left
519 00:22:49,490 --> 00:22:50,490 who come
520 00:22:50,490 --> 00:22:51,490 from families
521 00:22:51,490 --> 00:22:52,490 who were active
522 00:22:52,490 --> 00:22:53,490 from the left
523 00:22:53,490 --> 00:22:54,490 in the 70s,
524 00:22:54,490 --> 00:22:55,490 80s
525 00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:56,490 and 90s
526 00:22:56,490 --> 00:22:57,490 as well.
527 00:22:57,490 --> 00:22:58,490 So they have
528 00:22:58,490 --> 00:22:59,490 a common
529 00:22:59,490 --> 00:23:00,490 history.
530 00:23:00,490 --> 00:23:01,490 If we go
531 00:23:01,490 --> 00:23:02,490 forward
532 00:23:02,490 --> 00:23:03,490 to the Bolivarian
533 00:23:03,490 --> 00:23:04,490 revolution
534 00:23:04,490 --> 00:23:05,490 then
535 00:23:05,490 --> 00:23:06,490 and
536 00:23:06,490 --> 00:23:07,490 the movement
537 00:23:07,490 --> 00:23:08,490 that Hugo Chavez
538 00:23:08,490 --> 00:23:09,490 came with.
539 00:23:09,490 --> 00:23:10,490 It was
540 00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:11,490 at the end
541 00:23:11,490 --> 00:23:12,490 of the 90s
542 00:23:12,490 --> 00:23:13,490 that
543 00:23:13,490 --> 00:23:14,490 wins
544 00:23:14,490 --> 00:23:15,490 general
545 00:23:15,490 --> 00:23:16,490 elections.
546 00:23:16,490 --> 00:23:17,490 Where did this movement
547 00:23:17,490 --> 00:23:18,490 come from?
548 00:23:18,490 --> 00:23:19,490 Well,
549 00:23:19,490 --> 00:23:20,490 the Bolivian
550 00:23:20,490 --> 00:23:21,490 revolution
551 00:23:21,490 --> 00:23:22,490 started
552 00:23:22,490 --> 00:23:23,490 when
553 00:23:23,490 --> 00:23:24,490 neoliberalism
554 00:23:24,490 --> 00:23:25,490 had
555 00:23:25,490 --> 00:23:26,490 got
556 00:23:26,490 --> 00:23:27,490 hegemony
557 00:23:27,490 --> 00:23:28,490 over
558 00:23:28,490 --> 00:23:29,490 Latin America.
559 00:23:29,490 --> 00:23:30,490 Not only
560 00:23:30,490 --> 00:23:31,490 politically
561 00:23:31,490 --> 00:23:32,490 but also
562 00:23:32,490 --> 00:23:33,490 culturally
563 00:23:33,490 --> 00:23:34,490 and
564 00:23:34,490 --> 00:23:35,490 also
565 00:23:35,490 --> 00:23:36,490 organisatorily.
566 00:23:36,490 --> 00:23:37,490 So even
567 00:23:37,490 --> 00:23:38,490 the old
568 00:23:38,490 --> 00:23:39,490 left parties
569 00:23:39,490 --> 00:23:40,490 had
570 00:23:40,490 --> 00:23:41,490 in one way
571 00:23:41,490 --> 00:23:42,490 or another
572 00:23:42,490 --> 00:23:43,490 compromised
573 00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:44,490 with
574 00:23:44,490 --> 00:23:45,490 neoliberalism
575 00:23:45,490 --> 00:23:46,490 which
576 00:23:46,490 --> 00:23:47,490 made
577 00:23:47,490 --> 00:23:48,490 them
578 00:23:48,490 --> 00:23:49,490 more
579 00:23:49,490 --> 00:23:50,490 political
580 00:23:50,490 --> 00:23:51,490 but also
581 00:23:51,490 --> 00:23:52,490 ideological
582 00:23:52,490 --> 00:23:53,490 and
583 00:23:53,490 --> 00:23:54,490 organisatorily
584 00:23:54,490 --> 00:23:55,490 the
585 00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:56,490 left
586 00:23:56,490 --> 00:23:57,490 parties.
587 00:23:57,490 --> 00:23:58,490 So what
588 00:23:58,490 --> 00:23:59,490 grows
589 00:23:59,490 --> 00:24:00,490 up
590 00:24:00,490 --> 00:24:01,490 which
591 00:24:01,490 --> 00:24:02,490 I think
592 00:24:02,490 --> 00:24:03,490 is very
593 00:24:03,490 --> 00:24:04,490 interesting
594 00:24:04,490 --> 00:24:05,490 not only
595 00:24:05,490 --> 00:24:06,490 from
596 00:24:06,490 --> 00:24:07,490 a
597 00:24:07,490 --> 00:24:08,490 political
598 00:24:08,490 --> 00:24:09,490 perspective
599 00:24:09,490 --> 00:24:10,490 but also
600 00:24:10,490 --> 00:24:11,490 sociological
601 00:24:11,490 --> 00:24:12,490 is that
602 00:24:12,490 --> 00:24:13,490 a movement
603 00:24:13,490 --> 00:24:14,490 that consists
604 00:24:14,490 --> 00:24:15,490 of several
605 00:24:15,490 --> 00:24:16,490 different
606 00:24:16,490 --> 00:24:17,490 movements
607 00:24:17,490 --> 00:24:18,490 is the
608 00:24:18,490 --> 00:24:19,490 resistance
609 00:24:19,490 --> 00:24:20,490 to
610 00:24:20,490 --> 00:24:21,490 neoliberalism.
611 00:24:21,490 --> 00:24:22,490 The
612 00:24:22,490 --> 00:24:23,490 neoliberal era
613 00:24:23,490 --> 00:24:24,490 where
614 00:24:24,490 --> 00:24:25,490 the capital
615 00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:26,490 especially
616 00:24:26,490 --> 00:24:27,490 the international
617 00:24:27,490 --> 00:24:28,490 financial capital
618 00:24:28,490 --> 00:24:29,490 was forced
619 00:24:29,490 --> 00:24:30,490 into the
620 00:24:30,490 --> 00:24:31,490 society
621 00:24:31,490 --> 00:24:32,490 to take
622 00:24:32,490 --> 00:24:33,490 over
623 00:24:33,490 --> 00:24:34,490 quite a lot
624 00:24:34,490 --> 00:24:35,490 and control
625 00:24:35,490 --> 00:24:36,490 quite a lot.
626 00:24:36,490 --> 00:24:37,490 And then
627 00:24:37,490 --> 00:24:38,490 you get
628 00:24:38,490 --> 00:24:39,490 this movement
629 00:24:39,490 --> 00:24:40,490 when you
630 00:24:40,490 --> 00:24:41,490 start
631 00:24:41,490 --> 00:24:42,490 channelising
632 00:24:42,490 --> 00:24:43,490 and
633 00:24:43,490 --> 00:24:44,490 start
634 00:24:44,490 --> 00:24:45,490 organising
635 00:24:45,490 --> 00:24:46,490 you get
636 00:24:46,490 --> 00:24:47,490 what Venezuela
637 00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:48,490 is like
638 00:24:48,490 --> 00:24:49,490 Bolivia.
639 00:24:49,490 --> 00:24:50,490 Bolivia is
640 00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:51,490 mainly
641 00:24:51,490 --> 00:24:52,490 a
642 00:24:52,490 --> 00:24:53,490 people
643 00:24:53,490 --> 00:24:54,490 movement
644 00:24:54,490 --> 00:24:55,490 that
645 00:24:55,490 --> 00:24:56,490 was
646 00:24:56,490 --> 00:24:57,490 the best
647 00:24:57,490 --> 00:24:58,490 organised
648 00:24:58,490 --> 00:24:59,490 and could
649 00:24:59,490 --> 00:25:00,490 channelise
650 00:25:00,490 --> 00:25:01,490 all
651 00:25:01,490 --> 00:25:02,490 this
652 00:25:02,490 --> 00:25:03,490 political
653 00:25:03,490 --> 00:25:04,490 resistance
654 00:25:04,490 --> 00:25:05,490 to
655 00:25:05,490 --> 00:25:06,490 neoliberalism
656 00:25:06,490 --> 00:25:07,490 for natural
657 00:25:07,490 --> 00:25:08,490 reasons.
658 00:25:08,490 --> 00:25:09,490 There were
659 00:25:09,490 --> 00:25:10,490 many
660 00:25:10,490 --> 00:25:11,490 but they
661 00:25:11,490 --> 00:25:12,490 also
662 00:25:12,490 --> 00:25:13,490 stood
663 00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:14,490 a bit
664 00:25:14,490 --> 00:25:15,490 outside
665 00:25:15,490 --> 00:25:16,490 of what
666 00:25:16,490 --> 00:25:17,490 the other
667 00:25:17,490 --> 00:25:18,490 left parties
668 00:25:18,490 --> 00:25:19,490 had done.
669 00:25:19,490 --> 00:25:20,490 In Venezuela
670 00:25:20,490 --> 00:25:21,490 it is actually
671 00:25:21,490 --> 00:25:22,490 the military
672 00:25:22,490 --> 00:25:23,490 officers
673 00:25:23,490 --> 00:25:24,490 who
674 00:25:24,490 --> 00:25:25,490 oppose
675 00:25:25,490 --> 00:25:26,490 the
676 00:25:26,490 --> 00:25:27,490 neoliberalism.
677 00:25:27,490 --> 00:25:28,490 And
678 00:25:28,490 --> 00:25:29,490 it has
679 00:25:29,490 --> 00:25:30,490 to do
680 00:25:30,490 --> 00:25:31,490 there are
681 00:25:31,490 --> 00:25:32,490 several
682 00:25:32,490 --> 00:25:33,490 different
683 00:25:33,490 --> 00:25:34,490 theories
684 00:25:34,490 --> 00:25:35,490 but one
685 00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:36,490 thing
686 00:25:36,490 --> 00:25:37,490 is that
687 00:25:37,490 --> 00:25:38,490 they had
688 00:25:38,490 --> 00:25:39,490 a structure
689 00:25:39,490 --> 00:25:40,490 in the
690 00:25:40,490 --> 00:25:41,490 military
691 00:25:41,490 --> 00:25:42,490 there was
692 00:25:42,490 --> 00:25:43,490 a structure
693 00:25:43,490 --> 00:25:44,490 that made
694 00:25:44,490 --> 00:25:45,490 it easier
695 00:25:45,490 --> 00:25:46,490 for the
696 00:25:46,490 --> 00:25:47,490 neoliberals
697 00:25:47,490 --> 00:25:48,490 and they
698 00:25:48,490 --> 00:25:49,490 became weaker
699 00:25:49,490 --> 00:25:50,490 and they
700 00:25:50,490 --> 00:25:51,490 made a lot
701 00:25:51,490 --> 00:25:52,490 of compromises
702 00:25:52,490 --> 00:25:53,490 here and
703 00:25:53,490 --> 00:25:54,490 there.
704 00:25:54,490 --> 00:25:55,490 So the
705 00:25:55,490 --> 00:25:56,490 military
706 00:25:56,490 --> 00:25:57,490 could
707 00:25:57,490 --> 00:25:58,490 find a
708 00:25:58,490 --> 00:25:59,490 channel
709 00:25:59,490 --> 00:26:00,490 that was
710 00:26:00,490 --> 00:26:01,490 much
711 00:26:01,490 --> 00:26:02,490 easier
712 00:26:02,490 --> 00:26:03,490 and
713 00:26:03,490 --> 00:26:04,490 organised.
714 00:26:04,490 --> 00:26:05,490 The other
715 00:26:05,490 --> 00:26:06,490 important thing
716 00:26:06,490 --> 00:26:07,490 is that
717 00:26:07,490 --> 00:26:08,490 the Bolivian
718 00:26:08,490 --> 00:26:09,490 idea
719 00:26:09,490 --> 00:26:10,490 of
720 00:26:10,490 --> 00:26:11,490 independence
721 00:26:11,490 --> 00:26:12,490 has always
722 00:26:12,490 --> 00:26:13,490 existed
723 00:26:13,490 --> 00:26:14,490 there.
724 00:26:14,490 --> 00:26:15,490 And
725 00:26:15,490 --> 00:26:16,490 the third
726 00:26:16,490 --> 00:26:17,490 thing
727 00:26:17,490 --> 00:26:18,490 that I
728 00:26:18,490 --> 00:26:19,490 would say
729 00:26:19,490 --> 00:26:20,490 is important
730 00:26:20,490 --> 00:26:21,490 that it
731 00:26:21,490 --> 00:26:22,490 is military
732 00:26:22,490 --> 00:26:23,490 and that
733 00:26:23,490 --> 00:26:24,490 it is
734 00:26:24,490 --> 00:26:25,490 just
735 00:26:25,490 --> 00:26:26,490 Chávez
736 00:26:26,490 --> 00:26:27,490 who
737 00:26:27,490 --> 00:26:28,490 is
738 00:26:28,490 --> 00:26:29,490 actually
739 00:26:29,490 --> 00:26:30,490 different
740 00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:31,490 from other
741 00:26:31,490 --> 00:26:32,490 countries.
742 00:26:32,490 --> 00:26:33,490 For example
743 00:26:33,490 --> 00:26:34,490 in Chile
744 00:26:34,490 --> 00:26:35,490 the
745 00:26:35,490 --> 00:26:36,490 defence
746 00:26:36,490 --> 00:26:37,490 forces
747 00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:38,490 have always
748 00:26:38,490 --> 00:26:39,490 had a
749 00:26:39,490 --> 00:26:40,490 class
750 00:26:40,490 --> 00:26:41,490 division.
751 00:26:41,490 --> 00:26:42,490 The
752 00:26:42,490 --> 00:26:43,490 officers
753 00:26:43,490 --> 00:26:44,490 have always
754 00:26:44,490 --> 00:26:45,490 had a
755 00:26:45,490 --> 00:26:46,490 class
756 00:26:46,490 --> 00:26:47,490 division.
757 00:26:47,490 --> 00:26:48,490 Whereas
758 00:26:48,490 --> 00:26:49,490 in Venezuela
759 00:26:49,490 --> 00:26:50,490 unlike most
760 00:26:50,490 --> 00:26:51,490 countries
761 00:26:51,490 --> 00:26:52,490 in Latin
762 00:26:52,490 --> 00:26:53,490 America
763 00:26:53,490 --> 00:26:54,490 a soldier
764 00:26:54,490 --> 00:26:55,490 could become
765 00:26:55,490 --> 00:26:56,490 an officer
766 00:26:56,490 --> 00:26:57,490 just like
767 00:26:57,490 --> 00:26:58,490 Chávez
768 00:26:58,490 --> 00:26:59,490 became.
769 00:26:59,490 --> 00:27:00,490 So Chávez
770 00:27:00,490 --> 00:27:01,490 comes from
771 00:27:01,490 --> 00:27:02,490 a poor
772 00:27:02,490 --> 00:27:03,490 family
773 00:27:03,490 --> 00:27:04,490 his parents
774 00:27:04,490 --> 00:27:05,490 were teachers
775 00:27:05,490 --> 00:27:06,490 and he
776 00:27:06,490 --> 00:27:07,490 didn't even
777 00:27:07,490 --> 00:27:08,490 come from
778 00:27:08,490 --> 00:27:09,490 Caracas
779 00:27:09,490 --> 00:27:10,490 he came
780 00:27:10,490 --> 00:27:11,490 from
781 00:27:11,490 --> 00:27:12,490 the
782 00:27:12,490 --> 00:27:13,490 capitals
783 00:27:13,490 --> 00:27:14,490 and he
784 00:27:14,490 --> 00:27:15,490 had a
785 00:27:15,490 --> 00:27:16,490 class
786 00:27:16,490 --> 00:27:17,490 division
787 00:27:17,490 --> 00:27:18,490 where he
788 00:27:18,490 --> 00:27:19,490 was
789 00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:20,490 a
790 00:27:20,490 --> 00:27:21,490 civil
791 00:27:21,490 --> 00:27:22,490 officer
792 00:27:22,490 --> 00:27:23,490 and he
793 00:27:23,490 --> 00:27:24,490 had
794 00:27:24,490 --> 00:27:25,490 a
795 00:27:25,490 --> 00:27:26,490 class
796 00:27:26,490 --> 00:27:27,490 division
797 00:27:27,490 --> 00:27:28,490 and he
798 00:27:28,490 --> 00:27:29,490 was
799 00:27:29,490 --> 00:27:30,490 in
800 00:27:30,490 --> 00:27:31,490 the
801 00:27:31,490 --> 00:27:32,490 police
802 00:27:32,490 --> 00:27:33,490 unit
803 00:27:33,490 --> 00:27:34,490 and he
804 00:27:34,490 --> 00:27:35,490 had
805 00:27:35,490 --> 00:27:36,490 the
806 00:27:36,490 --> 00:27:37,490 police
807 00:27:37,490 --> 00:27:38,490 unit
808 00:27:38,490 --> 00:27:39,490 as
809 00:27:39,490 --> 00:27:40,490 well as
810 00:27:40,490 --> 00:27:41,490 the
811 00:27:41,490 --> 00:27:47,010 What they do is, there are two, I would say two dates that are important here.
812 00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:53,230 The first is 1989, when the wall falls in Western Europe,
813 00:27:54,010 --> 00:27:58,130 there is an enormous revolt in Venezuela called Caracas,
814 00:27:58,450 --> 00:28:03,250 which comes from Caracas, a large event.
815 00:28:03,370 --> 00:28:07,150 It is people from the slum areas, from the mountains,
816 00:28:07,510 --> 00:28:09,670 who come down to the city and protest.
817 00:28:09,670 --> 00:28:13,870 And then the social democratic government,
818 00:28:13,870 --> 00:28:15,690 which was a neoliberal government,
819 00:28:16,030 --> 00:28:21,410 they take out the military and kill maybe 6-8 thousand people.
820 00:28:21,710 --> 00:28:24,270 It is something that you hardly know about.
821 00:28:25,110 --> 00:28:27,750 That today murder 6-8 thousand people,
822 00:28:27,990 --> 00:28:32,390 if you do that, it would be an enormous new thing.
823 00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:34,830 Then there was no one who cared about it.
824 00:28:35,370 --> 00:28:36,270 I don't know if you know it.
825 00:28:36,930 --> 00:28:39,070 It was the first big one, and it was very unusual.
826 00:28:39,670 --> 00:28:43,230 It was not organized, there was no real organization behind it.
827 00:28:43,230 --> 00:28:47,830 It was more spontaneous, where you went out and protested against poverty,
828 00:28:48,150 --> 00:28:49,310 neoliberalism and so on.
829 00:28:50,050 --> 00:28:51,870 And what happens is that in 1992,
830 00:28:52,870 --> 00:28:56,550 then it is Chavez and other officers who were Bolivarians
831 00:28:56,550 --> 00:29:00,590 who carried out a state coup that was totally failed.
832 00:29:02,170 --> 00:29:07,930 And what happens with Chavez, who is very dumb and thinks he is the leader,
833 00:29:07,930 --> 00:29:09,630 is that he goes out.
834 00:29:09,670 --> 00:29:13,270 He goes out in the media, on TV, when they understand that they have failed.
835 00:29:13,430 --> 00:29:14,290 And then he goes out and says,
836 00:29:14,830 --> 00:29:18,090 OK, we failed for the present, he says.
837 00:29:18,470 --> 00:29:20,970 It became a kind of, for a year, he says, for the present.
838 00:29:21,190 --> 00:29:22,030 For a moment.
839 00:29:22,610 --> 00:29:23,590 Yes, for a moment, exactly.
840 00:29:23,710 --> 00:29:26,250 And then he recognizes that they have done it.
841 00:29:26,350 --> 00:29:28,150 Unlike, many times they say,
842 00:29:29,010 --> 00:29:32,770 Chavez tried to carry out a state coup.
843 00:29:32,910 --> 00:29:34,690 Yes, he was a coup.
844 00:29:34,830 --> 00:29:37,350 He wanted to carry out a state coup, but he recognized it.
845 00:29:37,670 --> 00:29:39,210 And he took on his responsibility.
846 00:29:39,670 --> 00:29:43,930 And that also made him get, his leadership increased enormously.
847 00:29:44,590 --> 00:29:47,910 He strengthened enormously when he still said that we have failed,
848 00:29:48,050 --> 00:29:50,050 and then he went to prison and was put in prison.
849 00:29:50,830 --> 00:29:54,170 And then his leadership started, he started to get famous.
850 00:29:54,870 --> 00:29:59,790 Maduro's wife, Silja Flores, who is now in New York,
851 00:30:00,270 --> 00:30:02,390 she was a lawyer then, a young lawyer.
852 00:30:03,030 --> 00:30:06,250 And she was one of those who defended Chavez in 1992.
853 00:30:07,110 --> 00:30:08,870 Just so you understand the anecdote,
854 00:30:08,870 --> 00:30:09,470 that she was a lawyer.
855 00:30:09,470 --> 00:30:09,550 She was a lawyer.
856 00:30:09,550 --> 00:30:09,590 She was a lawyer.
857 00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:09,650 She was a lawyer.
858 00:30:09,750 --> 00:30:09,770 She was a lawyer.
859 00:30:09,770 --> 00:30:09,950 She was a lawyer.
860 00:30:09,950 --> 00:30:10,070 She was a lawyer.
861 00:30:10,070 --> 00:30:10,150 She was a lawyer.
862 00:30:10,150 --> 00:30:10,250 She was a lawyer.
863 00:30:10,250 --> 00:30:10,270 She was a lawyer.
864 00:30:10,270 --> 00:30:10,310 She was a lawyer.
865 00:30:10,310 --> 00:30:10,370 She was a lawyer.
866 00:30:10,450 --> 00:30:11,230 She was a lawyer.
867 00:30:11,330 --> 00:30:16,950 She was in the good, young lawyers who had also been active
868 00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:19,990 and defended him together with others.
869 00:30:20,330 --> 00:30:23,090 Then he came out in 1994.
870 00:30:23,790 --> 00:30:25,590 And then they started discussing what to do.
871 00:30:26,950 --> 00:30:30,050 Then the right side was paralyzed.
872 00:30:30,550 --> 00:30:34,270 It was difficult to come up with any political initiatives.
873 00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:38,030 And the left had come together with the Social Democrats
874 00:30:38,030 --> 00:30:39,610 and, most of all, the Central.
875 00:30:39,610 --> 00:30:39,650 And the right had come together with the Social Democrats
876 00:30:39,650 --> 00:30:41,830 or right-wing parties and so on.
877 00:30:42,130 --> 00:30:45,270 What you compromise is that you let him out in 1994.
878 00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:49,150 And then he goes to...
879 00:30:49,150 --> 00:30:51,890 He tells that he goes first to Mexico,
880 00:30:52,110 --> 00:30:56,850 because in Mexico there is a big leftist meeting for all of Latin America,
881 00:30:57,510 --> 00:31:02,870 where they had gathered, and where Lula and others had begun to plan
882 00:31:02,870 --> 00:31:05,830 that the left would try to win elections,
883 00:31:05,830 --> 00:31:08,470 instead of continuing to demonstrate.
884 00:31:09,290 --> 00:31:12,130 And in some countries there was armed resistance,
885 00:31:12,610 --> 00:31:16,510 so he wanted not only Lula, but several other leftist movements and parties
886 00:31:16,510 --> 00:31:18,730 to take over the political power.
887 00:31:19,410 --> 00:31:22,630 And then you had a meeting in 1994 in Mexico,
888 00:31:22,790 --> 00:31:23,870 and then Chavez comes there.
889 00:31:24,910 --> 00:31:27,330 But when he wanted to talk, he didn't get it.
890 00:31:27,830 --> 00:31:29,310 He said, you're a military,
891 00:31:30,310 --> 00:31:33,250 and you've carried out a coup, you don't belong to the left.
892 00:31:33,250 --> 00:31:35,410 He wasn't an outspoken leftist.
893 00:31:35,830 --> 00:31:36,070 No.
894 00:31:36,570 --> 00:31:38,650 But it was so clear, and I understand that.
895 00:31:39,250 --> 00:31:41,830 I met a friend who was part of that meeting,
896 00:31:41,930 --> 00:31:44,790 and he came from Chile, an older man from Chile,
897 00:31:44,970 --> 00:31:47,910 who was part of one of the political parties from Chile, the left parties.
898 00:31:48,350 --> 00:31:52,530 He was part of it, and then there comes a man who is a military officer,
899 00:31:53,090 --> 00:31:54,830 and has tried to carry out a coup.
900 00:31:55,470 --> 00:31:57,890 Of course, we couldn't let him in,
901 00:31:58,010 --> 00:32:00,670 so he was excluded from that meeting.
902 00:32:00,970 --> 00:32:02,210 He wasn't allowed to be part of it.
903 00:32:03,210 --> 00:32:04,730 And guess who takes him?
904 00:32:05,830 --> 00:32:09,310 That year, when he was blocked from the entire left in Latin America.
905 00:32:09,410 --> 00:32:12,470 But there are at least a few there who welcome him.
906 00:32:13,190 --> 00:32:13,950 Guess who it is?
907 00:32:15,570 --> 00:32:16,850 No, I can't guess.
908 00:32:18,110 --> 00:32:18,950 Fidel Castro.
909 00:32:19,670 --> 00:32:20,990 Fidel Castro, of course.
910 00:32:22,750 --> 00:32:26,630 He takes himself to Cuba and talks to Fidel Castro.
911 00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:29,010 There it turns in Latin America.
912 00:32:29,150 --> 00:32:31,930 Then you start to understand that he might not be that dangerous.
913 00:32:32,310 --> 00:32:34,550 You know, the Cubans, just like I said in the beginning,
914 00:32:35,830 --> 00:32:37,270 when they carry out the revolution,
915 00:32:37,270 --> 00:32:40,270 they are in the first hand nationalist,
916 00:32:40,270 --> 00:32:44,070 but they also have an ideologue who is Martí,
917 00:32:44,070 --> 00:32:48,070 José Martí, the poet, and also Kjempe.
918 00:32:48,590 --> 00:32:51,890 So they could talk about Martí and Bolívar,
919 00:32:51,890 --> 00:32:58,750 two heroes in the self-determination movement in Latin America.
920 00:32:58,950 --> 00:33:00,470 So they understood each other.
921 00:33:01,110 --> 00:33:04,890 And when he, after the meeting with Fidel Castro,
922 00:33:04,890 --> 00:33:05,230 he came back to Cuba,
923 00:33:05,230 --> 00:33:05,530 he came back to Cuba,
924 00:33:05,530 --> 00:33:05,790 he came back to Cuba,
925 00:33:05,790 --> 00:33:05,810 he came back to Cuba,
926 00:33:05,830 --> 00:33:08,410 he came back to Venezuela,
927 00:33:08,770 --> 00:33:10,070 so they have made an important decision.
928 00:33:10,930 --> 00:33:15,390 And that is that they are going to challenge the right
929 00:33:15,390 --> 00:33:18,970 and the old left in the political power.
930 00:33:19,290 --> 00:33:21,710 That they are going to win elections, simply.
931 00:33:22,130 --> 00:33:23,790 And then they start to build up a movement.
932 00:33:24,490 --> 00:33:26,310 And that movement consists of,
933 00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:29,310 in principle, there are very, very many officers
934 00:33:29,310 --> 00:33:33,450 who are young officers, Bolivarianos, of course.
935 00:33:33,450 --> 00:33:35,790 But then there are also two others,
936 00:33:35,790 --> 00:33:39,350 there is a movement that comes from the left,
937 00:33:39,350 --> 00:33:44,730 that is, a lot of people from the left who are dissatisfied with the old left parties,
938 00:33:44,730 --> 00:33:48,330 from the Communist Party, the Socialist Party, and other parties.
939 00:33:48,330 --> 00:33:50,830 They also participate in this.
940 00:33:50,830 --> 00:33:55,130 And then there is a movement that Chávez manages to read off.
941 00:33:55,130 --> 00:33:57,170 It is a movement that exists in all of these countries.
942 00:33:57,170 --> 00:34:00,350 And it is people who, from the beginning,
943 00:34:00,350 --> 00:34:04,250 come from the countryside and small towns,
944 00:34:04,250 --> 00:34:05,490 and who, based on the fact that they are young,
945 00:34:05,490 --> 00:34:08,550 due to neoliberalism, move to the big cities.
946 00:34:08,550 --> 00:34:12,250 And there they are very poor, live in poor conditions,
947 00:34:12,250 --> 00:34:16,010 and they build up their own houses in these big cities.
948 00:34:16,010 --> 00:34:19,550 So when you are in Latin America, you can see in several of these countries
949 00:34:19,550 --> 00:34:24,550 that there are almost like their own cities that have been built up by the poor.
950 00:34:24,550 --> 00:34:25,730 And that is also in Caracas.
951 00:34:25,730 --> 00:34:29,850 So when you come to Caracas, from the airport to Caracas,
952 00:34:29,850 --> 00:34:31,010 you can see a lot of mountains.
953 00:34:31,010 --> 00:34:35,110 And you can see that up in the mountains there are a lot of slum areas.
954 00:34:35,110 --> 00:34:36,770 And that is people themselves who have built them.
955 00:34:36,770 --> 00:34:42,170 They who moved from, mainly from small places in the countryside to Caracas
956 00:34:42,170 --> 00:34:44,850 in order to survive in the first place.
957 00:34:44,850 --> 00:34:49,090 These groups are not political in that way.
958 00:34:49,090 --> 00:34:54,870 But they are against neoliberalism and they are against how they live.
959 00:34:54,870 --> 00:34:58,290 And Chávez manages to channelize these.
960 00:34:58,290 --> 00:35:03,110 These three movements would say that it becomes the basis for what Chávez is today.
961 00:35:03,110 --> 00:35:04,410 Which also makes it so that when you understand well what he is saying,
962 00:35:04,410 --> 00:35:05,110 which is very important, Chávez is basically the foundation of what is going on today, Chavismo, which makes it so that when you understand well,
963 00:35:05,110 --> 00:35:16,110 So you understand why there are so many military people who become ministers in Venezuela, for example, which is not always the case in other countries.
964 00:35:16,110 --> 00:35:29,110 Why you have also, in many different ways, worked a lot with what you call the popular or the municipalities that organize themselves.
965 00:35:29,110 --> 00:35:34,110 Because it was there before. It is a movement that existed and came along.
966 00:35:34,110 --> 00:35:43,110 And then you have this left-wing theory and left-wing rhetoric that comes, but which in the beginning was not so prominent.
967 00:35:43,110 --> 00:35:57,110 It was not until 2005 that Chávez talked about socialism. Before that, they talked a lot about the foster country, Bolivarianism, Bolivarian thinking, and so on.
968 00:35:57,110 --> 00:36:03,110 So Bolivarian thinking was important first, and then socialism came.
969 00:36:03,110 --> 00:36:04,110 Yes.
970 00:36:04,110 --> 00:36:09,110 And then it came into a later stage, as they began to call themselves socialist.
971 00:36:09,110 --> 00:36:20,110 But I think it is enormously exciting with this movement with municipalities and popular power and the movement from below.
972 00:36:20,110 --> 00:36:33,110 Because it also occurs at the same time in several Latin American countries that the Zapatistas found their municipalism or their autonomy in that movement.
973 00:36:33,110 --> 00:36:43,110 And you have in Brazil, you have the landless bands around the Moemento Sem Terra, which becomes a mass movement with land occupations.
974 00:36:43,110 --> 00:36:49,110 And you have the same as in Bolivia and in several countries.
975 00:36:49,110 --> 00:36:54,110 And I know my great guru is Antonio Negril.
976 00:36:54,110 --> 00:37:00,110 He wrote a book in prison called Il Potere Constituente, The Constituent Power.
977 00:37:00,110 --> 00:37:01,110 And one of his few who read that book.
978 00:37:01,110 --> 00:37:02,110 And one of his few who read that book.
979 00:37:02,110 --> 00:37:05,110 There is almost no one who has read it.
980 00:37:05,110 --> 00:37:08,110 It was Chavez who read it when he was sitting.
981 00:37:08,110 --> 00:37:12,110 And just how a revolution...
982 00:37:12,110 --> 00:37:15,110 Chavez won the election.
983 00:37:15,110 --> 00:37:20,110 He became president in the general election, so to speak.
984 00:37:20,110 --> 00:37:25,110 When he got the power, this circle, it was not through a state coup.
985 00:37:25,110 --> 00:37:30,110 But afterwards, this anchor came, so to speak.
986 00:37:30,110 --> 00:37:35,110 To bring down the revolution and build the municipalities.
987 00:37:35,110 --> 00:37:37,110 Collaborate with the municipalities.
988 00:37:37,110 --> 00:37:41,110 Collaborate with the Barrios movement.
989 00:37:41,110 --> 00:37:43,110 The slum area.
990 00:37:43,110 --> 00:37:44,110 The Kåkstads movement.
991 00:37:44,110 --> 00:37:48,110 And build all that structure.
992 00:37:48,110 --> 00:37:50,110 So that there was...
993 00:37:50,110 --> 00:37:57,110 That there was a change that was both parallel from above and from below.
994 00:37:57,110 --> 00:37:58,110 In Venezuela.
995 00:37:58,110 --> 00:37:59,110 In this.
996 00:37:59,110 --> 00:38:01,110 In this.
997 00:38:01,110 --> 00:38:06,110 And that movement is very interesting to follow.
998 00:38:06,110 --> 00:38:09,110 Because it is still there today.
999 00:38:09,110 --> 00:38:12,110 In some form, too.
1000 00:38:12,110 --> 00:38:15,110 I thought about...
1001 00:38:15,110 --> 00:38:19,110 This is not as unique as you say.
1002 00:38:19,110 --> 00:38:23,110 About what is called popular power.
1003 00:38:23,110 --> 00:38:26,110 People's power.
1004 00:38:26,110 --> 00:38:27,110 I know...
1005 00:38:27,110 --> 00:38:29,110 I come from a family that...
1006 00:38:29,110 --> 00:38:30,110 That was...
1007 00:38:30,110 --> 00:38:31,110 Agendistas.
1008 00:38:31,110 --> 00:38:32,110 Agende.
1009 00:38:32,110 --> 00:38:33,110 And came from...
1010 00:38:33,110 --> 00:38:34,110 From, so to speak...
1011 00:38:34,110 --> 00:38:36,110 They were active in political parties.
1012 00:38:36,110 --> 00:38:38,110 And then they won the election in 1970.
1013 00:38:38,110 --> 00:38:40,110 And then came up in 1973 and so on.
1014 00:38:40,110 --> 00:38:42,110 They were very...
1015 00:38:42,110 --> 00:38:43,110 I would say...
1016 00:38:43,110 --> 00:38:44,110 They came from the more...
1017 00:38:44,110 --> 00:38:46,110 The traditional left.
1018 00:38:46,110 --> 00:38:53,110 That built up its political movement through the Kastkamp and the faction movement in general.
1019 00:38:53,110 --> 00:38:56,110 And the whole idea was always that you would win elections.
1020 00:38:56,110 --> 00:38:57,110 And then...
1021 00:38:57,110 --> 00:38:58,110 Through the state.
1022 00:38:58,110 --> 00:39:00,110 Through all these reforms.
1023 00:39:00,110 --> 00:39:02,110 I came from that tradition.
1024 00:39:02,110 --> 00:39:05,110 And it was Agende who was, so to speak...
1025 00:39:05,110 --> 00:39:09,110 Who became the leader of the whole role in Chile.
1026 00:39:09,110 --> 00:39:12,110 But in parallel with them, there was in Chile...
1027 00:39:12,110 --> 00:39:15,110 Also what is called popular power.
1028 00:39:15,110 --> 00:39:16,110 People's power.
1029 00:39:16,110 --> 00:39:17,110 And I...
1030 00:39:17,110 --> 00:39:19,110 As it has always been, so to speak...
1031 00:39:19,110 --> 00:39:23,110 Confrontations between the more statistical parties.
1032 00:39:23,110 --> 00:39:24,110 That is, the state.
1033 00:39:24,110 --> 00:39:26,110 And this popular power people.
1034 00:39:26,110 --> 00:39:27,110 So...
1035 00:39:27,110 --> 00:39:28,110 I was a bit...
1036 00:39:28,110 --> 00:39:31,110 I thought that Agende and the state were...
1037 00:39:31,110 --> 00:39:32,110 They were the good ones.
1038 00:39:32,110 --> 00:39:34,110 And the others were a bit...
1039 00:39:34,110 --> 00:39:35,110 Difficult to understand.
1040 00:39:35,110 --> 00:39:36,110 A bit crazy.
1041 00:39:36,110 --> 00:39:37,110 Blah, blah, blah.
1042 00:39:37,110 --> 00:39:38,110 And so...
1043 00:39:38,110 --> 00:39:39,110 I had...
1044 00:39:39,110 --> 00:39:40,110 You had a hard time...
1045 00:39:40,110 --> 00:39:42,110 I thought it was hard to get close to them and understand them.
1046 00:39:42,110 --> 00:39:43,110 But then...
1047 00:39:43,110 --> 00:39:45,110 When neoliberalism came...
1048 00:39:45,110 --> 00:39:48,110 You start to understand that...
1049 00:39:48,110 --> 00:39:49,110 This...
1050 00:39:49,110 --> 00:39:51,110 Resistance to neoliberalism...
1051 00:39:51,110 --> 00:39:53,110 Expressed in different ways.
1052 00:39:53,110 --> 00:39:56,110 And among them was this popular organization.
1053 00:39:56,110 --> 00:40:00,110 The important thing with these popular organizations was that they were not co-opted.
1054 00:40:00,110 --> 00:40:01,110 So they were not...
1055 00:40:01,110 --> 00:40:03,110 They were not included in the power.
1056 00:40:03,110 --> 00:40:04,110 So to speak.
1057 00:40:04,110 --> 00:40:05,110 The leaders of the organization.
1058 00:40:05,110 --> 00:40:06,110 But they were parallel.
1059 00:40:06,110 --> 00:40:07,110 So that...
1060 00:40:07,110 --> 00:40:08,110 For example...
1061 00:40:08,110 --> 00:40:11,110 In Bolivia, it is of course that these different...
1062 00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:14,110 Original people's organizations...
1063 00:40:14,110 --> 00:40:17,110 So all of their organization was outside, so to speak...
1064 00:40:17,110 --> 00:40:19,110 The legal constitutional power.
1065 00:40:19,110 --> 00:40:20,110 And...
1066 00:40:20,110 --> 00:40:21,110 That made them then...
1067 00:40:21,110 --> 00:40:23,110 Be able to take the political power.
1068 00:40:23,110 --> 00:40:25,110 Without being part of it.
1069 00:40:25,110 --> 00:40:27,110 And then there are several other examples.
1070 00:40:27,110 --> 00:40:28,110 But...
1071 00:40:28,110 --> 00:40:29,110 In Chile, there was...
1072 00:40:29,110 --> 00:40:31,110 There was a criticism...
1073 00:40:31,110 --> 00:40:32,110 That you...
1074 00:40:32,110 --> 00:40:33,110 Provided to Allende.
1075 00:40:33,110 --> 00:40:34,110 It was that...
1076 00:40:34,110 --> 00:40:35,110 You mean that you could not...
1077 00:40:35,110 --> 00:40:36,110 Only build...
1078 00:40:36,110 --> 00:40:37,110 So to speak...
1079 00:40:37,110 --> 00:40:38,110 Power on the state.
1080 00:40:38,110 --> 00:40:39,110 But Allende was very...
1081 00:40:39,110 --> 00:40:40,110 What you call him...
1082 00:40:40,110 --> 00:40:41,110 What you call him for...
1083 00:40:41,110 --> 00:40:42,110 Very constitutional.
1084 00:40:42,110 --> 00:40:43,110 So he followed the constitution.
1085 00:40:43,110 --> 00:40:44,110 And he...
1086 00:40:44,110 --> 00:40:45,110 Allende...
1087 00:40:45,110 --> 00:40:46,110 Also believed in...
1088 00:40:46,110 --> 00:40:47,110 For example...
1089 00:40:47,110 --> 00:40:48,110 The army.
1090 00:40:48,110 --> 00:40:49,110 So that the army...
1091 00:40:49,110 --> 00:40:50,110 That...
1092 00:40:50,110 --> 00:40:51,110 The defense forces...
1093 00:40:51,110 --> 00:40:52,110 Pinochet and them...
1094 00:40:52,110 --> 00:40:53,110 Would...
1095 00:40:53,110 --> 00:40:54,110 Respect the constitution.
1096 00:40:54,110 --> 00:40:55,110 And...
1097 00:40:55,110 --> 00:40:56,110 The constitutional power.
1098 00:40:56,110 --> 00:40:57,110 But you mean it...
1099 00:40:57,110 --> 00:40:58,110 From...
1100 00:40:58,110 --> 00:40:59,110 So to speak...
1101 00:40:59,110 --> 00:41:00,110 These different...
1102 00:41:00,110 --> 00:41:01,110 From the left and everything...
1103 00:41:01,110 --> 00:41:02,110 That...
1104 00:41:02,110 --> 00:41:03,110 Talks about people's power.
1105 00:41:03,110 --> 00:41:04,110 That you...
1106 00:41:04,110 --> 00:41:05,110 That you...
1107 00:41:05,110 --> 00:41:06,110 That you...
1108 00:41:06,110 --> 00:41:07,110 Must build...
1109 00:41:07,110 --> 00:41:08,110 So to speak...
1110 00:41:08,110 --> 00:41:09,110 Your own power.
1111 00:41:09,110 --> 00:41:10,110 In order to be able...
1112 00:41:10,110 --> 00:41:11,110 To resist...
1113 00:41:11,110 --> 00:41:12,110 So to speak...
1114 00:41:12,110 --> 00:41:13,110 The state power...
1115 00:41:13,110 --> 00:41:14,110 That was...
1116 00:41:14,110 --> 00:41:15,110 So to speak...
1117 00:41:15,110 --> 00:41:16,110 Civil power.
1118 00:41:16,110 --> 00:41:17,110 You mean then.
1119 00:41:17,110 --> 00:41:18,110 So that...
1120 00:41:18,110 --> 00:41:19,110 That...
1121 00:41:19,110 --> 00:41:20,110 And that decision existed.
1122 00:41:20,110 --> 00:41:21,110 And I know that several of them...
1123 00:41:21,110 --> 00:41:22,110 Who then...
1124 00:41:22,110 --> 00:41:23,110 Was leader in...
1125 00:41:23,110 --> 00:41:24,110 Among other things in Brazil.
1126 00:41:24,110 --> 00:41:25,110 But also...
1127 00:41:25,110 --> 00:41:26,110 Came to Chile.
1128 00:41:26,110 --> 00:41:27,110 To see...
1129 00:41:27,110 --> 00:41:28,110 What happened there in the 70's.
1130 00:41:28,110 --> 00:41:29,110 And then...
1131 00:41:29,110 --> 00:41:30,110 Even those from Venezuela.
1132 00:41:30,110 --> 00:41:31,110 Several of the Venezuelans there...
1133 00:41:31,110 --> 00:41:32,110 Came to the right.
1134 00:41:32,110 --> 00:41:33,110 And to the left.
1135 00:41:33,110 --> 00:41:34,110 Also came to Chile.
1136 00:41:34,110 --> 00:41:35,110 So to speak.
1137 00:41:35,110 --> 00:41:36,110 To see what was going on.
1138 00:41:36,110 --> 00:41:37,110 Because it was something...
1139 00:41:37,110 --> 00:41:38,110 Something very special.
1140 00:41:38,110 --> 00:41:39,110 You had...
1141 00:41:39,110 --> 00:41:40,110 Imagine that you had...
1142 00:41:40,110 --> 00:41:41,110 Killed...
1143 00:41:41,110 --> 00:41:42,110 Che Guevara...
1144 00:41:42,110 --> 00:41:43,110 In 1967.
1145 00:41:43,110 --> 00:41:44,110 And then you had...
1146 00:41:44,110 --> 00:41:45,110 The armed resistance...
1147 00:41:45,110 --> 00:41:46,110 Had...
1148 00:41:46,110 --> 00:41:47,110 So to speak...
1149 00:41:47,110 --> 00:41:48,110 Was a bit...
1150 00:41:48,110 --> 00:41:49,110 And then...
1151 00:41:49,110 --> 00:41:50,110 Agenda came and became...
1152 00:41:50,110 --> 00:41:51,110 So to speak...
1153 00:41:51,110 --> 00:41:52,110 Yes, but this might be an alternative...
1154 00:41:52,110 --> 00:41:53,110 For the left.
1155 00:41:53,110 --> 00:41:54,110 And so on.
1156 00:41:54,110 --> 00:41:55,110 And then there was...
1157 00:41:55,110 --> 00:41:56,110 A debate about it...
1158 00:41:56,110 --> 00:41:57,110 And then...
1159 00:41:57,110 --> 00:41:58,110 Then it was...
1160 00:41:58,110 --> 00:41:59,110 And then they moved...
1161 00:41:59,110 --> 00:42:00,110 To their countries.
1162 00:42:00,110 --> 00:42:01,110 Or to exile...
1163 00:42:01,110 --> 00:42:02,110 And then it came back...
1164 00:42:02,110 --> 00:42:03,110 To Brazil...
1165 00:42:03,110 --> 00:42:04,110 Argentina...
1166 00:42:04,110 --> 00:42:05,110 And so on...
1167 00:42:05,110 --> 00:42:06,110 Then you start talking about...
1168 00:42:06,110 --> 00:42:07,110 This...
1169 00:42:07,110 --> 00:42:08,110 That we...
1170 00:42:08,110 --> 00:42:09,110 Can't at all...
1171 00:42:09,110 --> 00:42:10,110 Put everyone...
1172 00:42:10,110 --> 00:42:11,110 On the same basket.
1173 00:42:11,110 --> 00:42:12,110 I mean...
1174 00:42:12,110 --> 00:42:13,110 The state...
1175 00:42:13,110 --> 00:42:14,110 Instead...
1176 00:42:14,110 --> 00:42:15,110 We must build...
1177 00:42:15,110 --> 00:42:16,110 Our own power...
1178 00:42:16,110 --> 00:42:17,110 I mean...
1179 00:42:17,110 --> 00:42:18,110 People's power...
1180 00:42:18,110 --> 00:42:19,110 But with the neoliberalism...
1181 00:42:19,110 --> 00:42:20,110 Of course it is...
1182 00:42:20,110 --> 00:42:21,110 That it is...
1183 00:42:21,110 --> 00:42:22,110 Coming up...
1184 00:42:22,110 --> 00:42:23,110 Many...
1185 00:42:23,110 --> 00:42:24,110 Many...
1186 00:42:24,110 --> 00:42:44,390 The factories, the occupied factories in Argentina, you have the Zapatistas, Juntas de Buen Gobierno and Caracoles were also Zapatistas, but even in Colombia there was the so-called experience of Cauca Colombiano, so there were also types of municipalities that organized themselves against power and so on.
1187 00:42:44,390 --> 00:43:08,050 There are many different types, for example, and as I said earlier, one of the movements that was not as organized, but that existed there in Venezuela, were the poor in the slums that themselves had built up their houses and roads and runways and electricity, supply, you name it, everything.
1188 00:43:08,050 --> 00:43:09,290 They existed there.
1189 00:43:10,050 --> 00:43:14,050 So Chávez, the first thing you do, and it was in...
1190 00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:35,310 One of his political laws was that he would write a new constitution, actually, and that's what you do, and there comes the poder constituyente, as you were talking about, so you actually start talking about that you should, in the constitution, make sure to write something about just the popular power,
1191 00:43:35,310 --> 00:43:43,710 which is not the constitutional power and the power of the state and so on, and then you start working on it.
1192 00:43:43,790 --> 00:43:44,310 Then it becomes a constitution.
1193 00:43:44,390 --> 00:44:06,390 It becomes a constitutional assembly, you write a new constitution, and so on, and then you start working on it, so this came first, the idea did not come first, but the practice came first, because there was a social, what is called a social debt, that is to say, all the poor in Venezuela,
1194 00:44:06,390 --> 00:44:13,390 those who talk about it being better before, before Chávez, so when Chávez took over, 80% of the people were completely...
1195 00:44:14,390 --> 00:44:26,990 poor, and then there was a group that was very, very rich, who went to Miami every weekend and traded, and then they traded not one thing, but two things at the same time, the same thing, and you know, and so on.
1196 00:44:26,990 --> 00:44:42,990 And then you start, so this social debt makes it the first, one of the first things that Chávez does is to make sure to pay this social debt, and then there were at least two...
1197 00:44:44,390 --> 00:45:12,990 instruments, one is that from the state, you start something called misiones, you know, it's a little religious behind that, but misiones is that the state, and it is the oil money, the resources from which it goes to pay the social debts, and then there are different types of misiones, of course, education, different types for misiones, but also for food, dining halls, and so on.
1198 00:45:12,990 --> 00:45:13,790 It's an enormous...
1199 00:45:13,790 --> 00:45:14,190 It's an enormous...
1200 00:45:14,190 --> 00:45:14,390 It's an enormous...
1201 00:45:14,390 --> 00:45:26,590 movement within the misiones, so it's money that comes from up there, but then there's another movement that comes from under, and these are the ones that are called consejos comunales, so the municipal councils that are made.
1202 00:45:27,190 --> 00:45:43,590 It was at the beginning, so they're called different things, but in the point of the consejo comunales, for example, you had problems with water in a slum, and then you had a consejo de aguas, so it was around water.
1203 00:45:43,590 --> 00:45:49,590 Or was it Engmarken? There were several different ones, and it was a movement from the bottom.
1204 00:45:49,590 --> 00:45:51,590 Consultas, yes.
1205 00:45:51,590 --> 00:45:54,590 Yes, exactly. And that was what came.
1206 00:45:54,590 --> 00:46:01,590 The whole movement was formed in a law that came in 2006 around the municipalities.
1207 00:46:01,590 --> 00:46:05,590 It was there that they made a law out of it.
1208 00:46:05,590 --> 00:46:12,590 That these different municipalities and other movements began to become a legal unit in a way.
1209 00:46:12,590 --> 00:46:15,590 That they were recognized, but the practice came before, so to speak.
1210 00:46:15,590 --> 00:46:26,590 And then the last big move around the municipality came in 2010, when they updated the whole idea of the municipality.
1211 00:46:26,590 --> 00:46:28,590 And then it was very, very political.
1212 00:46:28,590 --> 00:46:33,590 I remember that I met one of the people who worked with it, one of the big lawyers there.
1213 00:46:33,590 --> 00:46:39,590 And he said that the inspiration came from the municipality of Paris.
1214 00:46:39,590 --> 00:46:41,590 The idea was that the municipalities...
1215 00:46:41,590 --> 00:46:42,590 Yes.
1216 00:46:42,590 --> 00:46:49,590 The idea was that they would be the ones who chose, voted, and then implemented.
1217 00:46:49,590 --> 00:46:54,590 That they got the power all the way.
1218 00:46:54,590 --> 00:46:58,590 That they would not vote for something and let others do it.
1219 00:46:58,590 --> 00:47:03,590 The idea was that they would come up with the idea, that they would decide which idea it was, and then vote for it.
1220 00:47:03,590 --> 00:47:07,590 But then also that they would be the ones who implemented the idea.
1221 00:47:07,590 --> 00:47:08,590 All the way.
1222 00:47:08,590 --> 00:47:10,590 Just like the municipality of Paris.
1223 00:47:10,590 --> 00:47:11,590 The idea came from there, mainly.
1224 00:47:11,590 --> 00:47:14,590 And now you can correct me if I'm wrong.
1225 00:47:14,590 --> 00:47:25,590 But I understand that what Chavez does is, in practice, by connecting to that movement, that a form of parallel structure is being built.
1226 00:47:25,590 --> 00:47:32,590 That you have healthcare, and then you have public health centers, public hospitals.
1227 00:47:32,590 --> 00:47:38,590 And those municipalities are not just advisory, but it's just as it says.
1228 00:47:38,590 --> 00:47:40,590 That they have the power to execute.
1229 00:47:40,590 --> 00:47:50,590 And will also get a role later, when the sanctions start, to also try to get a production started.
1230 00:47:50,590 --> 00:47:53,590 Food production, another form of production.
1231 00:47:53,590 --> 00:47:56,590 So that it's a production that comes from below.
1232 00:47:56,590 --> 00:48:07,590 That it's the way that all of this, what to say, the poor people of Venezuela, try to get through.
1233 00:48:07,590 --> 00:48:09,590 When the oil money runs out.
1234 00:48:09,590 --> 00:48:10,590 In this year.
1235 00:48:10,590 --> 00:48:17,590 This year, it is not as if we have bad weather conditions.
1236 00:48:17,590 --> 00:48:18,590 A lot is happening here.
1237 00:48:18,590 --> 00:48:21,590 This year, it is a lot of bad weather conditions.
1238 00:48:21,590 --> 00:48:26,590 Because, in general, because of this pandemic, all of this is being done, it is being done, getting rid of.
1239 00:48:26,590 --> 00:48:27,590 We're not there yet.
1240 00:48:27,590 --> 00:48:28,590 That's a lot of work.
1241 00:48:28,590 --> 00:48:29,590 Because we don't havevasas.
1242 00:48:29,590 --> 00:48:30,590 We don't have workers, who are not there.
1243 00:48:30,590 --> 00:48:31,590 And it's a lot of work.
1244 00:48:31,590 --> 00:48:32,590 It's a lot of work.
1245 00:48:32,590 --> 00:48:33,590 And if we don't do what we're doing, what is it?
1246 00:48:33,590 --> 00:48:35,590 And the problem is that we have bad weather conditions.
1247 00:48:35,590 --> 00:48:36,590 And that's not a problem for us, we have a problem for everyone.
1248 00:48:36,590 --> 00:48:37,590 We have to get rid of it.
1249 00:48:37,590 --> 00:48:38,590 But it's a problem for us.
1250 00:48:38,590 --> 00:48:59,470 The first thing they do is, when he wins the election, the first thing they do is that the embassy comes with a paper with the ministers that they considered to be nice and that should be included in a government.
1251 00:48:59,470 --> 00:49:16,690 And then Chavez said, I will not look at this paper as if it was more than that. And then came the 2002 parliament, which lasted for two or three days, and then he came back again.
1252 00:49:16,690 --> 00:49:28,350 And in 2003, they carried out an oil blockade, simply that they shut down the entire oil production as well. 2003. So basically every year there was some conflict.
1253 00:49:28,350 --> 00:49:28,650 And that's it.
1254 00:49:29,470 --> 00:49:52,250 I actually had a friend who is a documentary filmmaker, an Italian-German documentary filmmaker, who was there under the state cup and stood with cameras and filmed everything and got such a really unique material from inside, how the whole thing happened and released as a documentary later.
1255 00:49:53,250 --> 00:49:58,350 And several of the right-wing politicians that exist, which usually are those who are...
1256 00:49:58,350 --> 00:49:59,250 Those who usually...
1257 00:49:59,470 --> 00:50:05,470 Most of them, if not all, were there in 2002.
1258 00:50:05,470 --> 00:50:14,290 Machallo, for example, she wrote under this declaration in support of the 2002 state cup, who was there.
1259 00:50:14,290 --> 00:50:23,250 Lopez, another one, he was also there and tried to go into Cuba's embassy when the state cup was held.
1260 00:50:23,250 --> 00:50:26,470 And then it's like that, it became a...
1261 00:50:26,470 --> 00:50:28,910 When there are changes, of course.
1262 00:50:29,470 --> 00:50:30,470 More radical changes.
1263 00:50:30,470 --> 00:50:33,470 Then, of course, there's resistance.
1264 00:50:33,470 --> 00:50:36,470 And you have to count on it.
1265 00:50:36,470 --> 00:50:50,470 And it's obvious that if you have a great power like the US that loses control of a significant, crucial oil industry, then it's obvious that they'll react.
1266 00:50:50,470 --> 00:50:53,470 So it would feel wrong to not do it.
1267 00:50:53,470 --> 00:50:56,470 And that's exactly what they do.
1268 00:50:56,470 --> 00:50:57,470 They do it in many different ways.
1269 00:50:57,470 --> 00:50:58,470 It doesn't mean that...
1270 00:50:58,470 --> 00:51:05,590 It doesn't mean that everything that has happened is correct or right.
1271 00:51:05,590 --> 00:51:12,470 There have been many big mistakes during the time, things that you don't like at all.
1272 00:51:12,470 --> 00:51:20,870 But I have to say that most of what has happened politically in Venezuela is a confrontation of power
1273 00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:27,790 between those who had power before and those who took power afterwards, that is, with Chavism.
1274 00:51:27,790 --> 00:51:43,440 And when Chavism dies and Nicolás Maduro takes over,
1275 00:51:43,440 --> 00:51:50,880 Chavism has explained that he wants to have him as a successor while he is still alive.
1276 00:51:50,880 --> 00:52:04,240 So in 2014, 2013, 2014, when he takes over, the big sanctions against Venezuela start to come one after the other.
1277 00:52:04,240 --> 00:52:05,720 And we also get Trump...
1278 00:52:05,720 --> 00:52:15,600 Trump who becomes president in the US and who goes in extra hard in that, with the sanctions against Maduro.
1279 00:52:15,600 --> 00:52:27,480 So then we get the years 2017 and onwards, where it's very difficult years in Venezuela when it comes to...
1280 00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:33,560 There are many people who run away, who run, who flee and...
1281 00:52:33,560 --> 00:52:35,400 In general, they do it...
1282 00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:41,200 About from the crisis, the economic crisis of 2018, when it breaks out completely.
1283 00:52:41,200 --> 00:52:46,680 Before that, there are political, enormous political confrontations.
1284 00:52:46,680 --> 00:52:50,360 Because, actually, they counted...
1285 00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:58,440 Chavism had a unique leadership, which also made it difficult for others to come forward.
1286 00:52:58,440 --> 00:53:05,280 He stood above everything else, and I would also say that there was a kind of dangerous personal cult as well.
1287 00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:06,800 Which was not so good.
1288 00:53:06,800 --> 00:53:18,520 But then when Maduro comes, you are standing there without the big leader, and then you have to find other forms that make the political leadership become much more collective.
1289 00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:20,360 And then you have several...
1290 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:33,240 The funny thing here is that now, at least Swedish media and others, when you read them, have discovered that there was such a much more collective leadership.
1291 00:53:33,240 --> 00:53:35,240 Was it good that they thought it was...
1292 00:53:35,240 --> 00:53:40,720 For many years, and it has to do with propaganda in the United States, because they didn't know.
1293 00:53:40,720 --> 00:53:46,280 So they have always, so to speak, had it as the wise Maduro, dictator Maduro, blah, blah, blah, and so on.
1294 00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:47,960 So you have always pointed at them, but...
1295 00:53:47,960 --> 00:53:54,560 We others who still know a little more history and have contacts with Venezuelans and others.
1296 00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:58,120 And I mean not only people from the left, but also from the right.
1297 00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:04,240 We knew, for example, that this collective leadership after Chavez was there.
1298 00:54:04,240 --> 00:54:05,040 So...
1299 00:54:05,240 --> 00:54:07,040 Ciscón Rodríguez, if you...
1300 00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,680 Now you start talking about Ciscón Rodríguez.
1301 00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:13,840 Now you start talking about Gustavo Cabello and Padrino López and so on.
1302 00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:17,960 So we have always known that there are several different...
1303 00:54:17,960 --> 00:54:22,640 Because when Chavez dies, it is Maduro who takes over.
1304 00:54:22,640 --> 00:54:27,440 But he doesn't have the capacity, he doesn't have the leadership that Chavez had.
1305 00:54:27,440 --> 00:54:31,960 Which makes the power depend on several, in different ways.
1306 00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:33,800 And I don't mean that it's good or bad.
1307 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,080 I'm just saying that it was.
1308 00:54:35,080 --> 00:54:36,600 It was like that, quite simply.
1309 00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:38,000 And you could have...
1310 00:54:38,000 --> 00:54:40,160 Now they have discovered that it was like that.
1311 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:45,400 In the past, it was only the rulers of Envols, Maduro, the dictator, and so on.
1312 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:51,600 So they wouldn't have understood that the power depended on several different groups, I would say.
1313 00:54:51,600 --> 00:55:01,800 It's not all oil companies that have drawn or lost production in Venezuela either, but it's...
1314 00:55:01,800 --> 00:55:02,880 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1315 00:55:02,880 --> 00:55:03,200 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1316 00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:03,680 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1317 00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:03,960 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1318 00:55:03,960 --> 00:55:04,360 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1319 00:55:04,360 --> 00:55:04,880 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1320 00:55:04,880 --> 00:55:05,040 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1321 00:55:05,040 --> 00:55:05,120 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1322 00:55:05,120 --> 00:55:05,160 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1323 00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:05,200 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1324 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:05,240 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1325 00:55:05,240 --> 00:55:05,360 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1326 00:55:05,360 --> 00:55:05,440 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1327 00:55:05,440 --> 00:55:05,480 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1328 00:55:05,480 --> 00:55:05,520 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1329 00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:05,560 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1330 00:55:05,560 --> 00:55:05,640 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1331 00:55:05,640 --> 00:55:05,760 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1332 00:55:05,760 --> 00:55:05,800 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon Slug...
1333 00:55:05,800 --> 00:55:30,160 eller förlorade sin oljeproduktion men så har du Chevron som är kvar där i och under den här ekonomiska krisen 2008 och åren som kommer så det är ju en global dipp i ekonomin men Venezuela lyckas inte ta sig ur den och det bygger ju också mycket på att både Kanada och USA utvecklar sin oljeproduktion mycket.
1334 00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:55,680 Att idag är ju USA från att vara ett oljeimporterande land så är det ett av de största oljeexportören, oljeproducenten i hela världen och den försörjningslinje av olja, de pipelines av råolja som kom från Venezuela upp till amerikanska kusten, den pipeline gick från syd till nord.
1335 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:59,040 Den kom ju nästan att byta riktning sen.
1336 00:55:59,040 --> 00:56:15,580 Att man istället hämtade olja från råolja som var väldigt lik den vänsterlanska oljan från Kanada istället tills USAs fracking kom igång och man började få sin egna oljeproduktion igång.
1337 00:56:15,580 --> 00:56:29,020 Så att det är ju också så här, diskussionen nu att allt handlar om oljan när det gäller Venezuela, det är ju också så här, nu finns det betydligt fler olika aktörer i oljan.
1338 00:56:29,040 --> 00:56:55,720 Att man inte alls är intresserad av att det ska plötsligt ske en stor tillflödes av olja utan det här kommer bli ett problem för, skulle USA få kontroll över Venezuela's oljeproduktionsproblem för Kanada, det kommer bli problem för inhemska oljebolag, det är ju inte de som har krävt Trump att göra det här.
1339 00:56:56,280 --> 00:56:58,720 Alltså 2006 då, då genomförde...
1340 00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:05,580 Chavez makes a reform when it comes to the control and production of oil that makes the
1341 00:57:05,580 --> 00:57:10,980 domestic oil companies, if they wanted to continue to produce, they would go into a joint venture
1342 00:57:10,980 --> 00:57:19,280 together with PDVSA, the Venezuelan oil company. And then both Exxon Mobil and
1343 00:57:19,280 --> 00:57:26,460 Conoco and Philips, the big ones, they're pulling. And Chevron has always been left behind.
1344 00:57:26,780 --> 00:57:31,880 They're pulling because they don't want to. They've been kings in Venezuela for a long time.
1345 00:57:32,360 --> 00:57:37,900 And now they have to start paying to be able to earn all this money that they had.
1346 00:57:37,900 --> 00:57:44,420 And they can't do that anymore. So it's actually important to say that the confrontation was there.
1347 00:57:45,180 --> 00:57:48,900 So up to what's happening now with...
1348 00:57:49,280 --> 00:58:00,400 USA's kidnapping of Maduro. And then you can say that both during the first Trump period and under Biden
1349 00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:07,700 and now under the second Trump period, the tone has always been sharpened against Maduro.
1350 00:58:09,120 --> 00:58:18,360 Maduro has not been accepted as a right-wing president, that he has cupped the election and it has been
1351 00:58:18,360 --> 00:58:19,100 awarded to him.
1352 00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:47,900 So he has become a symbol that the US has mobilized around to get rid of. But why is this happening now?
1353 00:58:47,900 --> 00:58:48,900 And why has...
1354 00:58:49,280 --> 00:58:53,980 Why is Trump so interested in getting rid of Maduro, do you think?
1355 00:58:55,860 --> 00:59:03,600 A military intervention that took place was the only alternative for the US to overthrow Maduro.
1356 00:59:04,080 --> 00:59:11,740 It was the only one that stood up. They tried already in 2013 with a protest wave.
1357 00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:14,900 They tried also in 2017 with a protest wave.
1358 00:59:14,900 --> 00:59:17,640 And then came 2018, 2019.
1359 00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:19,080 Also a...
1360 00:59:19,080 --> 00:59:25,980 protest wave, together with all the international political and diplomatic blockade.
1361 00:59:25,980 --> 00:59:29,460 A parallel government was established with Juan Guaidó,
1362 00:59:30,220 --> 00:59:35,160 which was recognized by the Western world, even in Sweden.
1363 00:59:37,120 --> 00:59:43,840 And then sanctions were imposed, over a thousand sanctions were imposed against Venezuela.
1364 00:59:43,840 --> 00:59:51,060 They froze their resources that were outside the country, and it was the day of the strike, quite simply.
1365 00:59:51,840 --> 00:59:57,520 And then in 2017, they imposed a financial and economic sanction,
1366 00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:01,140 and then an oil blockade in 2019.
1367 01:00:02,160 --> 01:00:04,060 They have tried many different things.
1368 01:00:04,220 --> 01:00:09,140 I mean, we in Sweden had not survived, not even with the first wave of protests, quite simply.
1369 01:00:09,440 --> 01:00:12,340 But they could not test power.
1370 01:00:12,340 --> 01:00:13,340 And I don't mean...
1371 01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:18,400 They could not support Maduro, I mean Chavismo, they could not support them, quite simply.
1372 01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,180 And to establish their own regime.
1373 01:00:21,380 --> 01:00:28,020 So this military intervention was the last card they had, quite simply.
1374 01:00:28,460 --> 01:00:35,540 But many, they still have, both Trump and Biden have supported the opposition there,
1375 01:00:35,540 --> 01:00:43,040 and now when Norway gave peace prizes to Maria Corina Machado,
1376 01:00:43,040 --> 01:00:43,840 so...
1377 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:49,020 Everyone expected that the USA would try to push her forward.
1378 01:00:49,600 --> 01:00:51,720 But Trump has not done that.
1379 01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:55,380 Instead, it has emerged from the White House that,
1380 01:00:55,740 --> 01:01:00,100 it has not been really confirmed, but they have been pointing out all the time,
1381 01:01:00,100 --> 01:01:08,120 that there is a negotiation with the circle around Maduro, around Rodriguez,
1382 01:01:09,040 --> 01:01:13,520 where Maduro was sacrificed, so to speak,
1383 01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:16,740 or he was forced to, like, be moved on.
1384 01:01:17,260 --> 01:01:22,000 Already in the negotiations before this, Maduro tried to open up,
1385 01:01:22,280 --> 01:01:25,960 let American companies, oil companies, come in again,
1386 01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,020 but he was forced to, like, disappear.
1387 01:01:29,260 --> 01:01:31,560 So, what do you think about that?
1388 01:01:31,720 --> 01:01:39,280 Is this Trump letting the Chavez regime stay, so to speak,
1389 01:01:39,280 --> 01:01:43,200 but should be threatened?
1390 01:01:43,520 --> 01:01:46,760 Or should he be threatened with military intervention,
1391 01:01:47,260 --> 01:01:47,860 bombings,
1392 01:01:48,020 --> 01:01:52,500 cuts of the shadow fleet that disposed of the oil,
1393 01:01:52,900 --> 01:01:54,420 and that it is...
1394 01:01:54,420 --> 01:01:56,820 You are not interested in a regime shift.
1395 01:01:57,300 --> 01:01:58,900 There are several different things.
1396 01:01:59,700 --> 01:02:01,960 I think there are several different things.
1397 01:02:02,020 --> 01:02:03,920 But the first thing I would like to say,
1398 01:02:04,240 --> 01:02:04,960 which is important,
1399 01:02:05,100 --> 01:02:07,960 is that a lot of what comes out in the media,
1400 01:02:08,280 --> 01:02:09,260 speculations,
1401 01:02:09,740 --> 01:02:11,680 if it's someone who was a traitor,
1402 01:02:11,680 --> 01:02:12,680 or something like that,
1403 01:02:12,680 --> 01:02:13,080 like,
1404 01:02:13,080 --> 01:02:16,780 it's Maduro who left Maduro to Trump,
1405 01:02:17,460 --> 01:02:18,240 among other things,
1406 01:02:18,460 --> 01:02:23,040 and then that he had held negotiations behind his back,
1407 01:02:23,260 --> 01:02:25,760 not just Maduro, but the country in general,
1408 01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:26,360 all of that,
1409 01:02:27,040 --> 01:02:30,140 it's a lot of war propaganda.
1410 01:02:30,560 --> 01:02:32,860 It has a lot to do with the fact that
1411 01:02:32,860 --> 01:02:36,260 you want to weaken Chavism in Venezuela.
1412 01:02:37,100 --> 01:02:39,800 You want to split Chavism and say,
1413 01:02:39,800 --> 01:02:42,560 well, here is someone who is a traitor,
1414 01:02:42,560 --> 01:02:44,940 and we have to look for a traitor,
1415 01:02:44,940 --> 01:02:47,460 and there is someone who has come to power,
1416 01:02:47,580 --> 01:02:48,900 at least in the case of Elsie Rodriguez,
1417 01:02:48,980 --> 01:02:50,780 for having negotiated with the USA,
1418 01:02:51,040 --> 01:02:52,320 behind the back of Maduro,
1419 01:02:52,420 --> 01:02:53,060 and you know, and so on.
1420 01:02:54,340 --> 01:02:55,940 I'm not so sure that it is so,
1421 01:02:56,580 --> 01:02:57,220 but I never know.
1422 01:02:57,500 --> 01:03:00,400 But one thing that is important in this context,
1423 01:03:00,580 --> 01:03:02,300 is that you asked why right now.
1424 01:03:02,980 --> 01:03:04,580 I think it has to do with the fact that
1425 01:03:04,580 --> 01:03:07,760 the last crisis for the country,
1426 01:03:07,940 --> 01:03:08,840 the economic crisis,
1427 01:03:08,840 --> 01:03:12,260 where it was the worst was in 2019,
1428 01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:14,560 and the worst in 2020.
1429 01:03:14,560 --> 01:03:18,560 After that, the country has started to get back on track,
1430 01:03:18,560 --> 01:03:20,560 the country's economy has started to get back on track
1431 01:03:20,560 --> 01:03:22,560 in several different ways.
1432 01:03:22,560 --> 01:03:26,560 The first is that you carry out a,
1433 01:03:26,560 --> 01:03:30,560 I would say, a rather difficult economic package,
1434 01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:32,560 that you carry out.
1435 01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:34,560 Because it is the case that you have had
1436 01:03:34,560 --> 01:03:36,560 an enormous political crisis,
1437 01:03:36,560 --> 01:03:38,560 in many different ways,
1438 01:03:38,560 --> 01:03:40,560 where you actually commit a lot of crimes against human rights,
1439 01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,560 that is, people, you imprison people,
1440 01:03:42,560 --> 01:03:44,560 and so on.
1441 01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:46,560 And that is what you do,
1442 01:03:46,560 --> 01:03:48,560 during this political confrontation.
1443 01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,560 That is what you do,
1444 01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,560 in the last two years,
1445 01:03:52,560 --> 01:03:54,560 in 2018 and 2019.
1446 01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:56,560 But then, when you defeat what you call
1447 01:03:56,560 --> 01:03:58,560 the golpism,
1448 01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:00,560 the coup d'etat,
1449 01:04:00,560 --> 01:04:02,560 and you are quite confident in power,
1450 01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:04,560 then you carry out an economic reform,
1451 01:04:04,560 --> 01:04:06,560 called DUGA.
1452 01:04:06,560 --> 01:04:08,560 I don't know if other countries in the United States
1453 01:04:08,560 --> 01:04:10,560 could afford it.
1454 01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:12,560 So what they do is,
1455 01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:14,560 they do several things.
1456 01:04:14,560 --> 01:04:16,560 They know that they are economically blocked.
1457 01:04:16,560 --> 01:04:18,560 And then they do so that they,
1458 01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:20,560 Maduro and the political power,
1459 01:04:20,560 --> 01:04:22,560 they compromise with the business world,
1460 01:04:22,560 --> 01:04:24,560 and say,
1461 01:04:24,560 --> 01:04:26,560 we are completely blocked,
1462 01:04:26,560 --> 01:04:28,560 as a state.
1463 01:04:28,560 --> 01:04:30,560 We can't do much business,
1464 01:04:30,560 --> 01:04:32,560 because we can't even,
1465 01:04:32,560 --> 01:04:34,560 we can't even pay.
1466 01:04:34,560 --> 01:04:36,560 It was a financial blockade,
1467 01:04:36,560 --> 01:04:38,560 so that they couldn't even pay out the money.
1468 01:04:38,560 --> 01:04:40,560 Those who will be able to do business,
1469 01:04:40,560 --> 01:04:42,560 that is you.
1470 01:04:42,560 --> 01:04:44,560 And then you start to support
1471 01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:46,560 the business world.
1472 01:04:46,560 --> 01:04:48,560 The other is that you release
1473 01:04:48,560 --> 01:04:50,560 the dollar control.
1474 01:04:50,560 --> 01:04:52,560 You let the dollar
1475 01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,560 get into the economy,
1476 01:04:54,560 --> 01:04:56,560 without any problem.
1477 01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:58,560 So you start to pay in dollars,
1478 01:04:58,560 --> 01:05:00,560 if you will.
1479 01:05:00,560 --> 01:05:02,560 They said that the economy had been dollarized.
1480 01:05:02,560 --> 01:05:04,560 So they took away all restrictions
1481 01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:06,560 regarding dollar assets,
1482 01:05:06,560 --> 01:05:08,560 and that you pay as well.
1483 01:05:08,560 --> 01:05:10,560 The third is that you take away
1484 01:05:10,560 --> 01:05:12,560 the subsidies.
1485 01:05:12,560 --> 01:05:14,560 The subsidies on the market,
1486 01:05:14,560 --> 01:05:16,560 that made people,
1487 01:05:16,560 --> 01:05:18,560 the big life-saving businesses,
1488 01:05:18,560 --> 01:05:20,560 both state and private,
1489 01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,560 that they bought in
1490 01:05:22,560 --> 01:05:24,560 subsidized food,
1491 01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:26,560 which they then sold on black markets,
1492 01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,560 because they got a lot more money on it.
1493 01:05:28,560 --> 01:05:30,560 And it became that life-saving businesses
1494 01:05:30,560 --> 01:05:32,560 were quite empty,
1495 01:05:32,560 --> 01:05:34,560 the shelves were quite empty.
1496 01:05:34,560 --> 01:05:36,560 There was no food,
1497 01:05:36,560 --> 01:05:38,560 because everything was sold out there.
1498 01:05:38,560 --> 01:05:40,560 So it was the same people
1499 01:05:40,560 --> 01:05:42,560 who had bought in from the state,
1500 01:05:42,560 --> 01:05:44,560 that took away almost all the subsidies.
1501 01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:46,560 All the subsidies they took away
1502 01:05:46,560 --> 01:05:48,560 on food.
1503 01:05:48,560 --> 01:05:50,560 Which made that suddenly
1504 01:05:50,560 --> 01:05:52,560 there was a lot of food
1505 01:05:52,560 --> 01:05:54,560 in life-saving businesses.
1506 01:05:54,560 --> 01:05:56,560 Everything was available,
1507 01:05:56,560 --> 01:05:58,560 everything you wanted.
1508 01:05:58,560 --> 01:06:00,560 And also the imports,
1509 01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:02,560 that the private could import.
1510 01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:04,560 So they said,
1511 01:06:04,560 --> 01:06:06,560 you hate the US,
1512 01:06:06,560 --> 01:06:08,560 but you buy food from the US.
1513 01:06:08,560 --> 01:06:10,560 But it was the private,
1514 01:06:10,560 --> 01:06:12,560 so they imported quite a lot.
1515 01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:14,560 Yes, and a fourth thing,
1516 01:06:14,560 --> 01:06:16,560 which is important to say here,
1517 01:06:16,560 --> 01:06:18,560 was that the state had
1518 01:06:18,560 --> 01:06:20,560 employed a lot of people
1519 01:06:20,560 --> 01:06:22,560 to healthcare, to schools,
1520 01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,560 to the administration,
1521 01:06:24,560 --> 01:06:26,560 a lot of bureaucracy,
1522 01:06:26,560 --> 01:06:28,560 and you paid a lot of money,
1523 01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:30,560 and you paid with the money from oil.
1524 01:06:30,560 --> 01:06:32,560 And that also made the inflation
1525 01:06:32,560 --> 01:06:34,560 increase by many, many thousands.
1526 01:06:34,560 --> 01:06:36,560 You walked with backpacks,
1527 01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:38,560 I walked with a huge backpack
1528 01:06:38,560 --> 01:06:40,560 with money, with bundles,
1529 01:06:40,560 --> 01:06:42,560 and it was worth nothing.
1530 01:06:42,560 --> 01:06:44,560 And what you do is that you also say
1531 01:06:44,560 --> 01:06:46,560 that now we should not
1532 01:06:46,560 --> 01:06:48,560 continue to increase the wages,
1533 01:06:48,560 --> 01:06:50,560 but they will go in parallel
1534 01:06:50,560 --> 01:06:52,560 with the production.
1535 01:06:52,560 --> 01:06:54,560 The more you produce,
1536 01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:56,560 the more the wages will increase.
1537 01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:58,560 As the production was quite low,
1538 01:06:58,560 --> 01:07:00,560 it became almost nothing.
1539 01:07:00,560 --> 01:07:02,560 Suddenly the subsidies decreased,
1540 01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:04,560 they stopped pushing the bills,
1541 01:07:04,560 --> 01:07:06,560 inflation started to go down,
1542 01:07:06,560 --> 01:07:08,560 there was food out there,
1543 01:07:08,560 --> 01:07:10,560 but above all,
1544 01:07:10,560 --> 01:07:12,560 in the state and in the municipalities,
1545 01:07:12,560 --> 01:07:14,560 the wages were not enough
1546 01:07:14,560 --> 01:07:16,560 for anything anymore.
1547 01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:18,560 But there was food in
1548 01:07:18,560 --> 01:07:20,560 healthcare businesses.
1549 01:07:20,560 --> 01:07:22,560 What you do for the state is,
1550 01:07:22,560 --> 01:07:24,560 for example, I have several friends
1551 01:07:24,560 --> 01:07:26,560 who teach at the university,
1552 01:07:26,560 --> 01:07:28,560 and what they did was that
1553 01:07:28,560 --> 01:07:30,560 they taught for two days a week
1554 01:07:30,560 --> 01:07:32,560 at the university,
1555 01:07:32,560 --> 01:07:34,560 and continued to teach,
1556 01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:36,560 but they had three days
1557 01:07:36,560 --> 01:07:38,560 where they could do
1558 01:07:38,560 --> 01:07:40,560 whatever they wanted,
1559 01:07:40,560 --> 01:07:42,560 either by car or taxi,
1560 01:07:42,560 --> 01:07:44,560 or they started a café,
1561 01:07:44,560 --> 01:07:46,560 so they did quite a lot,
1562 01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:48,560 and that made it start to bloom,
1563 01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:50,560 people started to work.
1564 01:07:50,560 --> 01:07:52,560 So the economy started to grow a lot
1565 01:07:52,560 --> 01:07:54,560 around 2021.
1566 01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:56,560 And then they got an order
1567 01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:58,560 on the oil production as well.
1568 01:07:58,560 --> 01:08:00,560 Now, for example,
1569 01:08:00,560 --> 01:08:02,560 before the attack,
1570 01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:04,560 they had started to produce
1571 01:08:04,560 --> 01:08:06,560 about one million barrels per day of oil,
1572 01:08:06,560 --> 01:08:08,560 which is not the highest
1573 01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:10,560 they have done, but quite good.
1574 01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:12,560 About 7% of the oil goes to China,
1575 01:08:12,560 --> 01:08:14,560 and then it goes to
1576 01:08:14,560 --> 01:08:16,560 a small part to Turkey as well,
1577 01:08:16,560 --> 01:08:18,560 and a small part to Brazil,
1578 01:08:18,560 --> 01:08:20,560 among other things.
1579 01:08:20,560 --> 01:08:22,560 And before that it also went to India,
1580 01:08:22,560 --> 01:08:24,560 but then the USA blocked it
1581 01:08:24,560 --> 01:08:26,560 so that India could not buy it.
1582 01:08:26,560 --> 01:08:28,560 And a small part also goes to the USA
1583 01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:30,560 via Chevron as well,
1584 01:08:30,560 --> 01:08:32,560 about 200,000 barrels per day.
1585 01:08:32,560 --> 01:08:34,560 And the inflation went down,
1586 01:08:34,560 --> 01:08:36,560 so they got an order
1587 01:08:36,560 --> 01:08:38,560 on the economy,
1588 01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:40,560 in macroeconomics.
1589 01:08:40,560 --> 01:08:42,560 The problem has been that
1590 01:08:42,560 --> 01:08:44,560 the poverty,
1591 01:08:44,560 --> 01:08:46,560 especially among
1592 01:08:46,560 --> 01:08:48,560 public employees,
1593 01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:50,560 increased a lot.
1594 01:08:50,560 --> 01:08:52,560 And there was also a gap,
1595 01:08:52,560 --> 01:08:54,560 a gap between those who work privately
1596 01:08:54,560 --> 01:08:56,560 who get paid many times in dollars,
1597 01:08:56,560 --> 01:08:58,560 and then the public employees
1598 01:08:58,560 --> 01:09:00,560 who get paid in bolivars
1599 01:09:00,560 --> 01:09:02,560 and very little money.
1600 01:09:02,560 --> 01:09:04,560 And what they did so that the inflation
1601 01:09:04,560 --> 01:09:06,560 would not increase,
1602 01:09:06,560 --> 01:09:08,560 although they understood that
1603 01:09:08,560 --> 01:09:10,560 they were not good public employees,
1604 01:09:10,560 --> 01:09:12,560 was that they started to pay
1605 01:09:12,560 --> 01:09:14,560 what they call a bonus,
1606 01:09:14,560 --> 01:09:16,560 just so that you can understand
1607 01:09:16,560 --> 01:09:18,560 how it works.
1608 01:09:18,560 --> 01:09:20,560 In salary, for example,
1609 01:09:20,560 --> 01:09:22,560 you get about 10 dollars
1610 01:09:22,560 --> 01:09:24,560 or something like that per month.
1611 01:09:24,560 --> 01:09:26,560 But then you get,
1612 01:09:26,560 --> 01:09:28,560 in addition to that,
1613 01:09:28,560 --> 01:09:30,560 a bonus of 100 dollars,
1614 01:09:30,560 --> 01:09:32,560 what they call a war bonus,
1615 01:09:32,560 --> 01:09:34,560 against the blockade.
1616 01:09:34,560 --> 01:09:36,560 And then you also get a food bonus.
1617 01:09:36,560 --> 01:09:38,560 But it is a bonus that you get,
1618 01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:40,560 about 40-50 dollars.
1619 01:09:40,560 --> 01:09:42,560 So in total,
1620 01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:44,560 with all the different bonuses,
1621 01:09:44,560 --> 01:09:46,560 maybe a public employee got
1622 01:09:46,560 --> 01:09:48,560 over 200 dollars that he could survive with.
1623 01:09:48,560 --> 01:09:50,560 But the salary is
1624 01:09:50,560 --> 01:09:52,560 very, very low.
1625 01:09:52,560 --> 01:09:54,560 So that's how you have worked
1626 01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:56,560 with this economic crisis that you had.
1627 01:09:56,560 --> 01:09:58,560 And then there was also that
1628 01:09:58,560 --> 01:10:00,560 that many,
1629 01:10:00,560 --> 01:10:02,560 around 2017, 18,
1630 01:10:02,560 --> 01:10:04,560 19, 20, 21,
1631 01:10:04,560 --> 01:10:06,560 there were many who migrated.
1632 01:10:06,560 --> 01:10:08,560 Most of them,
1633 01:10:08,560 --> 01:10:10,560 we're talking about millions,
1634 01:10:10,560 --> 01:10:12,560 most of them migrated not for political reasons,
1635 01:10:12,560 --> 01:10:14,560 but for economic reasons.
1636 01:10:14,560 --> 01:10:16,560 You could say for political reasons,
1637 01:10:16,560 --> 01:10:18,560 but I mean, it was not politically followed,
1638 01:10:18,560 --> 01:10:20,560 but it was mainly because of the economy.
1639 01:10:20,560 --> 01:10:22,560 And they also started to send money,
1640 01:10:22,560 --> 01:10:24,560 just like all the other Americans do,
1641 01:10:24,560 --> 01:10:26,560 remittances to the country.
1642 01:10:26,560 --> 01:10:28,560 And that also became an income
1643 01:10:28,560 --> 01:10:30,560 for the state.
1644 01:10:30,560 --> 01:10:32,560 You talk about, is it for the country?
1645 01:10:32,560 --> 01:10:34,560 And not the state, but the country,
1646 01:10:34,560 --> 01:10:36,560 because you send it directly to the family.
1647 01:10:36,560 --> 01:10:38,560 It's about between 3 and 4
1648 01:10:38,560 --> 01:10:40,560 billion dollars per year
1649 01:10:40,560 --> 01:10:42,560 when it comes to remittances.
1650 01:10:42,560 --> 01:10:44,560 So on the other hand, you got order in the economy.
1651 01:10:44,560 --> 01:10:46,560 And now, of course,
1652 01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:48,560 the oil production has worked
1653 01:10:48,560 --> 01:10:50,560 and so has the export.
1654 01:10:50,560 --> 01:10:52,560 And that's why the US is going in.
1655 01:10:52,560 --> 01:10:54,560 If they hadn't gone in now,
1656 01:10:54,560 --> 01:10:56,560 it would have been too late,
1657 01:10:56,560 --> 01:10:58,560 because the Chinese have returned to Venezuela
1658 01:10:58,560 --> 01:11:00,560 for oil.
1659 01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:02,560 The US has gone out,
1660 01:11:02,560 --> 01:11:04,560 Trump says that this is
1661 01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:06,560 a conspiracy,
1662 01:11:06,560 --> 01:11:08,560 or he calls it
1663 01:11:08,560 --> 01:11:10,560 the Donbrough Doctrine.
1664 01:11:10,560 --> 01:11:12,560 And he has gone out and made it clear,
1665 01:11:12,560 --> 01:11:14,560 or he and Marco Rubio
1666 01:11:14,560 --> 01:11:16,560 and the Secretary of State.
1667 01:11:16,560 --> 01:11:18,560 From now on,
1668 01:11:18,560 --> 01:11:20,560 the US hegemony
1669 01:11:20,560 --> 01:11:22,560 is in the Western Hemisphere,
1670 01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:24,560 that this is their region.
1671 01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:26,560 And they are not going to tolerate
1672 01:11:26,560 --> 01:11:28,560 that trade happens
1673 01:11:28,560 --> 01:11:30,560 or other interests.
1674 01:11:30,560 --> 01:11:32,560 China can stay in its own interests.
1675 01:11:32,560 --> 01:11:34,560 Russia can stay
1676 01:11:34,560 --> 01:11:36,560 in its own interests.
1677 01:11:36,560 --> 01:11:38,560 They are not going to get into
1678 01:11:38,560 --> 01:11:40,560 the American interests.
1679 01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,560 Then China is Latin America's
1680 01:11:42,560 --> 01:11:44,560 biggest trading partner today.
1681 01:11:44,560 --> 01:11:46,560 And it seems like
1682 01:11:46,560 --> 01:11:48,560 what the US
1683 01:11:48,560 --> 01:11:50,560 wants to do now
1684 01:11:50,560 --> 01:11:52,560 is in different ways
1685 01:11:52,560 --> 01:11:54,560 to try to stop,
1686 01:11:54,560 --> 01:11:56,560 drive out the trade with China
1687 01:11:56,560 --> 01:11:58,560 from which can use
1688 01:11:58,560 --> 01:12:00,560 the Panama Canal,
1689 01:12:00,560 --> 01:12:02,560 which can access Venezuela's oil.
1690 01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:04,560 They have pumped it
1691 01:12:04,560 --> 01:12:06,560 into loans
1692 01:12:06,560 --> 01:12:08,560 to Miley in Argentina
1693 01:12:08,560 --> 01:12:10,560 to be able to continue
1694 01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:12,560 to win the elections
1695 01:12:12,560 --> 01:12:14,560 where they have gone in
1696 01:12:14,560 --> 01:12:16,560 and supported Honduras.
1697 01:12:16,560 --> 01:12:18,560 So it is,
1698 01:12:18,560 --> 01:12:20,560 it is connected.
1699 01:12:20,560 --> 01:12:22,560 The first wave
1700 01:12:22,560 --> 01:12:24,560 with trade bribes,
1701 01:12:24,560 --> 01:12:26,560 trade wars.
1702 01:12:26,560 --> 01:12:28,560 And now you go in
1703 01:12:28,560 --> 01:12:30,560 and the trade war has passed
1704 01:12:30,560 --> 01:12:32,560 in this form of warfare
1705 01:12:32,560 --> 01:12:34,560 or bomb diplomacy.
1706 01:12:34,560 --> 01:12:36,560 They are even fighting
1707 01:12:36,560 --> 01:12:38,560 with both sanctions
1708 01:12:38,560 --> 01:12:40,560 and repression
1709 01:12:40,560 --> 01:12:42,560 and attacks
1710 01:12:42,560 --> 01:12:44,560 to get through their will.
1711 01:12:44,560 --> 01:12:46,560 But the question is
1712 01:12:46,560 --> 01:12:48,560 if you then
1713 01:12:48,560 --> 01:12:50,560 allow the regime
1714 01:12:50,560 --> 01:12:52,560 which is in Venezuela
1715 01:12:52,560 --> 01:12:54,560 to exist.
1716 01:12:54,560 --> 01:12:56,560 The question is also
1717 01:12:56,560 --> 01:12:58,560 the whole community movement,
1718 01:12:58,560 --> 01:13:00,560 people's militias,
1719 01:13:00,560 --> 01:13:02,560 people's defence,
1720 01:13:02,560 --> 01:13:04,560 people's organization
1721 01:13:04,560 --> 01:13:19,660 The chavism that has survived, that it's both Trump's, if you want to say, that stomach movement, he comes against, dislikes very much to carry out regime shifts and bind themselves up in different countries,
1722 01:13:19,660 --> 01:13:36,280 like in Iraq, Afghanistan, that they should stand and try to set up a new order, a new regime, but they have nothing against the interventions that go to bomb Iran, kidnap a president or show acting power and strength in that way,
1723 01:13:36,400 --> 01:13:44,960 as long as you don't bind yourself up and stay there. So what do you think about the future of the region and Venezuela's future?
1724 01:13:44,960 --> 01:13:48,960 Yes, what one should say is that it is...
1725 01:13:49,660 --> 01:14:03,080 The Monroe Doctrine, it's a doctrine from 1823, it was a struggle between the USA, which was growing up as a great power, and England, Spain, Portugal, and so on.
1726 01:14:03,080 --> 01:14:17,600 Then over the years, it has had different types of meaning, and they usually lift it up sometime, in the early 90s, and then it came to the 40s, and then Trump has again launched it as a concept,
1727 01:14:17,600 --> 01:14:19,600 and then he talks about...
1728 01:14:19,660 --> 01:14:20,160 The Monroe Doctrine.
1729 01:14:20,160 --> 01:14:20,940 The Monroe Doctrine, and so on.
1730 01:14:21,540 --> 01:14:31,640 But I would say that the USA was, let's say, always, over the entire 1900s, there was the USA there, so that one practiced the Monroe Doctrine for a long time.
1731 01:14:32,180 --> 01:14:43,620 The first thing, there were no other rivals in the same way, so neither Europe, nor China, nor Russia was so interested in it, they were not present in Latin America in the same way,
1732 01:14:43,620 --> 01:14:49,220 so that one could continue, one could carry out, when one carries out neoliberalism,
1733 01:14:49,660 --> 01:14:57,060 because there were a lot of state groups, interventions in countries to get through it.
1734 01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:06,080 So then they also had, so this with military interventions is nothing new that Trump has come up with,
1735 01:15:06,080 --> 01:15:09,220 but it is something that they have always used.
1736 01:15:09,900 --> 01:15:16,300 Kissinger was the theoretician behind how to control Latin America.
1737 01:15:16,300 --> 01:15:23,620 But this with military interventions, military methods to be able to solve conflicts
1738 01:15:23,620 --> 01:15:27,660 and try to get control over countries and governments,
1739 01:15:27,960 --> 01:15:31,880 it has again come back, it has come to waves, so to speak.
1740 01:15:32,160 --> 01:15:38,760 Once Bill Clinton was in Guatemala and asked for forgiveness for what he had done in Guatemala.
1741 01:15:39,500 --> 01:15:41,120 So he went there and asked for forgiveness.
1742 01:15:42,080 --> 01:15:45,880 Obama was also one of those who wanted to get,
1743 01:15:46,300 --> 01:15:49,840 get in touch with Latin America in a different way, in a different type of way.
1744 01:15:50,400 --> 01:15:55,940 Obama is the only American president who has been in Cuba, for example, since 1959.
1745 01:15:56,800 --> 01:15:58,560 Just that, they tried.
1746 01:15:58,560 --> 01:16:05,200 But it's not like the president is the only power, there are several power centers.
1747 01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:07,400 Pentagon and so on, and so there is.
1748 01:16:08,000 --> 01:16:11,940 But what is happening now, there is a gap in the security policy that is interesting,
1749 01:16:12,100 --> 01:16:15,960 which is called that it has an aggressive defensive attitude.
1750 01:16:16,300 --> 01:16:17,280 I don't know if you've heard of it.
1751 01:16:17,460 --> 01:16:19,400 It's a term that they use.
1752 01:16:19,540 --> 01:16:26,660 And they mean that when a great power feels that its power is decreasing,
1753 01:16:26,660 --> 01:16:29,580 then you start to adapt to your strategy.
1754 01:16:30,040 --> 01:16:32,880 They try to repel other rivals, they try to repel competitors,
1755 01:16:33,040 --> 01:16:35,580 they try to come in and then defend their position.
1756 01:16:36,180 --> 01:16:41,520 And then you take it to such risk-filled measures that you have now done,
1757 01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:45,920 for example, by going into Caracas, bombing Caracas and then kidnapping,
1758 01:16:46,300 --> 01:16:46,820 in Maduro.
1759 01:16:47,360 --> 01:16:51,000 But what we have seen is that they have, what they have done,
1760 01:16:51,620 --> 01:16:55,740 is that they are in, again, I mean, it's not the first time,
1761 01:16:55,740 --> 01:17:02,820 I would call it a militarization of the region.
1762 01:17:03,640 --> 01:17:05,740 So, for example, they have militarized,
1763 01:17:05,980 --> 01:17:09,460 they have taken it to the Caribbean and then to,
1764 01:17:09,820 --> 01:17:12,880 outside Venezuela's coast, hangar aircraft.
1765 01:17:13,300 --> 01:17:16,080 They have had 150 planes there.
1766 01:17:16,300 --> 01:17:19,780 They have militarized parts of Puerto Rico.
1767 01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:24,780 They talk about that they have had about 10,000 or 15,000 soldiers in Puerto Rico,
1768 01:17:24,780 --> 01:17:28,540 and opened, again, military bases in Puerto Rico.
1769 01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:33,280 Just as you were talking about, they actually forced a right-wing government
1770 01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:40,680 to write a signage agreement that means that the USA will have military control
1771 01:17:40,680 --> 01:17:41,980 over the Panama Canal.
1772 01:17:42,720 --> 01:17:46,060 They will also be allowed to pass without paying anything.
1773 01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:48,760 It's a sign of the American air force,
1774 01:17:48,760 --> 01:17:52,880 but also that they will support China's contribution and influence
1775 01:17:53,680 --> 01:17:57,160 in, in it, with the Panama Canal as well.
1776 01:17:57,160 --> 01:18:01,420 So they have really invested a lot.
1777 01:18:01,420 --> 01:18:04,320 And the entire escalation that they have done in the Caribbean
1778 01:18:04,320 --> 01:18:06,900 hasn't been seen for about 40, 50 years,
1779 01:18:06,900 --> 01:18:08,560 but they really are on it.
1780 01:18:08,560 --> 01:18:12,360 And then I come to the question that you were talking about.
1781 01:18:12,700 --> 01:18:14,540 Why do you do what you do?
1782 01:18:14,540 --> 01:18:16,000 And then why don't you add?
1783 01:18:16,000 --> 01:18:17,420 as a marionette government.
1784 01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:20,220 Why do they do what they do, that they go in,
1785 01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,980 kidnap Maduro,
1786 01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:23,720 and then pull them and don't stop?
1787 01:18:24,120 --> 01:18:26,040 It has to do with that they have, of course,
1788 01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,180 taken lessons from Iraq,
1789 01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:29,920 Libya, Afghanistan.
1790 01:18:30,780 --> 01:18:32,320 USA, as a great power
1791 01:18:32,320 --> 01:18:34,100 today, has no power
1792 01:18:34,100 --> 01:18:36,180 to carry out a long
1793 01:18:36,180 --> 01:18:38,320 war that they have
1794 01:18:38,320 --> 01:18:38,940 done before.
1795 01:18:39,700 --> 01:18:42,180 You don't have the power to go in
1796 01:18:42,180 --> 01:18:43,240 Venezuela, occupy,
1797 01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,040 and then risk
1798 01:18:45,040 --> 01:18:46,520 that it will be an incessant war.
1799 01:18:47,020 --> 01:18:48,100 It will be a war that
1800 01:18:48,100 --> 01:18:50,960 keeps on going, that doesn't end.
1801 01:18:51,200 --> 01:18:53,600 And then they get a
1802 01:18:53,600 --> 01:18:54,600 choice now,
1803 01:18:55,000 --> 01:18:57,040 during the autumn, and then they have
1804 01:18:57,040 --> 01:18:58,900 a war that they can't
1805 01:18:58,900 --> 01:19:01,160 control, quite simply. They can't
1806 01:19:01,160 --> 01:19:03,200 do that. They don't have the power to do
1807 01:19:03,200 --> 01:19:03,980 that at all.
1808 01:19:04,740 --> 01:19:06,540 So neither political nor economic
1809 01:19:06,540 --> 01:19:08,760 reasons can they actually do that.
1810 01:19:09,520 --> 01:19:11,120 That they don't
1811 01:19:11,120 --> 01:19:12,840 go in and sort out
1812 01:19:12,840 --> 01:19:13,200 everything,
1813 01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:14,680 let's say, the power there,
1814 01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:16,540 and put in place a marionette
1815 01:19:16,540 --> 01:19:18,540 government, has to do also with
1816 01:19:18,540 --> 01:19:20,000 that they, just like
1817 01:19:20,000 --> 01:19:22,620 a report from CIA says,
1818 01:19:23,080 --> 01:19:24,440 this Venezuelan
1819 01:19:24,440 --> 01:19:26,380 right-wing opposition is something that
1820 01:19:26,380 --> 01:19:27,640 they themselves have created,
1821 01:19:28,020 --> 01:19:29,900 and financed, for many, many years.
1822 01:19:30,940 --> 01:19:32,060 Macau, for example,
1823 01:19:32,180 --> 01:19:34,120 she built an
1824 01:19:34,120 --> 01:19:35,960 organization that they themselves
1825 01:19:35,960 --> 01:19:37,840 financed. The USA always
1826 01:19:37,840 --> 01:19:40,280 financed this organization.
1827 01:19:40,820 --> 01:19:42,480 And they have financed most of them,
1828 01:19:42,480 --> 01:19:42,640 and they are,
1829 01:19:42,640 --> 01:19:43,220 and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are, and they are.
1830 01:19:43,220 --> 01:19:44,760 And most of these leaders, and they know about that.
1831 01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:47,620 Story, who was
1832 01:19:47,620 --> 01:19:49,120 earlier ambassador in
1833 01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:50,280 Venezuela, he
1834 01:19:50,280 --> 01:19:53,060 was not in Venezuela, he was in
1835 01:19:53,060 --> 01:19:55,060 Colombia, but he was still ambassador for
1836 01:19:55,060 --> 01:19:57,200 Venezuela. He says to himself that it was we who
1837 01:19:57,200 --> 01:19:59,260 built this platform, this political
1838 01:19:59,260 --> 01:20:01,240 platform. And then he also says,
1839 01:20:01,420 --> 01:20:03,060 Marco Rovio, but most of them
1840 01:20:03,060 --> 01:20:04,980 are, this opposition,
1841 01:20:05,300 --> 01:20:07,100 they live abroad. They are in
1842 01:20:07,100 --> 01:20:09,260 Miami, Madrid, and so on,
1843 01:20:09,260 --> 01:20:10,380 but they don't exist in Venezuela.
1844 01:20:11,160 --> 01:20:12,960 So, in a way, they understand,
1845 01:20:13,220 --> 01:20:14,960 that if they were to
1846 01:20:14,960 --> 01:20:16,380 occupy, or
1847 01:20:16,380 --> 01:20:16,880 start,
1848 01:20:17,620 --> 01:20:19,260 put in
1849 01:20:19,260 --> 01:20:21,240 some kind of marionette regime,
1850 01:20:21,440 --> 01:20:23,400 so they know that
1851 01:20:23,400 --> 01:20:25,700 this regime would not be able to
1852 01:20:25,700 --> 01:20:27,220 last, not even a month,
1853 01:20:27,740 --> 01:20:29,460 before it had become a
1854 01:20:29,460 --> 01:20:30,980 city coup, a civil war,
1855 01:20:31,500 --> 01:20:32,960 or that they had simply been
1856 01:20:32,960 --> 01:20:35,020 eliminated, because they had not managed it.
1857 01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:36,740 And then the crisis would have been
1858 01:20:36,740 --> 01:20:38,560 worse, because then
1859 01:20:38,560 --> 01:20:41,160 no one could actually control
1860 01:20:41,160 --> 01:20:42,120 the situation.
1861 01:20:42,120 --> 01:20:43,160 And what they,
1862 01:20:43,160 --> 01:20:44,900 do now, is, they have
1863 01:20:44,900 --> 01:20:47,260 always, always had
1864 01:20:47,260 --> 01:20:49,260 conversations and
1865 01:20:49,260 --> 01:20:50,860 negotiations. They have negotiations
1866 01:20:50,860 --> 01:20:53,320 in Barbados, they have negotiations
1867 01:20:53,320 --> 01:20:55,240 in Mexico, they have
1868 01:20:55,240 --> 01:20:57,040 negotiations in Colombia, they have
1869 01:20:57,040 --> 01:20:59,160 negotiations in Qatar,
1870 01:20:59,460 --> 01:21:01,000 where several different
1871 01:21:01,000 --> 01:21:03,100 sectors and countries have been
1872 01:21:03,100 --> 01:21:05,200 involved. We are talking about the Vatican
1873 01:21:05,200 --> 01:21:07,140 that has been involved, Turkey has been
1874 01:21:07,140 --> 01:21:08,760 involved, Russia has been involved.
1875 01:21:09,140 --> 01:21:10,740 So there are several countries that have been involved in these
1876 01:21:10,740 --> 01:21:13,000 different types of negotiations that have been.
1877 01:21:13,160 --> 01:21:15,160 And, as I understand it,
1878 01:21:15,700 --> 01:21:17,060 is that, as the USA
1879 01:21:17,060 --> 01:21:19,400 can't afford to
1880 01:21:19,400 --> 01:21:21,080 occupy the country, and that
1881 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:22,660 they don't have an opposition that
1882 01:21:22,660 --> 01:21:24,920 can take over, and that can keep the power,
1883 01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:27,140 what they are interested in, in the US,
1884 01:21:27,360 --> 01:21:29,160 is to take the oil, to get control
1885 01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:30,920 over the oil, and then that is what
1886 01:21:30,920 --> 01:21:32,900 they have, so to speak, negotiated about. And what they
1887 01:21:32,900 --> 01:21:34,780 negotiate about is that the American
1888 01:21:34,780 --> 01:21:36,780 oil will be able to come back
1889 01:21:36,780 --> 01:21:38,140 to Venezuela, which
1890 01:21:38,140 --> 01:21:40,520 the sitting government has said, okay,
1891 01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:42,580 of course they have to do that, but
1892 01:21:42,580 --> 01:21:42,900 they,
1893 01:21:43,160 --> 01:21:44,580 they have to do that under our
1894 01:21:44,580 --> 01:21:46,560 conditions. The first thing that
1895 01:21:46,560 --> 01:21:48,300 Trump had after this attack
1896 01:21:48,300 --> 01:21:50,680 was with the oil companies, and then
1897 01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:52,400 they came, and Chevron
1898 01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:54,400 said at one point, we can, we are
1899 01:21:54,400 --> 01:21:56,680 there, we can not only double
1900 01:21:56,680 --> 01:21:58,120 but triple the production
1901 01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:00,360 if it were to be needed, without a problem.
1902 01:22:00,680 --> 01:22:02,420 Repsol, which is a Spanish oil company, said
1903 01:22:02,420 --> 01:22:04,460 that we can also triple the production
1904 01:22:04,460 --> 01:22:06,700 while ExxonMobil
1905 01:22:06,700 --> 01:22:08,060 said that they didn't
1906 01:22:08,060 --> 01:22:10,380 want to come back before there was
1907 01:22:10,380 --> 01:22:12,820 a safe insurance that they
1908 01:22:12,820 --> 01:22:15,800 could produce and get their money
1909 01:22:15,800 --> 01:22:17,880 out, simply put. But, really, what they
1910 01:22:17,880 --> 01:22:20,480 want is that you change the constitution
1911 01:22:20,480 --> 01:22:22,800 and the law so that they can go in and
1912 01:22:22,800 --> 01:22:25,540 not have, for example, to pay royalties
1913 01:22:25,540 --> 01:22:27,500 and taxes for the production they have,
1914 01:22:27,500 --> 01:22:31,740 quite simply. I believe that the next
1915 01:22:31,740 --> 01:22:34,180 conflict, we'll see if it becomes militar or
1916 01:22:34,180 --> 01:22:37,020 political or on another level, is lithium,
1917 01:22:37,020 --> 01:22:39,480 and it has the salt deserts in
1918 01:22:39,500 --> 01:22:42,540 Bolivia, Chile and Argentina. And there, it is a
1919 01:22:42,540 --> 01:22:49,140 And there, during the time the USA has tried to intervene politically and militarily in other countries,
1920 01:22:49,380 --> 01:22:52,100 China has invested money, just as they do.
1921 01:22:52,280 --> 01:22:55,040 They don't invest in politics, they do business.
1922 01:22:55,700 --> 01:23:00,160 So in Bolivia, the Chinese have a lead.
1923 01:23:00,160 --> 01:23:11,780 In Chile, the state-owned company, Godelco, and a private company where the Chinese are involved,
1924 01:23:11,780 --> 01:23:16,080 I think they have around 25-30% of the company, Sochemich,
1925 01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:21,360 they have written an agreement that together they will develop the production of lithium.
1926 01:23:21,560 --> 01:23:26,000 And then in Argentina, they also have very large investments.
1927 01:23:26,000 --> 01:23:30,160 And 90% of the production of lithium in Argentina goes to the Chinese.
1928 01:23:30,660 --> 01:23:34,440 So I think there will be a big conflict there with the USA.
1929 01:23:34,740 --> 01:23:36,660 In the same way, it is with the ports.
1930 01:23:37,280 --> 01:23:40,740 A few days ago, they wrote an agreement with Colombia,
1931 01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:41,760 so that you can...
1932 01:23:41,760 --> 01:23:48,760 ...transfer the Caribbean Sea, the Colombian Caribbean coast, to the Colombian Stila Sea coast.
1933 01:23:48,760 --> 01:23:50,760 So they can transport things.
1934 01:23:50,760 --> 01:23:55,760 Instead of going via Panama, they will be able to go via what is called Torre Vell.
1935 01:23:55,760 --> 01:24:01,760 But then they have the big mega port that the Chinese themselves have built outside Lima in Peru.
1936 01:24:01,760 --> 01:24:07,260 Peru is ruled by a right-wing government, because it doesn't matter if the Chinese are right-wing or left-wing.
1937 01:24:07,260 --> 01:24:09,260 The important thing is that they can do business.
1938 01:24:09,260 --> 01:24:11,060 And now they have built the largest port,
1939 01:24:11,060 --> 01:24:16,060 which is in Latin America, 60 km from Lima.
1940 01:24:16,060 --> 01:24:17,560 And they have complete control.
1941 01:24:17,560 --> 01:24:20,560 They have built and financed and have complete control.
1942 01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:24,060 And that will be some kind of hub, a new point,
1943 01:24:24,060 --> 01:24:30,060 to transport from Brazil, from Bolivia, from Ecuador, from Argentina,
1944 01:24:30,060 --> 01:24:33,060 and then from the Stila Sea to China.
1945 01:24:33,060 --> 01:24:36,060 It is also, so to speak, a big conflict.
1946 01:24:36,060 --> 01:24:37,060 And I think it's important.
1947 01:24:37,060 --> 01:24:40,060 Because it will be economic, political and even military.
1948 01:24:40,060 --> 01:24:44,060 And the last thing I was going to say is what you could have done.
1949 01:24:44,060 --> 01:24:49,060 Because the big question is how you could have stopped Trump before.
1950 01:24:49,060 --> 01:24:53,060 And here there is a big loser that you don't talk about that much.
1951 01:24:53,060 --> 01:24:54,060 Or two.
1952 01:24:54,060 --> 01:24:56,060 But the big loser is Brazil.
1953 01:24:56,060 --> 01:24:59,060 Brazil, you know, is a great power.
1954 01:24:59,060 --> 01:25:01,060 And they are also a global actor.
1955 01:25:01,060 --> 01:25:05,060 And a global actor is based on the fact that they have with them Latin America.
1956 01:25:05,060 --> 01:25:09,060 That they were able to lead Latin America with Lula and so on.
1957 01:25:09,060 --> 01:25:18,060 But Lula never built a political and economic unity in Latin America.
1958 01:25:18,060 --> 01:25:23,060 Brazil wanted to be a leader and not a single continent.
1959 01:25:23,060 --> 01:25:26,060 Chávez tried several times in many different ways.
1960 01:25:26,060 --> 01:25:30,060 They built Selak and Unasur.
1961 01:25:30,060 --> 01:25:32,060 Many different ways.
1962 01:25:32,060 --> 01:25:33,060 And you talk about Bolivia.
1963 01:25:33,060 --> 01:25:38,060 It was important for Bolivia that the entire continent would be a fatherland.
1964 01:25:38,060 --> 01:25:42,060 But Brazil, especially Lula, refused.
1965 01:25:42,060 --> 01:25:46,060 Apart from the political discussion behind it.
1966 01:25:46,060 --> 01:25:49,060 So they refused to do it.
1967 01:25:49,060 --> 01:25:51,060 Today they are alone.
1968 01:25:51,060 --> 01:25:53,060 All of them are not in agreement.
1969 01:25:53,060 --> 01:25:56,060 There is nothing to do against Trump.
1970 01:25:56,060 --> 01:26:00,060 Which also means that Brazil is weakened quite a bit.
1971 01:26:00,060 --> 01:26:07,060 And the last thing Brazil did last year that many think was a failure.
1972 01:26:07,060 --> 01:26:11,060 It was that they didn't let Venezuela enter the BRICS.
1973 01:26:11,060 --> 01:26:12,060 It was Brazil.
1974 01:26:12,060 --> 01:26:15,060 It was Lula who put a veto on it.
1975 01:26:15,060 --> 01:26:17,060 They didn't want them to go in there.
1976 01:26:17,060 --> 01:26:21,060 It might not have stopped the military intervention.
1977 01:26:21,060 --> 01:26:27,060 But it would have helped Venezuela not to be so isolated as it actually was.
1978 01:26:27,060 --> 01:26:29,060 With that, Brazil has...
1979 01:26:29,060 --> 01:26:31,060 They thought they had won.
1980 01:26:31,060 --> 01:26:33,060 But they have lost a lot.
1981 01:26:33,060 --> 01:26:35,060 Because they are not as strong now.
1982 01:26:35,060 --> 01:26:37,060 And now they have to confront Trump.
1983 01:26:37,060 --> 01:26:42,060 Because they also want to be a superpower in the region.
1984 01:26:42,060 --> 01:26:45,060 And it can't be that there are two superpowers,
1985 01:26:45,060 --> 01:26:48,060 the US and Brazil, that can still coexist.
1986 01:26:48,060 --> 01:26:52,060 It will be a problem, both economically and politically.
1987 01:26:52,060 --> 01:26:56,060 It was very interesting to talk to you.
1988 01:26:56,060 --> 01:27:03,060 You have such incredible knowledge of Latin American history.
1989 01:27:03,060 --> 01:27:06,060 So it was nice to hear you here.
1990 01:27:06,060 --> 01:27:08,060 Thank you for...
1991 01:27:08,060 --> 01:27:11,060 We will have to reconnect in a year.
1992 01:27:11,060 --> 01:27:15,060 And see how, where and where this all comes from.
1993 01:27:15,060 --> 01:27:16,060 Follow up.
1994 01:27:16,060 --> 01:27:18,060 Invite John Hörnqvist as well.
1995 01:27:18,060 --> 01:27:19,060 Gladly.
1996 01:27:19,060 --> 01:27:20,060 I'm glad to be part of it.
1997 01:27:20,060 --> 01:27:21,060 Yes.
1998 01:27:21,060 --> 01:27:22,060 But then we'll say so.
1999 01:27:22,060 --> 01:27:23,060 Thank you very much.
2000 01:27:23,060 --> 01:27:24,060 Bye Mathias.
2001 01:27:24,060 --> 01:27:25,060 Bye bye.
2002 01:27:25,060 --> 01:27:26,060 Thank you.
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