Den 3 januari 2026 angrep USA på Donald Trumps order Venezuelas huvudstad Caracas och kidnappade president Nicolás Maduro. Är detta slutet för den bolivarianska revolutionen som inleddes med Hugo Chávez presidentskap 1998? Eller var det sista spiken i kistan för en regim redan på knä av sanktioner och oljeindustrins kuppförsök. Francisco Contreras guidar oss igenom Venezuelas nutidshistoria, regimförändring ovanifrån och demokratisk folkmakt underifrån, om försöket till ett socialistiskt projekt byggt på en av världens största oljekällor. Läs mer: Francisco Contreras: Var det ett regimskifte i Venezuela? (Parabol) https://www.parabol.press/genomforde-usa-ett-regimskifte-i-venezuela/ Chris Gilbert och Cira Pascual Marquina: Temanummer om Venezuelas kommuner (Monthly Review) https://monthlyreview.org/articles/a-special-issue-on-communes-in-socialist-construction/ Chris Gilbert: Commune or Nothing! Venezuela’s Communal Movement and its Socialist Project https://chrisgilbert.site/commune-or-nothing/ John Bellamy Foster: Chávez and the Communal State: On the Transition to Socialism in Venezuela (Monthly Review) https://monthlyreviewarchives.org/mr/article/view/MR-066-11-2015-04_1 Politics theory other: Richard Seymour om angreppet på Venezuela (Podcast) https://poddtoppen.se/podcast/1370561641/politics-theory-other/the-donroe-doctrine-and-us-decline The Dig: Venezuela med Alejandro Velasco, Gabriel Hetland, Yoletty Bracho (Podcast) https://thedigradio.com/podcast/venezuela-w-alejandro-velasco-gabriel-hetland-yoletty-bracho/ Wikipedia om Hugo Chavez, Bolivarianska revolutionen och 2000-talets socialism: https://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugo_Ch%C3%A1vez
1 00:00:09,070 --> 00:00:10,710 We're dealing with a new president.
2 00:00:10,710 --> 00:00:12,910 We're dealing with a lot of the people
3 00:00:12,910 --> 00:00:14,270 that were running the country.
4 00:00:14,270 --> 00:00:17,310 And they had our first thing is they said,
5 00:00:17,310 --> 00:00:19,890 we have 50 million barrels.
6 00:00:19,890 --> 00:00:21,310 Hard to believe.
7 00:00:21,310 --> 00:00:23,750 I said, is there such a thing as 50 million barrels?
8 00:00:23,750 --> 00:00:26,530 50 million barrels of oil.
9 00:00:26,530 --> 00:00:29,690 And we have to get it processed immediately
10 00:00:29,690 --> 00:00:31,250 because we have no room.
11 00:00:31,250 --> 00:00:31,990 Will you take it?
12 00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:33,430 I said, we'll take it.
13 00:00:33,430 --> 00:00:36,730 And it's the equivalent of $5.2 billion.
14 00:00:36,730 --> 00:00:38,090 That was the first day.
15 00:00:38,090 --> 00:00:40,790 And it's now traveling nicely to the United States.
16 00:01:23,900 --> 00:01:26,100 Thank you very much for presenting yourself.
17 00:01:26,100 --> 00:01:27,800 Who are you?
18 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:33,540 I actually have several different hats, I would say.
19 00:01:33,540 --> 00:01:38,440 So it depends on what context I'm in.
20 00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:42,860 But I work professionally.
21 00:01:42,860 --> 00:01:44,220 I'm a sociologist.
22 00:01:44,220 --> 00:01:48,120 I work with education in sociology.
23 00:01:48,120 --> 00:01:52,600 I also work at a ministry with high school education.
24 00:01:52,600 --> 00:01:53,900 And especially foreign.
25 00:01:53,900 --> 00:01:57,800 I know quite a lot about, or should know,
26 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:00,940 a lot about, especially Latin America and Spain,
27 00:02:00,940 --> 00:02:04,280 when it comes to universities and universities and schools and such.
28 00:02:04,280 --> 00:02:06,420 I also work with UNESCO.
29 00:02:06,420 --> 00:02:09,620 I'm a whole lot in Latin America because of that.
30 00:02:09,620 --> 00:02:14,220 So, and then I've always been active politically,
31 00:02:14,220 --> 00:02:16,380 in several different ways, actually.
32 00:02:16,380 --> 00:02:21,520 So I wouldn't say that I'm the one or the other.
33 00:02:21,520 --> 00:02:23,900 I've been very...
34 00:02:23,900 --> 00:02:26,660 I'm an activist in parties and such.
35 00:02:26,660 --> 00:02:31,500 And then I've been a lot, maybe the most in movements.
36 00:02:31,500 --> 00:02:32,340 I'd say.
37 00:02:32,340 --> 00:02:37,980 A lot of solidarity movements, anti-war movements in that direction.
38 00:02:37,980 --> 00:02:39,620 I've worked with Biston.
39 00:02:39,620 --> 00:02:42,320 Was the chairman of the Latin American Group for six years.
40 00:02:42,320 --> 00:02:45,880 Today I'm the chairman of the Solidarity House.
41 00:02:45,880 --> 00:02:51,260 Then I'm very, very curious about theories, sociology.
42 00:02:51,260 --> 00:02:53,860 So sociological theories, but also political theories,
43 00:02:53,900 --> 00:03:03,580 And that has made me an international director for Parabol, which was a coincidence, I just walked in there.
44 00:03:04,180 --> 00:03:08,780 And so it happened. I don't know, it's a bit on that side, I'm sure.
45 00:03:09,260 --> 00:03:19,240 And you and I, and John Hörnqvist, we had a study circle about the world system, imperialism, for a few years ago,
46 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:24,940 which we didn't present at the last Marx Conference, but the one before that.
47 00:03:25,100 --> 00:03:35,220 So that's why I thought it was good for you to come in and talk a little about, partly, what's happening around Venezuela now,
48 00:03:35,220 --> 00:03:44,100 and maybe connect that to a broader approach also around the whole of South America and American imperialism,
49 00:03:44,280 --> 00:03:49,220 if it's now going back to a previous phase.
50 00:03:49,240 --> 00:04:06,560 To declare Latin America as their interest, their area, their special zone, they have a monopoly or hegemony over it, to deal with it.
51 00:04:07,700 --> 00:04:12,200 What kind of connection do you have to Latin America, if we start there?
52 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:18,560 I was born in Chile, came with my parents during the dictatorship.
53 00:04:19,240 --> 00:04:30,340 I have lived the dictatorship in Sweden as a Chilean, as a refugee, so that's the connection I have mainly.
54 00:04:30,900 --> 00:04:38,820 I've also had a political, emotional and cultural connection to Latin America.
55 00:04:38,820 --> 00:04:43,080 Which I've kept. That was mostly from home, of course.
56 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:47,700 My parents and myself were also very active who voted for Solidarity.
57 00:04:47,700 --> 00:04:48,680 We were very active in Solidarity groups. We wereThis was not only education! We were also veryincoln as India, I will say! We are most own people in Latin America.
58 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,640 with Chile, but also other countries in Latin America.
59 00:04:54,380 --> 00:04:58,480 So that connection exists, and I've never let go of it.
60 00:04:58,620 --> 00:05:02,560 I've always followed what's happening in Latin America,
61 00:05:02,700 --> 00:05:07,860 not just politically, but also culturally, theoretically, ideologically,
62 00:05:08,380 --> 00:05:11,900 and then also professionally, I've followed that.
63 00:05:11,900 --> 00:05:18,700 And I would say that things and things happen all the time,
64 00:05:19,020 --> 00:05:24,980 just like here in Sweden, but also in Europe and so on, in all other regions.
65 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,320 But since I've never let go of the contacts,
66 00:05:30,100 --> 00:05:33,100 you know, just as a little parenthesis,
67 00:05:33,300 --> 00:05:39,600 people, just as we are, if something interesting happens in a country,
68 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:41,040 or in a region, or whatever it is now,
69 00:05:41,420 --> 00:05:41,880 then we don't let go of it.
70 00:05:41,880 --> 00:05:41,900 So that connection exists, and I've always followed that.
71 00:05:41,900 --> 00:05:43,840 And then you start reading more, and getting contacts,
72 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,180 and you know, you become active, and then maybe you travel there and so on.
73 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:52,180 Then it's like this, all these, there's always conflict, problems,
74 00:05:52,700 --> 00:05:54,420 things and things go up and down.
75 00:05:55,000 --> 00:05:57,240 And then you let go of it because there's probably something else
76 00:05:57,240 --> 00:05:59,000 that's more interesting, and then you let go.
77 00:05:59,360 --> 00:06:02,000 And then you start with something else, let's say,
78 00:06:02,180 --> 00:06:03,960 a different country, or a different movement, or whatever.
79 00:06:04,180 --> 00:06:05,980 I would say that I haven't done that,
80 00:06:06,460 --> 00:06:08,860 that I've followed other movements,
81 00:06:08,860 --> 00:06:11,860 other political developments in other regions,
82 00:06:11,860 --> 00:06:13,860 that have actually been interesting.
83 00:06:13,860 --> 00:06:17,620 But I've always continued to have contact with Latin America,
84 00:06:17,620 --> 00:06:22,000 which makes you, suddenly you can, if you want to know something,
85 00:06:22,000 --> 00:06:26,640 then I've had contact since 20, 30 years ago, back, something.
86 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:30,560 I mean, people who then were part of a small role,
87 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,540 and then suddenly have become ministers, or have become, I don't know,
88 00:06:34,540 --> 00:06:41,640 big, well-known artists, or people who have become professionals in their area,
89 00:06:41,640 --> 00:06:41,840 and so on.
90 00:06:41,840 --> 00:06:44,160 So that you have a continued contact,
91 00:06:44,240 --> 00:06:47,640 which makes it easier, so to speak, to be able to talk to people.
92 00:06:48,300 --> 00:06:52,040 But that you don't always have to go to books or to texts,
93 00:06:52,200 --> 00:06:54,300 but that you can have conversations with,
94 00:06:54,380 --> 00:06:56,760 just like I have now, so I've had many conversations.
95 00:06:57,140 --> 00:06:59,480 Last week I had many, many conversations,
96 00:06:59,800 --> 00:07:03,920 every day, several, with several people in Latin America.
97 00:07:04,500 --> 00:07:06,040 And it's so easy to communicate in the future,
98 00:07:06,040 --> 00:07:09,780 which makes you get a different insight into what's going on.
99 00:07:10,220 --> 00:07:11,620 If you could just take a,
100 00:07:11,620 --> 00:07:14,740 if you could just take a look at what's going on in Latin America,
101 00:07:14,740 --> 00:07:18,420 because I've done a few podcasts in the past,
102 00:07:18,420 --> 00:07:21,400 I've done one with America Vera Zavala,
103 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:24,420 where we talked about the pink wave,
104 00:07:24,660 --> 00:07:26,060 or what you call it, Pink Tie,
105 00:07:26,220 --> 00:07:30,260 the whole wave of left-wing populism
106 00:07:30,260 --> 00:07:34,380 that came around 2000, around the millennial shift,
107 00:07:34,740 --> 00:07:40,700 and how it got power in a number of different Latin American states
108 00:07:40,700 --> 00:07:41,600 with, you know, a lot of people,
109 00:07:41,620 --> 00:07:42,540 different success.
110 00:07:42,540 --> 00:07:45,620 Some managed to change, but better,
111 00:07:45,980 --> 00:07:50,680 while others, perhaps, became more short-lived, like, waves.
112 00:07:51,460 --> 00:07:56,540 And I also did an episode about Mexico, Chiapas,
113 00:07:56,760 --> 00:08:00,300 about the Zapatistas, as one of, one could say,
114 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:05,800 inspiration for a new form of, like, left-wing
115 00:08:05,800 --> 00:08:08,900 in the 90s and 00s.
116 00:08:09,540 --> 00:08:11,560 But what's the situation like now?
117 00:08:11,620 --> 00:08:19,400 Now there seems to be a right-wing in country after country in Latin America.
118 00:08:20,180 --> 00:08:23,140 Latin America is actually a huge region.
119 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,620 And then you would also want to say Latin America and the Caribbean.
120 00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:30,960 But it's this hemisphere that is enormous.
121 00:08:31,080 --> 00:08:37,820 And there are of course different waves, political waves and even ideological waves that go.
122 00:08:37,820 --> 00:08:43,059 So what is happening now is not unique at all.
123 00:08:43,299 --> 00:08:47,340 But you can go back to, to give an example,
124 00:08:47,680 --> 00:08:58,680 in the 40s, 50s and 60s there was a more nationalistic, state-building movement in these countries.
125 00:08:58,680 --> 00:09:07,680 There are several different presidents who go in to build cities,
126 00:09:07,820 --> 00:09:14,820 in a different way than one had previously inherited from colonialism, for example.
127 00:09:14,820 --> 00:09:18,820 Which also makes a lot of changes.
128 00:09:18,820 --> 00:09:26,820 Peronism is, for example, a good example of how one builds up nationalism.
129 00:09:26,820 --> 00:09:30,820 And then I'm not talking about this high-racist nationalism,
130 00:09:30,820 --> 00:09:34,820 but I'm talking more about the formation of a state, so to speak.
131 00:09:34,820 --> 00:09:37,620 And then you can see, if you just go back,
132 00:09:37,620 --> 00:09:43,620 then you can see during this time that there will be a number of different presidents
133 00:09:43,620 --> 00:09:47,620 that you could not say were left-wing,
134 00:09:47,620 --> 00:09:53,620 but where they predicted a state, a sovereign state.
135 00:09:53,620 --> 00:10:01,620 I have had the opportunity, with different types of work, to travel around Latin America.
136 00:10:01,620 --> 00:10:04,620 Very many countries, I'm not going to say all of them, but very many countries.
137 00:10:04,620 --> 00:10:06,620 So you have, and I like history,
138 00:10:06,620 --> 00:10:07,620 and I want to go back,
139 00:10:07,620 --> 00:10:10,020 to those that have an understanding of certain things.
140 00:10:10,020 --> 00:10:11,620 One has that curiosity.
141 00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:15,620 So, all of a sudden, you can understand what happened,
142 00:10:15,620 --> 00:10:18,620 that there was Peron in Argentina,
143 00:10:18,620 --> 00:10:21,620 and then Aguires Herda in Chile,
144 00:10:21,620 --> 00:10:24,620 and then there was Peres Jimenez in Venezuela,
145 00:10:24,620 --> 00:10:26,620 and young people built on the same idea
146 00:10:26,620 --> 00:10:31,620 There was a reaction against the USA,
147 00:10:31,620 --> 00:10:35,620 that had already, they had already,
148 00:10:35,620 --> 00:10:40,620 a lot of power over the region, with what is called Monroe-Drogtyn,
149 00:10:40,680 --> 00:10:41,800 which came in the 1800s, but there.
150 00:10:42,260 --> 00:10:47,140 But those who lose in the 30s and 40s, those who lose the grip,
151 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:53,000 it releases a little, because the USA is very busy with Western Europe,
152 00:10:53,760 --> 00:10:56,380 with Hitler and Western Europe and everything,
153 00:10:56,380 --> 00:11:01,880 which makes it possible to start building and come up with alternatives.
154 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:02,880 And so it is.
155 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:10,880 Actually, one could say that the Cuban revolution was in the first place nationalist.
156 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:14,160 If you listen to what Fidel Castro said,
157 00:11:15,260 --> 00:11:18,980 they call it a part of the self-determination,
158 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:21,620 I think it was the third self-determination war, something like that.
159 00:11:21,620 --> 00:11:25,920 Then there had been two under the 18th century, and this was the third, in 1959.
160 00:11:26,440 --> 00:11:31,620 So in the first place it was that, that you were talking about patria, about foster land,
161 00:11:31,880 --> 00:11:33,880 you were talking about self-determination, and so on.
162 00:11:34,700 --> 00:11:43,700 So the Cuban revolution from the beginning was part of the national self-determination process that was going on.
163 00:11:43,700 --> 00:11:50,300 And it was in the first place to get rid of the USA from power in Cuba.
164 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:52,520 And so it is in other countries as well.
165 00:11:53,380 --> 00:12:00,160 But gradually, in the 60s and 70s, other movements come that are interesting.
166 00:12:00,160 --> 00:12:01,760 Because there was...
167 00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,720 There were at the same time other movements.
168 00:12:05,820 --> 00:12:09,400 I think, for example, one movement that is interesting,
169 00:12:09,820 --> 00:12:14,840 that came quite early, was in Guatemala in 1953,
170 00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:20,520 in the early 50s, with Chaco Arbenz.
171 00:12:21,040 --> 00:12:25,320 Precisely in Guatemala there was a company, United Fruits Company,
172 00:12:25,580 --> 00:12:27,620 that owned largely the whole country.
173 00:12:27,620 --> 00:12:31,640 They controlled not only banana production in the country,
174 00:12:31,760 --> 00:12:37,400 but they owned the port, they owned the transport, the electricity supply, you name it.
175 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:39,820 So they owned everything.
176 00:12:39,820 --> 00:12:46,640 And there was born in Guatemala a movement among the military that was not at all socialist.
177 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:52,820 We are talking about 50-53, so they were not that big in Latin America.
178 00:12:52,820 --> 00:12:58,720 What they really wanted to enforce or to implement was a agricultural reform,
179 00:12:58,720 --> 00:13:01,620 which would make poor people get...
180 00:13:01,620 --> 00:13:04,580 to live, so to speak, to survive.
181 00:13:05,260 --> 00:13:10,020 And that reform went against, of course, these big companies from the USA,
182 00:13:10,660 --> 00:13:15,900 which makes them coups, they enforce a coup against Chaco Arbenz.
183 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:18,860 And the interesting thing is...
184 00:13:18,860 --> 00:13:22,100 There are some similarities with what is happening now with Maduro.
185 00:13:22,740 --> 00:13:26,360 The first is that behind what the USA does,
186 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:30,460 there is also, in this case, the oil companies, of course.
187 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:31,360 In Chaco Arbenz...
188 00:13:31,620 --> 00:13:35,460 In Chaco Arbenz, there was the United Fruit Company,
189 00:13:35,460 --> 00:13:39,460 which was behind and financed it quite a lot.
190 00:13:39,460 --> 00:13:41,460 And it also does, I mean...
191 00:13:41,460 --> 00:13:43,460 There is one oil company, the big oil company,
192 00:13:43,460 --> 00:13:47,460 which is behind a lot and finances it, it is Exxon Mobil.
193 00:13:47,460 --> 00:13:51,460 They exist both in Guyana and in Trinidad and Tobago,
194 00:13:51,460 --> 00:13:54,460 which borders Venezuela, for example.
195 00:13:54,460 --> 00:13:59,460 They finance several of the high politicians that exist in...
196 00:13:59,460 --> 00:14:01,460 that we know, for example Machado.
197 00:14:01,460 --> 00:14:03,460 He was the one who received the Nobel Prize.
198 00:14:03,460 --> 00:14:07,460 It is Exxon Mobil that finances a lot of what they actually do.
199 00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:12,460 And another anecdote that is important, in this case,
200 00:14:12,460 --> 00:14:17,460 when Chaco Arbenz, what he does is that he eventually leaves power and goes into exile.
201 00:14:17,460 --> 00:14:24,460 And you can draw parallels to Maduro, because the whole thing was that they wanted him to leave.
202 00:14:24,460 --> 00:14:31,300 And they advised him also that he would go into exile in Russia, and even Turkey was involved in the plans.
203 00:14:31,300 --> 00:14:33,300 And there was also that...
204 00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:37,300 What Trump says is that we want to have control over the oil.
205 00:14:37,300 --> 00:14:42,300 So for us it is no problem if there is a so-called socialist government,
206 00:14:42,300 --> 00:14:44,300 but only we get control over the oil.
207 00:14:44,300 --> 00:14:47,300 Just like what was done in Guatemala,
208 00:14:47,300 --> 00:14:52,300 that Chaco Arbenz did not want to give them power at all,
209 00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:55,300 but in the end he had to leave power and go into exile.
210 00:14:55,300 --> 00:14:57,300 He did it. He did not resist at all.
211 00:14:57,300 --> 00:15:00,300 So they actually did not have to kidnap him.
212 00:15:00,300 --> 00:15:02,300 And they installed a military dictatorship.
213 00:15:02,300 --> 00:15:07,300 They used these high-tech war materials.
214 00:15:07,300 --> 00:15:11,300 What are these planes called?
215 00:15:11,300 --> 00:15:14,300 I'm really bad at that.
216 00:15:14,300 --> 00:15:18,300 But I think they are called P-47 Thunderbolts or something like that,
217 00:15:18,300 --> 00:15:21,300 which they used back then in Guatemala.
218 00:15:21,300 --> 00:15:23,300 I'm talking about 1954.
219 00:15:23,300 --> 00:15:26,300 And I thought of the anecdote that is important.
220 00:15:26,300 --> 00:15:29,300 It is that one of those who was in Guatemala was Che Guevara.
221 00:15:30,300 --> 00:15:32,300 I'm talking about 1954.
222 00:15:32,300 --> 00:15:37,300 So there was a group of Latin Americans who were in Guatemala
223 00:15:37,300 --> 00:15:40,300 and experienced, so to speak, everything that happened.
224 00:15:40,300 --> 00:15:45,300 The United States called for a meeting the same year as the State Cup was,
225 00:15:45,300 --> 00:15:48,300 in March, and the State Cup was in June.
226 00:15:48,300 --> 00:15:51,300 In March they called for a meeting in OAS,
227 00:15:51,300 --> 00:15:57,300 which was this Latin American and American meeting of states, OAS.
228 00:15:57,300 --> 00:16:00,300 And Alan Dulles,
229 00:16:00,300 --> 00:16:03,300 was the one who was the CIA chief there.
230 00:16:03,300 --> 00:16:06,300 And he was one of those who called for that meeting.
231 00:16:06,300 --> 00:16:08,300 And they did that in Caracas, that meeting.
232 00:16:08,300 --> 00:16:11,300 And I know people who told me about it.
233 00:16:11,300 --> 00:16:12,300 They had a lot of history.
234 00:16:12,300 --> 00:16:13,300 I don't know if they were born there,
235 00:16:13,300 --> 00:16:15,300 but there are a few older people who told me about it.
236 00:16:15,300 --> 00:16:20,300 And all the countries in Latin America had to write under a statement
237 00:16:20,300 --> 00:16:24,300 where they pledged to counter communism's advance in the region.
238 00:16:24,300 --> 00:16:26,300 We're talking about 1954.
239 00:16:26,300 --> 00:16:28,300 And then all these state cups came,
240 00:16:28,300 --> 00:16:32,300 and most of us know them in one way or another.
241 00:16:32,300 --> 00:16:34,300 In Uruguay, Argentina, Chile,
242 00:16:34,300 --> 00:16:37,300 all these state cups in Bolivia,
243 00:16:37,300 --> 00:16:39,300 even in Peru, and so on.
244 00:16:39,300 --> 00:16:44,300 So all these state cups came a little after the Chaco-Arves.
245 00:16:44,300 --> 00:16:47,300 And I think, just to finish this sentence,
246 00:16:47,300 --> 00:16:51,300 that what's happening now with Maduro,
247 00:16:51,300 --> 00:16:53,300 that you go in as you do,
248 00:16:53,300 --> 00:16:57,300 and don't go through a completely regulatory change,
249 00:16:57,300 --> 00:16:59,300 you shift, so to speak,
250 00:16:59,300 --> 00:17:01,300 without just kidnapping,
251 00:17:01,300 --> 00:17:03,300 and then threatening to do it again,
252 00:17:03,300 --> 00:17:05,300 and do worse things,
253 00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:09,300 is a new type of power
254 00:17:09,300 --> 00:17:11,300 that will be used in Latin America.
255 00:17:11,300 --> 00:17:13,300 Just like they did with the Chaco-Arves
256 00:17:13,300 --> 00:17:15,300 when they got their state cups.
257 00:17:15,300 --> 00:17:19,300 So there's a long history of American-supported
258 00:17:19,300 --> 00:17:23,300 and CIA-supported state cups in Latin America.
259 00:17:23,300 --> 00:17:25,300 But as I understand it,
260 00:17:25,300 --> 00:17:27,300 Venezuela was a country
261 00:17:27,300 --> 00:17:31,300 that was long forgotten from that,
262 00:17:31,300 --> 00:17:35,300 that it was one of the countries in Latin America
263 00:17:35,300 --> 00:17:39,300 that was most likely similar
264 00:17:39,300 --> 00:17:42,300 to other Western countries
265 00:17:42,300 --> 00:17:45,300 in that there were two big parties
266 00:17:45,300 --> 00:17:48,300 that stood against each other in elections,
267 00:17:48,300 --> 00:17:51,300 one more to the left or liberal,
268 00:17:51,300 --> 00:17:54,300 and a right-wing party that shifted from each other.
269 00:17:54,300 --> 00:17:55,300 And that,
270 00:17:55,300 --> 00:17:59,300 it was also in Venezuela
271 00:17:59,300 --> 00:18:02,300 as an oil-producing country
272 00:18:02,300 --> 00:18:07,300 that took the initiative to OPEC.
273 00:18:07,300 --> 00:18:13,300 And that oil played a very important role
274 00:18:13,300 --> 00:18:15,300 already then,
275 00:18:15,300 --> 00:18:20,300 and that the nationalization
276 00:18:20,300 --> 00:18:22,300 that took place in Venezuela of oil,
277 00:18:22,300 --> 00:18:24,300 it was long before Maduro,
278 00:18:24,300 --> 00:18:26,300 Chavez,
279 00:18:26,300 --> 00:18:28,300 as it happened,
280 00:18:28,300 --> 00:18:32,300 where Venezuela took over oil production.
281 00:18:32,300 --> 00:18:33,300 Yes,
282 00:18:33,300 --> 00:18:34,300 well,
283 00:18:34,300 --> 00:18:35,300 actually,
284 00:18:35,300 --> 00:18:36,300 it is so that,
285 00:18:36,300 --> 00:18:37,300 you know,
286 00:18:37,300 --> 00:18:40,300 it is the victors who tell the story,
287 00:18:40,300 --> 00:18:41,300 it usually is.
288 00:18:41,300 --> 00:18:42,300 And actually,
289 00:18:42,300 --> 00:18:44,300 it is so that in the 19th century,
290 00:18:44,300 --> 00:18:46,300 there were several different processes
291 00:18:46,300 --> 00:18:48,300 that took place in Venezuela.
292 00:18:48,300 --> 00:18:49,300 So there is,
293 00:18:49,300 --> 00:18:50,300 for example,
294 00:18:50,300 --> 00:18:53,300 a state cup that was carried out in 1958,
295 00:18:53,300 --> 00:18:55,300 there was a dictatorship with Jimenez,
296 00:18:55,300 --> 00:18:57,300 but also in the beginning of the 19th century,
297 00:18:57,300 --> 00:19:00,300 there was a blockade against one of the presidents
298 00:19:00,300 --> 00:19:03,300 who wanted to get control over oil.
299 00:19:03,300 --> 00:19:05,300 And the USA blocked it,
300 00:19:05,300 --> 00:19:07,300 and then a state cup was carried out
301 00:19:07,300 --> 00:19:09,300 in the beginning of the 19th century as well.
302 00:19:09,300 --> 00:19:10,300 So actually,
303 00:19:10,300 --> 00:19:12,300 it has never been so calm
304 00:19:12,300 --> 00:19:14,300 as you want to say,
305 00:19:14,300 --> 00:19:15,300 but when you start scratching,
306 00:19:15,300 --> 00:19:16,300 and above all,
307 00:19:16,300 --> 00:19:17,300 you know,
308 00:19:17,300 --> 00:19:19,300 when you talk to some Venezuelans who say,
309 00:19:19,300 --> 00:19:21,300 hey, but before Chavez,
310 00:19:21,300 --> 00:19:22,300 what do they usually say?
311 00:19:22,300 --> 00:19:23,300 They usually say,
312 00:19:23,300 --> 00:19:24,300 well,
313 00:19:24,300 --> 00:19:25,300 we didn't know what we had,
314 00:19:25,300 --> 00:19:26,300 and so on.
315 00:19:26,300 --> 00:19:28,300 And when you start talking to them,
316 00:19:28,300 --> 00:19:29,300 and mention,
317 00:19:29,300 --> 00:19:30,300 so to speak,
318 00:19:30,300 --> 00:19:31,300 all these conflicts
319 00:19:31,300 --> 00:19:33,300 that were in Venezuela,
320 00:19:33,300 --> 00:19:34,300 then they don't want to talk anymore,
321 00:19:34,300 --> 00:19:35,300 and then say,
322 00:19:35,300 --> 00:19:36,300 oh no,
323 00:19:36,300 --> 00:19:37,300 but it may not have been
324 00:19:37,300 --> 00:19:38,300 everything so good,
325 00:19:38,300 --> 00:19:39,300 and so on.
326 00:19:39,300 --> 00:19:41,300 But just to make it a little short,
327 00:19:41,300 --> 00:19:44,300 after 1958,
328 00:19:44,300 --> 00:19:47,300 you actually agree
329 00:19:47,300 --> 00:19:50,300 that you should try to control the country
330 00:19:50,300 --> 00:19:51,300 and get control over the country.
331 00:19:51,300 --> 00:19:53,300 And what you come across is that
332 00:19:53,300 --> 00:19:54,300 there are two parties
333 00:19:54,300 --> 00:19:55,300 who are going to be lucky enough
334 00:19:55,300 --> 00:19:56,300 to sit in power.
335 00:19:56,300 --> 00:19:58,300 So every time one of these parties
336 00:19:58,300 --> 00:19:59,300 sat in power,
337 00:19:59,300 --> 00:20:01,300 they spent a lot of money
338 00:20:01,300 --> 00:20:02,300 and everything.
339 00:20:02,300 --> 00:20:03,300 So there was no corruption,
340 00:20:03,300 --> 00:20:05,300 because they knew that the next time
341 00:20:05,300 --> 00:20:06,300 they were up,
342 00:20:06,300 --> 00:20:07,300 it would be the others
343 00:20:07,300 --> 00:20:08,300 who would take it.
344 00:20:08,300 --> 00:20:09,300 So that was this
345 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:10,300 bipartisanism,
346 00:20:10,300 --> 00:20:12,300 what is called bipartisanism,
347 00:20:12,300 --> 00:20:13,300 that is,
348 00:20:13,300 --> 00:20:14,300 two parties
349 00:20:14,300 --> 00:20:15,300 who are lucky enough
350 00:20:15,300 --> 00:20:16,300 to sit in power.
351 00:20:16,300 --> 00:20:18,300 But this power,
352 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:19,300 the political power,
353 00:20:19,300 --> 00:20:20,300 was also
354 00:20:20,300 --> 00:20:22,300 a little raw.
355 00:20:22,300 --> 00:20:25,300 And just to mention one thing
356 00:20:25,300 --> 00:20:26,300 that few people know,
357 00:20:26,300 --> 00:20:27,300 you know,
358 00:20:27,300 --> 00:20:28,300 in Latin America
359 00:20:28,300 --> 00:20:30,300 we have been affected by
360 00:20:30,300 --> 00:20:31,300 what is called
361 00:20:31,300 --> 00:20:33,300 political disappearance.
362 00:20:33,300 --> 00:20:34,300 For example,
363 00:20:34,300 --> 00:20:35,300 in Argentina
364 00:20:35,300 --> 00:20:36,300 there are about 30,000 people
365 00:20:36,300 --> 00:20:37,300 who have disappeared
366 00:20:37,300 --> 00:20:39,300 for political reasons.
367 00:20:39,300 --> 00:20:40,300 Most of them
368 00:20:40,300 --> 00:20:42,300 have not been able
369 00:20:42,300 --> 00:20:44,300 to be found,
370 00:20:44,300 --> 00:20:45,300 so to speak.
371 00:20:45,300 --> 00:20:46,300 And that was something
372 00:20:46,300 --> 00:20:47,300 that happened
373 00:20:47,300 --> 00:20:48,300 not only in Argentina,
374 00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:49,300 but also in Chile,
375 00:20:49,300 --> 00:20:50,300 Peru,
376 00:20:50,300 --> 00:20:51,300 Uruguay,
377 00:20:51,300 --> 00:20:52,300 Paraguay,
378 00:20:52,300 --> 00:20:53,300 where the first time
379 00:20:53,300 --> 00:20:54,300 that this method
380 00:20:54,300 --> 00:20:55,300 was used
381 00:20:55,300 --> 00:20:56,300 was in Venezuela,
382 00:20:56,300 --> 00:20:57,300 actually.
383 00:20:57,300 --> 00:20:58,300 This method
384 00:20:58,300 --> 00:20:59,300 of taking people
385 00:20:59,300 --> 00:21:00,300 and then
386 00:21:00,300 --> 00:21:01,300 making them disappear
387 00:21:01,300 --> 00:21:02,300 completely,
388 00:21:02,300 --> 00:21:03,300 killing them
389 00:21:03,300 --> 00:21:04,300 or doing something,
390 00:21:04,300 --> 00:21:05,300 was something
391 00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:06,300 that came from
392 00:21:06,300 --> 00:21:07,300 France.
393 00:21:07,300 --> 00:21:08,300 It was during
394 00:21:08,300 --> 00:21:09,300 the Algerian war.
395 00:21:09,300 --> 00:21:10,300 This method
396 00:21:10,300 --> 00:21:11,300 was used
397 00:21:11,300 --> 00:21:12,300 in cities,
398 00:21:12,300 --> 00:21:13,300 especially in Algeria.
399 00:21:13,300 --> 00:21:14,300 And this method
400 00:21:14,300 --> 00:21:15,300 was taken
401 00:21:15,300 --> 00:21:16,300 with it
402 00:21:16,300 --> 00:21:17,300 to Latin America
403 00:21:17,300 --> 00:21:18,300 to test
404 00:21:18,300 --> 00:21:19,300 whether
405 00:21:19,300 --> 00:21:20,300 you could do it.
406 00:21:20,300 --> 00:21:21,300 And when you
407 00:21:21,300 --> 00:21:22,300 tested it
408 00:21:22,300 --> 00:21:23,300 and got,
409 00:21:23,300 --> 00:21:24,300 so to speak,
410 00:21:24,300 --> 00:21:25,300 it seems like
411 00:21:25,300 --> 00:21:26,300 a good result,
412 00:21:26,300 --> 00:21:27,300 it was in Venezuela,
413 00:21:27,300 --> 00:21:28,300 one of the first countries
414 00:21:28,300 --> 00:21:29,300 where it was used.
415 00:21:29,300 --> 00:21:30,300 And then it came to,
416 00:21:30,300 --> 00:21:31,300 so to speak,
417 00:21:31,300 --> 00:21:32,300 all the other countries
418 00:21:32,300 --> 00:21:33,300 in South America
419 00:21:33,300 --> 00:21:34,300 that it was used.
420 00:21:34,300 --> 00:21:35,300 But first,
421 00:21:35,300 --> 00:21:36,300 the father of death
422 00:21:36,300 --> 00:21:37,300 in El Salvador,
423 00:21:37,300 --> 00:21:38,300 who, so to speak,
424 00:21:38,300 --> 00:21:39,300 was spread
425 00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:40,300 to other countries
426 00:21:40,300 --> 00:21:41,300 just like that.
427 00:21:41,300 --> 00:21:42,300 She who is
428 00:21:42,300 --> 00:21:43,300 now the interim
429 00:21:43,300 --> 00:21:44,300 president
430 00:21:44,300 --> 00:21:46,300 of Delphi Rodriguez,
431 00:21:46,300 --> 00:21:47,300 you know,
432 00:21:47,300 --> 00:21:48,300 her father
433 00:21:48,300 --> 00:21:49,300 is one
434 00:21:49,300 --> 00:21:50,300 of those
435 00:21:50,300 --> 00:21:51,300 who
436 00:21:51,300 --> 00:21:52,300 in 1976
437 00:21:52,300 --> 00:21:53,300 was murdered
438 00:21:53,300 --> 00:21:54,300 in torture.
439 00:21:54,300 --> 00:21:55,300 So he was tortured
440 00:21:55,300 --> 00:21:56,300 to death
441 00:21:56,300 --> 00:21:57,300 by the power
442 00:21:57,300 --> 00:21:58,300 that existed
443 00:21:58,300 --> 00:21:59,300 then,
444 00:21:59,300 --> 00:22:00,300 the government
445 00:22:00,300 --> 00:22:09,170 that existed then.
446 00:22:09,170 --> 00:22:10,170 So many
447 00:22:10,170 --> 00:22:11,170 of the leaders
448 00:22:11,170 --> 00:22:12,170 today
449 00:22:12,170 --> 00:22:13,170 in Venezuela
450 00:22:13,170 --> 00:22:14,170 have survived
451 00:22:14,170 --> 00:22:15,170 repression,
452 00:22:15,170 --> 00:22:16,170 oppression,
453 00:22:16,170 --> 00:22:17,170 right-wing
454 00:22:17,170 --> 00:22:18,170 governments
455 00:22:18,170 --> 00:22:19,170 that were
456 00:22:19,170 --> 00:22:20,170 in the 70s,
457 00:22:20,170 --> 00:22:21,170 80s and
458 00:22:21,170 --> 00:22:22,170 90s,
459 00:22:22,170 --> 00:22:23,170 quite simply.
460 00:22:23,170 --> 00:22:24,170 It's actually
461 00:22:24,170 --> 00:22:25,170 no secret.
462 00:22:25,170 --> 00:22:26,170 It's just
463 00:22:26,170 --> 00:22:27,170 history.
464 00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:28,170 The two brothers,
465 00:22:28,170 --> 00:22:29,170 Delphi Rodriguez
466 00:22:29,170 --> 00:22:30,170 who is the interim
467 00:22:30,170 --> 00:22:31,170 president
468 00:22:31,170 --> 00:22:32,170 and then
469 00:22:32,170 --> 00:22:33,170 you have
470 00:22:33,170 --> 00:22:34,170 Jorge Rodriguez
471 00:22:34,170 --> 00:22:35,170 who is the
472 00:22:35,170 --> 00:22:36,170 chairman
473 00:22:36,170 --> 00:22:37,170 of the National Assembly.
474 00:22:37,170 --> 00:22:38,170 Both,
475 00:22:38,170 --> 00:22:39,170 so to speak,
476 00:22:39,170 --> 00:22:40,170 became active
477 00:22:40,170 --> 00:22:41,170 because of
478 00:22:41,170 --> 00:22:42,170 her father.
479 00:22:42,170 --> 00:22:43,170 So that conflict
480 00:22:43,170 --> 00:22:44,170 has existed.
481 00:22:44,170 --> 00:22:45,170 There are
482 00:22:45,170 --> 00:22:46,170 several
483 00:22:46,170 --> 00:22:47,170 who are
484 00:22:47,170 --> 00:22:48,170 on the opposition
485 00:22:48,170 --> 00:22:49,170 side today
486 00:22:49,170 --> 00:22:50,170 and have gone
487 00:22:50,170 --> 00:22:51,170 to the right
488 00:22:51,170 --> 00:22:52,170 who come
489 00:22:52,170 --> 00:22:53,170 from families
490 00:22:53,170 --> 00:22:54,170 who were active
491 00:22:54,170 --> 00:22:55,170 in the 90s
492 00:22:55,170 --> 00:22:56,170 as well.
493 00:22:56,170 --> 00:22:57,170 So they have
494 00:22:57,170 --> 00:22:58,170 a common history.
495 00:22:58,170 --> 00:22:59,170 If we go
496 00:22:59,170 --> 00:23:00,170 forward to
497 00:23:00,170 --> 00:23:01,170 the Bolivarian
498 00:23:01,170 --> 00:23:02,170 revolution
499 00:23:02,170 --> 00:23:03,170 then
500 00:23:03,170 --> 00:23:04,170 and
501 00:23:04,170 --> 00:23:05,170 the movement
502 00:23:05,170 --> 00:23:06,170 that
503 00:23:06,170 --> 00:23:07,170 Hugo Chavez
504 00:23:07,170 --> 00:23:08,170 came with.
505 00:23:08,170 --> 00:23:09,170 It was
506 00:23:09,170 --> 00:23:10,170 at the end
507 00:23:10,170 --> 00:23:11,170 of the 90s
508 00:23:11,170 --> 00:23:12,170 that
509 00:23:12,170 --> 00:23:13,170 the general
510 00:23:13,170 --> 00:23:14,170 election
511 00:23:14,170 --> 00:23:15,170 was won.
512 00:23:15,170 --> 00:23:16,170 Where did
513 00:23:16,170 --> 00:23:17,170 this movement
514 00:23:17,170 --> 00:23:18,170 come from?
515 00:23:18,170 --> 00:23:19,170 New liberalism
516 00:23:19,170 --> 00:23:20,170 had
517 00:23:20,170 --> 00:23:21,170 so to say
518 00:23:21,170 --> 00:23:22,170 got
519 00:23:22,170 --> 00:23:23,170 hegemony
520 00:23:23,170 --> 00:23:24,170 over
521 00:23:24,170 --> 00:23:26,170 not only
522 00:23:26,170 --> 00:23:27,170 politically
523 00:23:27,170 --> 00:23:28,170 but also
524 00:23:28,170 --> 00:23:29,170 culturally
525 00:23:29,170 --> 00:23:30,170 and also
526 00:23:30,170 --> 00:23:31,170 organisational.
527 00:23:31,170 --> 00:23:32,170 So even
528 00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:33,170 the old
529 00:23:33,170 --> 00:23:34,170 left-wing
530 00:23:34,170 --> 00:23:35,170 parties
531 00:23:35,170 --> 00:23:36,170 had
532 00:23:36,170 --> 00:23:37,170 in one way
533 00:23:37,170 --> 00:23:38,170 or another
534 00:23:38,170 --> 00:23:39,170 compromised
535 00:23:39,170 --> 00:23:40,170 with
536 00:23:40,170 --> 00:23:41,170 the new liberalism
537 00:23:41,170 --> 00:23:42,170 which made
538 00:23:42,170 --> 00:23:43,170 them play
539 00:23:43,170 --> 00:23:44,170 their role.
540 00:23:44,170 --> 00:23:45,170 And that was
541 00:23:45,170 --> 00:23:46,170 what happened
542 00:23:46,170 --> 00:23:47,170 in several
543 00:23:47,170 --> 00:23:48,170 of these
544 00:23:48,170 --> 00:23:49,170 countries.
545 00:23:49,170 --> 00:23:50,170 For example
546 00:23:50,170 --> 00:23:51,170 Bolivia
547 00:23:51,170 --> 00:23:52,170 but also
548 00:23:52,170 --> 00:23:53,170 Peru
549 00:23:53,170 --> 00:23:54,170 but also
550 00:23:54,170 --> 00:23:55,170 politically
551 00:23:55,170 --> 00:23:56,170 but also
552 00:23:56,170 --> 00:23:57,170 ideologically
553 00:23:57,170 --> 00:23:58,170 and
554 00:23:58,170 --> 00:23:59,170 organisational
555 00:23:59,170 --> 00:24:00,170 these
556 00:24:00,170 --> 00:24:01,170 left-wing
557 00:24:01,170 --> 00:24:02,170 parties.
558 00:24:02,170 --> 00:24:03,170 So what
559 00:24:03,170 --> 00:24:04,170 grew up
560 00:24:04,170 --> 00:24:05,170 which I think
561 00:24:05,170 --> 00:24:06,170 is very
562 00:24:06,170 --> 00:24:07,170 interesting
563 00:24:07,170 --> 00:24:08,170 not only
564 00:24:08,170 --> 00:24:09,170 from a
565 00:24:09,170 --> 00:24:10,170 political
566 00:24:10,170 --> 00:24:11,170 perspective
567 00:24:11,170 --> 00:24:12,170 but also
568 00:24:12,170 --> 00:24:13,170 sociological
569 00:24:13,170 --> 00:24:14,170 is that
570 00:24:14,170 --> 00:24:15,170 a movement
571 00:24:15,170 --> 00:24:16,170 that
572 00:24:16,170 --> 00:24:17,170 consists
573 00:24:17,170 --> 00:24:18,170 of several
574 00:24:18,170 --> 00:24:19,170 different
575 00:24:19,170 --> 00:24:20,170 movements
576 00:24:20,170 --> 00:24:21,170 is growing
577 00:24:21,170 --> 00:24:22,170 up
578 00:24:22,170 --> 00:24:23,170 and
579 00:24:23,170 --> 00:24:24,170 is
580 00:24:24,170 --> 00:24:25,170 where
581 00:24:25,170 --> 00:24:26,170 capital
582 00:24:26,170 --> 00:24:27,170 especially
583 00:24:27,170 --> 00:24:28,170 international
584 00:24:28,170 --> 00:24:29,170 capital
585 00:24:29,170 --> 00:24:30,170 financial capital
586 00:24:30,170 --> 00:24:31,170 was forced
587 00:24:31,170 --> 00:24:32,170 into society
588 00:24:32,170 --> 00:24:33,170 and
589 00:24:33,170 --> 00:24:34,170 taken over
590 00:24:34,170 --> 00:24:35,170 quite a lot
591 00:24:35,170 --> 00:24:36,170 and controlled
592 00:24:36,170 --> 00:24:37,170 quite a lot.
593 00:24:37,170 --> 00:24:38,170 And then
594 00:24:38,170 --> 00:24:39,170 you get
595 00:24:39,170 --> 00:24:40,170 this movement
596 00:24:40,170 --> 00:24:41,170 when you
597 00:24:41,170 --> 00:24:42,170 start
598 00:24:42,170 --> 00:24:43,170 channelising
599 00:24:43,170 --> 00:24:44,170 and
600 00:24:44,170 --> 00:24:45,170 start
601 00:24:45,170 --> 00:24:46,170 organising
602 00:24:46,170 --> 00:24:47,170 you get
603 00:24:47,170 --> 00:24:48,170 it
604 00:24:48,170 --> 00:24:49,170 in
605 00:24:49,170 --> 00:24:50,170 different
606 00:24:50,170 --> 00:24:51,170 ways
607 00:24:51,170 --> 00:24:52,170 and
608 00:24:52,170 --> 00:24:53,170 it's
609 00:24:53,170 --> 00:24:54,170 a movement
610 00:24:54,170 --> 00:24:55,170 that
611 00:24:55,170 --> 00:24:56,170 was
612 00:24:56,170 --> 00:24:57,170 the best
613 00:24:57,170 --> 00:24:58,170 organised
614 00:24:58,170 --> 00:24:59,170 and could
615 00:24:59,170 --> 00:25:00,170 channelise
616 00:25:00,170 --> 00:25:01,170 all
617 00:25:01,170 --> 00:25:02,170 this
618 00:25:02,170 --> 00:25:03,170 political
619 00:25:03,170 --> 00:25:04,170 resistance
620 00:25:04,170 --> 00:25:05,170 to
621 00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:06,170 neoliberalism
622 00:25:06,170 --> 00:25:07,170 for natural
623 00:25:07,170 --> 00:25:08,170 reasons
624 00:25:08,170 --> 00:25:09,170 there were
625 00:25:09,170 --> 00:25:10,170 many
626 00:25:10,170 --> 00:25:11,170 but they
627 00:25:11,170 --> 00:25:12,170 also
628 00:25:12,170 --> 00:25:13,170 stood
629 00:25:13,170 --> 00:25:14,170 a little
630 00:25:14,170 --> 00:25:15,170 outside
631 00:25:15,170 --> 00:25:16,170 society
632 00:25:16,170 --> 00:25:17,170 which
633 00:25:17,170 --> 00:25:18,170 made
634 00:25:18,170 --> 00:25:19,170 them
635 00:25:19,170 --> 00:25:20,170 able
636 00:25:20,170 --> 00:25:21,170 to
637 00:25:21,170 --> 00:25:22,170 take
638 00:25:22,170 --> 00:25:23,170 a step
639 00:25:23,170 --> 00:25:24,170 in
640 00:25:24,170 --> 00:25:25,170 the right
641 00:25:25,170 --> 00:25:26,170 direction
642 00:25:26,170 --> 00:25:27,170 and
643 00:25:27,170 --> 00:25:28,170 in
644 00:25:28,170 --> 00:25:29,170 the right
645 00:25:29,170 --> 00:25:30,170 direction
646 00:25:30,170 --> 00:25:31,170 and
647 00:25:31,170 --> 00:25:32,170 in
648 00:25:32,170 --> 00:25:33,170 the right
649 00:25:33,170 --> 00:25:34,170 direction
650 00:25:34,170 --> 00:25:35,170 so
651 00:25:35,170 --> 00:25:36,170 that
652 00:25:36,170 --> 00:25:37,170 it
653 00:25:37,170 --> 00:25:38,170 was
654 00:25:38,170 --> 00:25:39,170 a
655 00:25:39,170 --> 00:25:40,170 very
656 00:25:40,170 --> 00:25:41,170 serious
657 00:25:41,170 --> 00:25:42,170 way
658 00:25:42,170 --> 00:25:43,170 of
659 00:25:43,170 --> 00:25:44,170 organizing
660 00:25:44,170 --> 00:25:45,170 the
661 00:25:45,170 --> 00:25:46,170 government
662 00:25:46,170 --> 00:25:47,170 so
663 00:25:47,170 --> 00:25:48,170 that
664 00:25:48,170 --> 00:25:49,170 it
665 00:25:49,170 --> 00:25:57,170 and compromises here and there, the military could still find a channel that was much simpler and more organized.
666 00:25:57,170 --> 00:26:05,170 The other thing that is important is that the Bolivarian idea of independence has always existed.
667 00:26:05,170 --> 00:26:13,170 There was an ideological basis, which was not socialist or leftist, but Bolivarian.
668 00:26:13,170 --> 00:26:17,170 For independence, for the country's independence.
669 00:26:17,170 --> 00:26:23,170 The third thing that I would say is important, that it is military and that it is just Chávez,
670 00:26:23,170 --> 00:26:31,170 is that unlike other countries, for example in Chile, the defense forces have always had a class division.
671 00:26:31,170 --> 00:26:35,170 The officers were always from the middle class up to the elite.
672 00:26:35,170 --> 00:26:39,170 And then the soldiers were always working class.
673 00:26:39,170 --> 00:26:43,170 And then the soldiers could not become officers, but they always became soldiers.
674 00:26:43,170 --> 00:26:47,170 So it was such a remarkable class division.
675 00:26:47,170 --> 00:26:53,170 In Venezuela, unlike most countries in Latin America, a soldier could become an officer.
676 00:26:53,170 --> 00:26:55,170 Just like Chávez became.
677 00:26:55,170 --> 00:26:59,170 So Chávez comes from a poor family.
678 00:26:59,170 --> 00:27:01,170 His parents were teachers.
679 00:27:01,170 --> 00:27:03,170 And he did not even come from Caracas, he came from Barinas.
680 00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:07,170 And there he became a soldier and then he became an officer.
681 00:27:07,170 --> 00:27:11,170 So there the class perspective also plays a role.
682 00:27:11,170 --> 00:27:13,170 They had the ideological with the Bolivarianism.
683 00:27:13,170 --> 00:27:15,170 Then they also had the structure, the organization.
684 00:27:15,170 --> 00:27:17,170 And then they also had the class perspective.
685 00:27:17,170 --> 00:27:23,170 And then they also had the class awareness that made them able to go together.
686 00:27:23,170 --> 00:27:27,170 So while the left-wing politicians are compromising with the power in many different ways.
687 00:27:27,170 --> 00:27:35,170 They even sat in governments that actually carried out neoliberal politics at all.
688 00:27:35,170 --> 00:27:41,170 Then a dissatisfaction began to grow and above all there were expressions to do something.
689 00:27:41,170 --> 00:27:45,170 And what they do is, there are two, I would say two dates that are important here.
690 00:27:45,170 --> 00:27:53,170 The first is 1989, when the wall falls in Western Europe.
691 00:27:53,170 --> 00:27:59,170 Then there is an enormous revolt in Venezuela called Caracas.
692 00:27:59,170 --> 00:28:01,170 Which comes from Caracas.
693 00:28:01,170 --> 00:28:03,170 A big event.
694 00:28:03,170 --> 00:28:09,170 And it is people from the slum areas, from the mountains, who come down to the city and protest.
695 00:28:09,170 --> 00:28:13,170 And then goes the social democratic government, which was a neoliberal government.
696 00:28:13,170 --> 00:28:21,170 They go out, take out the military and kill maybe six, eight thousand people.
697 00:28:21,170 --> 00:28:25,170 It is something that you hardly know about.
698 00:28:25,170 --> 00:28:27,170 That today murder six, eight thousand people.
699 00:28:27,170 --> 00:28:29,170 Today.
700 00:28:29,170 --> 00:28:33,170 And if you do it, then it would become a norm.
701 00:28:33,170 --> 00:28:35,170 Then there was no one who cared about it.
702 00:28:35,170 --> 00:28:37,170 I don't know if you recognized it.
703 00:28:37,170 --> 00:28:39,170 It was the first big one.
704 00:28:39,170 --> 00:28:41,170 And it was very unorganized, so to speak.
705 00:28:41,170 --> 00:28:43,170 There was no real organization behind it.
706 00:28:43,170 --> 00:28:45,170 It was more spontaneous.
707 00:28:45,170 --> 00:28:49,170 Where you went out and protested against poverty, neoliberalism and so on.
708 00:28:49,170 --> 00:28:57,170 And what happens is that in 1992, Chavez and other officers, who were Bolivarians,
709 00:28:57,170 --> 00:29:01,170 who run a state coup that is totally failed.
710 00:29:01,170 --> 00:29:07,170 And what happens with Chavez, who is very stupid and thinks he is the leader,
711 00:29:07,170 --> 00:29:11,170 is that he goes out in the media, on TV,
712 00:29:11,170 --> 00:29:13,170 when they understand that they have failed.
713 00:29:13,170 --> 00:29:15,170 And then he goes out and says,
714 00:29:15,170 --> 00:29:17,170 OK, we failed for the present, he says.
715 00:29:17,170 --> 00:29:19,170 It became like this.
716 00:29:19,170 --> 00:29:21,170 For a few years, he says, for the present.
717 00:29:21,170 --> 00:29:23,170 For a while.
718 00:29:23,170 --> 00:29:25,170 Yes, for a while.
719 00:29:25,170 --> 00:29:27,170 And then he recognizes that they have done it.
720 00:29:27,170 --> 00:29:29,170 Many times they say,
721 00:29:29,170 --> 00:29:33,170 Chavez tried to carry out a state coup.
722 00:29:33,170 --> 00:29:35,170 Yes, he was a coup leader.
723 00:29:35,170 --> 00:29:37,170 He wanted to carry out a state coup.
724 00:29:37,170 --> 00:29:39,170 But he recognized it.
725 00:29:39,170 --> 00:29:41,170 And he took responsibility.
726 00:29:41,170 --> 00:29:43,170 His leadership increased enormously.
727 00:29:43,170 --> 00:29:45,170 He strengthened enormously.
728 00:29:45,170 --> 00:29:47,170 He said, we have failed.
729 00:29:47,170 --> 00:29:49,170 And then he went to prison.
730 00:29:49,170 --> 00:29:51,170 And he was in prison.
731 00:29:51,170 --> 00:29:53,170 And then his leadership began.
732 00:29:53,170 --> 00:29:55,170 He started to get famous.
733 00:29:55,170 --> 00:29:57,170 Maduro's wife, Silja Flores,
734 00:29:57,170 --> 00:29:59,170 who is now in New York.
735 00:29:59,170 --> 00:30:01,170 She was a lawyer then.
736 00:30:01,170 --> 00:30:03,170 A young lawyer.
737 00:30:03,170 --> 00:30:07,170 And she was one of those who defended Chavez in 1992.
738 00:30:07,170 --> 00:30:09,170 Just so you understand the anecdote.
739 00:30:09,170 --> 00:30:11,170 She is not the one who became.
740 00:30:11,170 --> 00:30:13,170 She was one of those
741 00:30:13,170 --> 00:30:15,170 talented young lawyers
742 00:30:15,170 --> 00:30:17,170 who had also become active
743 00:30:17,170 --> 00:30:19,170 and defended him together with others.
744 00:30:19,170 --> 00:30:21,170 Then he came out.
745 00:30:21,170 --> 00:30:23,170 Chavez came out in 1994.
746 00:30:23,170 --> 00:30:25,170 And then they started discussing
747 00:30:25,170 --> 00:30:27,170 what to do.
748 00:30:27,170 --> 00:30:29,170 Then the right was paralyzed.
749 00:30:29,170 --> 00:30:31,170 It was difficult
750 00:30:31,170 --> 00:30:33,170 to come up with
751 00:30:33,170 --> 00:30:35,170 some political initiatives.
752 00:30:35,170 --> 00:30:37,170 And the left had come together with
753 00:30:37,170 --> 00:30:39,170 social democrats and especially
754 00:30:39,170 --> 00:30:41,170 center right parties.
755 00:30:41,170 --> 00:30:43,170 What they did was compromise.
756 00:30:43,170 --> 00:30:45,170 They let him out in 1994.
757 00:30:45,170 --> 00:30:47,170 And then he went to
758 00:30:47,170 --> 00:30:49,170 Mexico.
759 00:30:49,170 --> 00:30:51,170 In Mexico
760 00:30:51,170 --> 00:30:53,170 there is a big
761 00:30:53,170 --> 00:30:55,170 leftist meeting
762 00:30:55,170 --> 00:30:57,170 for the whole of Latin America.
763 00:30:57,170 --> 00:30:59,170 Where they had gathered
764 00:30:59,170 --> 00:31:01,170 and Lula and others
765 00:31:01,170 --> 00:31:03,170 had started to plan
766 00:31:03,170 --> 00:31:05,170 that the left would try
767 00:31:05,170 --> 00:31:07,170 to win elections instead of
768 00:31:07,170 --> 00:31:09,170 continuing to demonstrate.
769 00:31:09,170 --> 00:31:11,170 And in some countries there were
770 00:31:11,170 --> 00:31:13,170 armed resistance.
771 00:31:13,170 --> 00:31:15,170 And not only Lula but
772 00:31:15,170 --> 00:31:17,170 several other leftist parties
773 00:31:17,170 --> 00:31:19,170 wanted to take over the political power.
774 00:31:19,170 --> 00:31:21,170 And then they had a meeting
775 00:31:21,170 --> 00:31:23,170 in 1994 in Mexico.
776 00:31:23,170 --> 00:31:25,170 And then Chavez came there.
777 00:31:25,170 --> 00:31:27,170 But when he wanted to talk
778 00:31:27,170 --> 00:31:29,170 he didn't get it.
779 00:31:29,170 --> 00:31:31,170 He said you are a military
780 00:31:31,170 --> 00:31:33,170 and have carried out a state coup.
781 00:31:33,170 --> 00:31:35,170 You do not belong to the left.
782 00:31:35,170 --> 00:31:37,170 He was not a leftist.
783 00:31:37,170 --> 00:31:39,170 But it was so clear.
784 00:31:39,170 --> 00:31:41,170 I met a friend
785 00:31:41,170 --> 00:31:43,170 who was a member of that meeting.
786 00:31:43,170 --> 00:31:45,170 He came from Chile.
787 00:31:45,170 --> 00:31:47,170 He was a member of one of the political parties
788 00:31:47,170 --> 00:31:49,170 from Chile.
789 00:31:49,170 --> 00:31:51,170 And then a man came
790 00:31:51,170 --> 00:31:53,170 who was a military officer
791 00:31:53,170 --> 00:31:55,170 and tried to carry out a state coup.
792 00:31:55,170 --> 00:31:57,170 Of course we could not
793 00:31:57,170 --> 00:31:59,170 let him in.
794 00:31:59,170 --> 00:32:01,170 So he was excluded from that meeting.
795 00:32:01,170 --> 00:32:03,170 He was not allowed to be a member.
796 00:32:03,170 --> 00:32:05,170 And guess who takes him in.
797 00:32:05,170 --> 00:32:07,170 That year.
798 00:32:07,170 --> 00:32:09,170 He was blocked from the whole left in Latin America.
799 00:32:09,170 --> 00:32:11,170 But there are at least some
800 00:32:11,170 --> 00:32:13,170 who take him in.
801 00:32:13,170 --> 00:32:15,170 Guess who it is.
802 00:32:15,170 --> 00:32:17,170 No, I can't guess.
803 00:32:17,170 --> 00:32:19,170 Fidel Castro.
804 00:32:19,170 --> 00:32:21,170 Fidel Castro, of course.
805 00:32:23,170 --> 00:32:25,170 He goes to Cuba
806 00:32:25,170 --> 00:32:27,170 and talks with Fidel Castro.
807 00:32:27,170 --> 00:32:29,170 There it turns in Latin America.
808 00:32:29,170 --> 00:32:31,170 Then you start to understand
809 00:32:31,170 --> 00:32:33,170 that it may not be so dangerous.
810 00:32:33,170 --> 00:32:35,170 You know, the Cubans,
811 00:32:35,170 --> 00:32:37,170 just as I said in the beginning,
812 00:32:37,170 --> 00:32:39,170 when they carry out the revolution
813 00:32:39,170 --> 00:32:41,170 they also have nationalism.
814 00:32:41,170 --> 00:32:43,170 They have an ideologue
815 00:32:43,170 --> 00:32:45,170 who is Martí.
816 00:32:45,170 --> 00:32:47,170 The poet and fighter.
817 00:32:47,170 --> 00:32:49,170 They could talk about Martí
818 00:32:49,170 --> 00:32:51,170 and Bolívar.
819 00:32:51,170 --> 00:32:53,170 Two heroes
820 00:32:53,170 --> 00:32:55,170 in the independence movement
821 00:32:55,170 --> 00:32:57,170 in Latin America.
822 00:32:57,170 --> 00:32:59,170 So they understood each other.
823 00:32:59,170 --> 00:33:01,170 And when he
824 00:33:01,170 --> 00:33:03,170 after the meeting
825 00:33:03,170 --> 00:33:05,170 with Fidel Castro
826 00:33:05,170 --> 00:33:07,170 came back to Venezuela
827 00:33:07,170 --> 00:33:09,170 they have understood
828 00:33:09,170 --> 00:33:11,170 that they have made a decision
829 00:33:11,170 --> 00:33:13,170 which is important.
830 00:33:13,170 --> 00:33:15,170 And that is that they
831 00:33:15,170 --> 00:33:17,170 will challenge the right
832 00:33:17,170 --> 00:33:19,170 and the old left
833 00:33:19,170 --> 00:33:21,170 in political power.
834 00:33:21,170 --> 00:33:23,170 That they will win elections.
835 00:33:23,170 --> 00:33:25,170 And then they start to build up a movement.
836 00:33:25,170 --> 00:33:27,170 And that movement consists of
837 00:33:27,170 --> 00:33:29,170 mainly many officers
838 00:33:29,170 --> 00:33:31,170 who are with us.
839 00:33:31,170 --> 00:33:33,170 Young officers.
840 00:33:33,170 --> 00:33:35,170 Bolivarianos, of course.
841 00:33:35,170 --> 00:33:37,170 But there are also two other movements.
842 00:33:37,170 --> 00:33:39,170 A movement that comes from the left.
843 00:33:39,170 --> 00:33:41,170 A lot of people from the left
844 00:33:41,170 --> 00:33:43,170 who are dissatisfied with
845 00:33:43,170 --> 00:33:45,170 the old left parties.
846 00:33:45,170 --> 00:33:47,170 From the Communist Party,
847 00:33:47,170 --> 00:33:49,170 Socialist Party and other parties.
848 00:33:49,170 --> 00:33:51,170 They also participate in this.
849 00:33:51,170 --> 00:33:53,170 And then there is a movement
850 00:33:53,170 --> 00:33:55,170 that Chávez managed to read off.
851 00:33:55,170 --> 00:33:57,170 It is a movement that exists
852 00:33:57,170 --> 00:33:59,170 in all these countries.
853 00:33:59,170 --> 00:34:01,170 And it is people who
854 00:34:01,170 --> 00:34:03,170 come from the countryside
855 00:34:03,170 --> 00:34:05,170 and small towns.
856 00:34:05,170 --> 00:34:07,170 And because of neoliberalism
857 00:34:07,170 --> 00:34:09,170 they come to the big cities.
858 00:34:09,170 --> 00:34:11,170 And there they are very poor.
859 00:34:11,170 --> 00:34:13,170 They live in poor conditions.
860 00:34:13,170 --> 00:34:15,170 And they build up their own houses
861 00:34:15,170 --> 00:34:17,170 in these big cities.
862 00:34:17,170 --> 00:34:19,170 So when you are in Latin America
863 00:34:19,170 --> 00:34:21,170 you can see in several of these countries
864 00:34:21,170 --> 00:34:23,170 that there are almost
865 00:34:23,170 --> 00:34:25,170 their own cities
866 00:34:25,170 --> 00:34:27,170 that have been built up by the poor.
867 00:34:27,170 --> 00:34:29,170 And that is in Caracas.
868 00:34:29,170 --> 00:34:31,170 So when you come to Caracas
869 00:34:31,170 --> 00:34:33,170 from the airport to Caracas
870 00:34:33,170 --> 00:34:35,170 you can see a lot of mountains.
871 00:34:35,170 --> 00:34:37,170 And you can see up in the mountains
872 00:34:37,170 --> 00:34:39,170 people who moved from
873 00:34:39,170 --> 00:34:41,170 small towns in the countryside
874 00:34:41,170 --> 00:34:43,170 to Caracas
875 00:34:43,170 --> 00:34:45,170 in order to survive at all.
876 00:34:45,170 --> 00:34:47,170 Those groups are not political
877 00:34:47,170 --> 00:34:49,170 in that way.
878 00:34:49,170 --> 00:34:51,170 But they are against neoliberalism
879 00:34:51,170 --> 00:34:53,170 and they are against
880 00:34:53,170 --> 00:34:55,170 how they live.
881 00:34:55,170 --> 00:34:57,170 And Chávez managed to channelize it.
882 00:34:57,170 --> 00:34:59,170 So those three movements
883 00:34:59,170 --> 00:35:01,170 I would say that they became
884 00:35:01,170 --> 00:35:03,170 the basis for what today is Chávezism.
885 00:35:03,170 --> 00:35:05,170 Which also makes that
886 00:35:05,170 --> 00:35:07,170 when you understand the basis, you understand
887 00:35:07,170 --> 00:35:09,170 why there are so many soldiers
888 00:35:09,170 --> 00:35:11,170 who became ministers
889 00:35:11,170 --> 00:35:13,170 in Venezuela, for example.
890 00:35:13,170 --> 00:35:15,170 Which is not the case
891 00:35:15,170 --> 00:35:17,170 in other countries.
892 00:35:17,170 --> 00:35:19,170 Why you have also
893 00:35:19,170 --> 00:35:21,170 in many different ways
894 00:35:21,170 --> 00:35:23,170 worked a lot with what you call
895 00:35:23,170 --> 00:35:25,170 either the popular
896 00:35:25,170 --> 00:35:27,170 or the municipalities
897 00:35:27,170 --> 00:35:29,170 as self-organized.
898 00:35:29,170 --> 00:35:31,170 Because it was there before.
899 00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:33,170 It is a movement that existed
900 00:35:33,170 --> 00:35:35,170 and that came along.
901 00:35:35,170 --> 00:35:37,170 It is now this left-wing theory
902 00:35:37,170 --> 00:35:39,170 and left-wing rhetoric that comes.
903 00:35:39,170 --> 00:35:41,170 But which in the beginning
904 00:35:41,170 --> 00:35:43,170 was not so promising.
905 00:35:43,170 --> 00:35:45,170 It was not until 2005
906 00:35:45,170 --> 00:35:47,170 when Chávez in a few
907 00:35:47,170 --> 00:35:49,170 talked about socialism.
908 00:35:49,170 --> 00:35:51,170 Before that, they talked
909 00:35:51,170 --> 00:35:53,170 a lot about the foster country,
910 00:35:53,170 --> 00:35:55,170 Bolivarianism,
911 00:35:55,170 --> 00:35:57,170 Bolivarian thinking and so on.
912 00:35:57,170 --> 00:35:59,170 So the Bolivarian
913 00:35:59,170 --> 00:36:01,170 thinking was important
914 00:36:01,170 --> 00:36:03,170 at first
915 00:36:03,170 --> 00:36:05,170 and how socialism came in
916 00:36:05,170 --> 00:36:07,170 in the later stages
917 00:36:07,170 --> 00:36:09,170 when they started to call themselves
918 00:36:09,170 --> 00:36:11,170 socialist.
919 00:36:11,170 --> 00:36:13,170 But I think it is enormously exciting
920 00:36:13,170 --> 00:36:15,170 with this movement
921 00:36:15,170 --> 00:36:17,170 with municipalities
922 00:36:17,170 --> 00:36:19,170 and popular power
923 00:36:19,170 --> 00:36:21,170 and the movement from below.
924 00:36:21,170 --> 00:36:23,170 Because it also occurs
925 00:36:23,170 --> 00:36:25,170 at the same time in several Latin American countries
926 00:36:25,170 --> 00:36:27,170 that the Zapatistas
927 00:36:27,170 --> 00:36:29,170 founded their municipalism
928 00:36:29,170 --> 00:36:31,170 or their autonomy
929 00:36:31,170 --> 00:36:33,170 on that movement.
930 00:36:33,170 --> 00:36:35,170 And you have in Brazil
931 00:36:35,170 --> 00:36:37,170 the nationalist movements
932 00:36:37,170 --> 00:36:39,170 around Movimento Sem Terra
933 00:36:39,170 --> 00:36:41,170 which becomes a mass movement
934 00:36:41,170 --> 00:36:43,170 with land occupations
935 00:36:43,170 --> 00:36:45,170 and you have the same
936 00:36:45,170 --> 00:36:47,170 as in Bolivia
937 00:36:47,170 --> 00:36:49,170 and in several countries.
938 00:36:49,170 --> 00:36:51,170 And I know
939 00:36:51,170 --> 00:36:53,170 my great guru is
940 00:36:53,170 --> 00:36:55,170 Antonio Negril.
941 00:36:55,170 --> 00:36:57,170 He wrote a book in prison
942 00:36:57,170 --> 00:36:59,170 called Il potere constituente
943 00:36:59,170 --> 00:37:01,170 The Constituent Power.
944 00:37:01,170 --> 00:37:03,170 And one of his few
945 00:37:03,170 --> 00:37:05,170 who read that book,
946 00:37:05,170 --> 00:37:07,170 it was Chavez
947 00:37:07,170 --> 00:37:09,170 who read it when he was sitting.
948 00:37:09,170 --> 00:37:11,170 And just how a revolution
949 00:37:11,170 --> 00:37:13,170 Chavez won
950 00:37:13,170 --> 00:37:15,170 the election.
951 00:37:15,170 --> 00:37:17,170 He became president
952 00:37:17,170 --> 00:37:19,170 in general elections
953 00:37:19,170 --> 00:37:21,170 so to speak.
954 00:37:21,170 --> 00:37:23,170 When he got the power
955 00:37:23,170 --> 00:37:25,170 this circle was not through
956 00:37:25,170 --> 00:37:27,170 a state coup.
957 00:37:27,170 --> 00:37:29,170 But after that
958 00:37:29,170 --> 00:37:31,170 this encroachment came
959 00:37:31,170 --> 00:37:33,170 to bring down the revolution
960 00:37:33,170 --> 00:37:35,170 to build the municipalities
961 00:37:35,170 --> 00:37:37,170 to cooperate with the municipalities
962 00:37:37,170 --> 00:37:39,170 to cooperate with the
963 00:37:39,170 --> 00:37:41,170 Barrios movement
964 00:37:41,170 --> 00:37:43,170 slum area
965 00:37:43,170 --> 00:37:45,170 Kåkstadsrörelsen
966 00:37:45,170 --> 00:37:47,170 and build all that structure.
967 00:37:47,170 --> 00:37:49,170 So there was
968 00:37:49,170 --> 00:37:51,170 a change
969 00:37:51,170 --> 00:37:53,170 that both
970 00:37:53,170 --> 00:37:55,170 went on
971 00:37:55,170 --> 00:37:57,170 from above
972 00:37:57,170 --> 00:37:59,170 and from below
973 00:37:59,170 --> 00:38:01,170 in Venezuela.
974 00:38:01,170 --> 00:38:03,170 And that movement
975 00:38:03,170 --> 00:38:05,170 is interesting
976 00:38:05,170 --> 00:38:07,170 to follow
977 00:38:07,170 --> 00:38:09,170 because it is still
978 00:38:09,170 --> 00:38:11,170 present today
979 00:38:11,170 --> 00:38:13,170 in some form.
980 00:38:13,170 --> 00:38:15,170 I thought
981 00:38:15,170 --> 00:38:17,170 this is not
982 00:38:17,170 --> 00:38:19,170 unique
983 00:38:19,170 --> 00:38:21,170 as you say
984 00:38:21,170 --> 00:38:23,170 about what is called
985 00:38:23,170 --> 00:38:25,170 popular power.
986 00:38:25,170 --> 00:38:27,170 I come from
987 00:38:27,170 --> 00:38:29,170 a family
988 00:38:29,170 --> 00:38:31,170 that was
989 00:38:31,170 --> 00:38:33,170 active in political parties
990 00:38:33,170 --> 00:38:35,170 and won the election
991 00:38:35,170 --> 00:38:37,170 in 1970
992 00:38:37,170 --> 00:38:39,170 and then came up in 1973
993 00:38:39,170 --> 00:38:41,170 and so on.
994 00:38:41,170 --> 00:38:43,170 They came from
995 00:38:43,170 --> 00:38:45,170 the traditional left
996 00:38:45,170 --> 00:38:47,170 that built up
997 00:38:47,170 --> 00:38:49,170 its political movement
998 00:38:49,170 --> 00:38:51,170 through Kastkamp
999 00:38:51,170 --> 00:38:53,170 and the movement
1000 00:38:53,170 --> 00:38:55,170 in general.
1001 00:38:55,170 --> 00:38:57,170 And the whole idea
1002 00:38:57,170 --> 00:38:59,170 was always
1003 00:38:59,170 --> 00:39:01,170 to win elections
1004 00:39:01,170 --> 00:39:03,170 and that is where
1005 00:39:03,170 --> 00:39:05,170 I came from.
1006 00:39:05,170 --> 00:39:07,170 And it was Agende
1007 00:39:07,170 --> 00:39:09,170 that became the leader
1008 00:39:09,170 --> 00:39:11,170 for the whole
1009 00:39:11,170 --> 00:39:13,170 movement in Chile.
1010 00:39:13,170 --> 00:39:15,170 But in parallel
1011 00:39:15,170 --> 00:39:17,170 there was also
1012 00:39:17,170 --> 00:39:19,170 what is called
1013 00:39:19,170 --> 00:39:21,170 popular power
1014 00:39:21,170 --> 00:39:23,170 in Chile.
1015 00:39:23,170 --> 00:39:25,170 And since there
1016 00:39:25,170 --> 00:39:27,170 has always been
1017 00:39:27,170 --> 00:39:29,170 confrontations
1018 00:39:29,170 --> 00:39:31,170 between Agende
1019 00:39:31,170 --> 00:39:33,170 and the state
1020 00:39:33,170 --> 00:39:35,170 and the good
1021 00:39:35,170 --> 00:39:37,170 and the others
1022 00:39:37,170 --> 00:39:39,170 that were a bit hard to understand
1023 00:39:39,170 --> 00:39:41,170 and a bit crazy
1024 00:39:41,170 --> 00:39:43,170 and so on.
1025 00:39:43,170 --> 00:39:45,170 I found it hard
1026 00:39:45,170 --> 00:39:47,170 to get close
1027 00:39:47,170 --> 00:39:49,170 to them
1028 00:39:49,170 --> 00:39:51,170 and understand them.
1029 00:39:51,170 --> 00:39:53,170 But then when
1030 00:39:53,170 --> 00:39:55,170 neoliberalism came
1031 00:39:55,170 --> 00:39:57,170 you started to understand
1032 00:39:57,170 --> 00:39:59,170 that the opposition
1033 00:39:59,170 --> 00:40:01,170 was being coerced.
1034 00:40:01,170 --> 00:40:03,170 They did not
1035 00:40:03,170 --> 00:40:05,170 seek the power
1036 00:40:05,170 --> 00:40:07,170 of the leaders
1037 00:40:07,170 --> 00:40:09,170 but they were parallel.
1038 00:40:09,170 --> 00:40:11,170 For example in Bolivia
1039 00:40:11,170 --> 00:40:13,170 it is obvious
1040 00:40:13,170 --> 00:40:15,170 that these
1041 00:40:15,170 --> 00:40:17,170 original people
1042 00:40:17,170 --> 00:40:19,170 organizations
1043 00:40:19,170 --> 00:40:21,170 were outside
1044 00:40:21,170 --> 00:40:23,170 the legal
1045 00:40:23,170 --> 00:40:25,170 constitutional power
1046 00:40:25,170 --> 00:40:27,170 that made them
1047 00:40:27,170 --> 00:40:29,170 able to take
1048 00:40:29,170 --> 00:40:31,170 control of the state.
1049 00:40:31,170 --> 00:40:33,170 It was a critique
1050 00:40:33,170 --> 00:40:35,170 that was presented
1051 00:40:35,170 --> 00:40:37,170 to Agende
1052 00:40:37,170 --> 00:40:39,170 that they could not
1053 00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:41,170 only build power
1054 00:40:41,170 --> 00:40:43,170 on the state.
1055 00:40:43,170 --> 00:40:45,170 But Agende was very
1056 00:40:45,170 --> 00:40:47,170 constitutional.
1057 00:40:47,170 --> 00:40:49,170 He followed the constitution
1058 00:40:49,170 --> 00:40:51,170 and Agende also believed
1059 00:40:51,170 --> 00:40:53,170 in the army
1060 00:40:53,170 --> 00:40:55,170 that the defense
1061 00:40:55,170 --> 00:40:57,170 power would respect
1062 00:40:57,170 --> 00:40:59,170 the constitution
1063 00:40:59,170 --> 00:41:01,170 from the left
1064 00:41:01,170 --> 00:41:03,170 and everything
1065 00:41:03,170 --> 00:41:05,170 that talks about
1066 00:41:05,170 --> 00:41:07,170 people power.
1067 00:41:07,170 --> 00:41:09,170 That one must build
1068 00:41:09,170 --> 00:41:11,170 one's own power
1069 00:41:11,170 --> 00:41:13,170 in order to resist
1070 00:41:13,170 --> 00:41:15,170 the state power
1071 00:41:15,170 --> 00:41:17,170 which was
1072 00:41:17,170 --> 00:41:19,170 civil power.
1073 00:41:19,170 --> 00:41:21,170 I know that several
1074 00:41:21,170 --> 00:41:23,170 leaders in Brazil
1075 00:41:23,170 --> 00:41:25,170 but also in Uruguay
1076 00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:27,170 and Argentina
1077 00:41:27,170 --> 00:41:29,170 had come to Chile
1078 00:41:29,170 --> 00:41:31,170 to see what was
1079 00:41:31,170 --> 00:41:33,170 going on.
1080 00:41:33,170 --> 00:41:35,170 It was something
1081 00:41:35,170 --> 00:41:37,170 very special.
1082 00:41:37,170 --> 00:41:39,170 Imagine that
1083 00:41:39,170 --> 00:41:41,170 Che Guevara
1084 00:41:41,170 --> 00:41:43,170 had been murdered
1085 00:41:43,170 --> 00:41:45,170 in 1967
1086 00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:47,170 and the armed
1087 00:41:47,170 --> 00:41:49,170 resistance
1088 00:41:49,170 --> 00:41:51,170 was on the rise.
1089 00:41:51,170 --> 00:41:53,170 Then Agende came
1090 00:41:53,170 --> 00:41:55,170 and said that this
1091 00:41:55,170 --> 00:41:57,170 might be an alternative
1092 00:41:57,170 --> 00:41:59,170 for the left.
1093 00:41:59,170 --> 00:42:01,170 In Brazil and Argentina
1094 00:42:01,170 --> 00:42:03,170 they started to talk
1095 00:42:03,170 --> 00:42:05,170 about not being able
1096 00:42:05,170 --> 00:42:07,170 to put everyone
1097 00:42:07,170 --> 00:42:09,170 on the same
1098 00:42:09,170 --> 00:42:11,170 platform as the state
1099 00:42:11,170 --> 00:42:13,170 but building one's own
1100 00:42:13,170 --> 00:42:15,170 people power.
1101 00:42:15,170 --> 00:42:17,170 With neoliberalism
1102 00:42:17,170 --> 00:42:19,170 there are many
1103 00:42:19,170 --> 00:42:21,170 different types
1104 00:42:21,170 --> 00:42:23,170 of initiatives.
1105 00:42:23,170 --> 00:42:25,170 For example the factories
1106 00:42:25,170 --> 00:42:27,170 in Argentina
1107 00:42:27,170 --> 00:42:29,170 where the Zapatistas
1108 00:42:29,170 --> 00:42:31,170 the Junta de Buen Gobierno
1109 00:42:31,170 --> 00:42:33,170 and Caracoles
1110 00:42:33,170 --> 00:42:35,170 were also Zapatistas.
1111 00:42:35,170 --> 00:42:37,170 In Colombia
1112 00:42:37,170 --> 00:42:39,170 there was the experience
1113 00:42:39,170 --> 00:42:41,170 of the Cauca colombiano.
1114 00:42:41,170 --> 00:42:43,170 There were also types
1115 00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:45,170 of municipalities
1116 00:42:45,170 --> 00:42:47,170 that organized
1117 00:42:47,170 --> 00:42:49,170 themselves against
1118 00:42:49,170 --> 00:42:51,170 power and so on.
1119 00:42:51,170 --> 00:42:53,170 There are many
1120 00:42:53,170 --> 00:42:55,170 different types
1121 00:42:55,170 --> 00:42:57,170 that existed.
1122 00:42:57,170 --> 00:42:59,170 In Venezuela
1123 00:42:59,170 --> 00:43:01,170 there were the poor
1124 00:43:01,170 --> 00:43:03,170 who built their own houses
1125 00:43:03,170 --> 00:43:05,170 and roads
1126 00:43:05,170 --> 00:43:07,170 and roads
1127 00:43:07,170 --> 00:43:09,170 and electricity
1128 00:43:09,170 --> 00:43:11,170 and everything.
1129 00:43:11,170 --> 00:43:13,170 So Chávez
1130 00:43:13,170 --> 00:43:15,170 the first thing
1131 00:43:15,170 --> 00:43:17,170 he did
1132 00:43:17,170 --> 00:43:19,170 was to write
1133 00:43:19,170 --> 00:43:21,170 a new constitution.
1134 00:43:21,170 --> 00:43:23,170 And that's what he did.
1135 00:43:23,170 --> 00:43:25,170 And there comes
1136 00:43:25,170 --> 00:43:27,170 a new constitution
1137 00:43:27,170 --> 00:43:29,170 and he starts
1138 00:43:29,170 --> 00:43:31,170 talking about
1139 00:43:31,170 --> 00:43:33,170 writing something
1140 00:43:33,170 --> 00:43:35,170 about the people's power
1141 00:43:35,170 --> 00:43:37,170 which is not
1142 00:43:37,170 --> 00:43:39,170 the constitutional
1143 00:43:39,170 --> 00:43:41,170 power of the state
1144 00:43:41,170 --> 00:43:43,170 and so on.
1145 00:43:43,170 --> 00:43:45,170 And then you start
1146 00:43:45,170 --> 00:43:47,170 working on it
1147 00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:49,170 and it becomes
1148 00:43:49,170 --> 00:43:51,170 a constitutional assembly
1149 00:43:51,170 --> 00:43:53,170 and you write
1150 00:43:53,170 --> 00:43:55,170 a new constitution
1151 00:43:55,170 --> 00:43:57,170 and the idea
1152 00:43:57,170 --> 00:43:59,170 doesn't come first
1153 00:43:59,170 --> 00:44:01,170 but the practice
1154 00:44:01,170 --> 00:44:03,170 comes first.
1155 00:44:03,170 --> 00:44:05,170 Because there was
1156 00:44:05,170 --> 00:44:07,170 what we call
1157 00:44:07,170 --> 00:44:09,170 a social debt.
1158 00:44:09,170 --> 00:44:11,170 That is to say
1159 00:44:11,170 --> 00:44:13,170 all the poor
1160 00:44:13,170 --> 00:44:15,170 in Venezuela
1161 00:44:15,170 --> 00:44:17,170 those who talk
1162 00:44:17,170 --> 00:44:19,170 about it
1163 00:44:19,170 --> 00:44:21,170 being better
1164 00:44:21,170 --> 00:44:23,170 before Chávez
1165 00:44:23,170 --> 00:44:25,170 so when Chávez
1166 00:44:25,170 --> 00:44:27,170 started
1167 00:44:27,170 --> 00:44:29,170 he said
1168 00:44:29,170 --> 00:44:31,170 it's the same thing
1169 00:44:31,170 --> 00:44:33,170 and you know
1170 00:44:33,170 --> 00:44:35,170 and so on.
1171 00:44:35,170 --> 00:44:37,170 So the social debt
1172 00:44:37,170 --> 00:44:39,170 makes the first
1173 00:44:39,170 --> 00:44:41,170 things that Chávez
1174 00:44:41,170 --> 00:44:43,170 does is
1175 00:44:43,170 --> 00:44:45,170 to pay
1176 00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:47,170 the social debt
1177 00:44:47,170 --> 00:44:49,170 and then there were
1178 00:44:49,170 --> 00:44:51,170 at least two instruments.
1179 00:44:51,170 --> 00:44:53,170 One is
1180 00:44:53,170 --> 00:44:55,170 that from the state
1181 00:44:55,170 --> 00:44:57,170 the state
1182 00:44:57,170 --> 00:44:59,170 and the oil money
1183 00:44:59,170 --> 00:45:01,170 the resources
1184 00:45:01,170 --> 00:45:03,170 from which it goes
1185 00:45:03,170 --> 00:45:05,170 to pay the social debt
1186 00:45:05,170 --> 00:45:07,170 and then there are different types
1187 00:45:07,170 --> 00:45:09,170 of misiones
1188 00:45:09,170 --> 00:45:11,170 of course education
1189 00:45:11,170 --> 00:45:13,170 different types
1190 00:45:13,170 --> 00:45:15,170 for misiones
1191 00:45:15,170 --> 00:45:17,170 but also for food
1192 00:45:17,170 --> 00:45:19,170 dining halls
1193 00:45:19,170 --> 00:45:21,170 and so on.
1194 00:45:21,170 --> 00:45:23,170 There is an enormous
1195 00:45:23,170 --> 00:45:25,170 community council
1196 00:45:25,170 --> 00:45:27,170 that is formed
1197 00:45:27,170 --> 00:45:29,170 so it was in the beginning
1198 00:45:29,170 --> 00:45:31,170 they are called different things
1199 00:45:31,170 --> 00:45:33,170 but in the beginning
1200 00:45:33,170 --> 00:45:35,170 it was a community council
1201 00:45:35,170 --> 00:45:37,170 so it could be for example
1202 00:45:37,170 --> 00:45:39,170 that you had problems
1203 00:45:39,170 --> 00:45:41,170 with the water
1204 00:45:41,170 --> 00:45:43,170 in a slum
1205 00:45:43,170 --> 00:45:45,170 and then you had a
1206 00:45:45,170 --> 00:45:47,170 water council
1207 00:45:47,170 --> 00:45:49,170 or it was
1208 00:45:49,170 --> 00:45:51,170 the land
1209 00:45:51,170 --> 00:45:53,170 or there were several
1210 00:45:53,170 --> 00:45:55,170 things that came
1211 00:45:55,170 --> 00:45:57,170 and then the whole movement
1212 00:45:57,170 --> 00:45:59,170 was reminded
1213 00:45:59,170 --> 00:46:01,170 in a law that came
1214 00:46:01,170 --> 00:46:03,170 in 2006
1215 00:46:03,170 --> 00:46:05,170 around the municipalities
1216 00:46:05,170 --> 00:46:07,170 it was there
1217 00:46:07,170 --> 00:46:09,170 that they made a law
1218 00:46:09,170 --> 00:46:11,170 that these different
1219 00:46:11,170 --> 00:46:13,170 municipal councils
1220 00:46:13,170 --> 00:46:15,170 and other movements
1221 00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:17,170 started to become
1222 00:46:17,170 --> 00:46:19,170 a legal unit
1223 00:46:19,170 --> 00:46:21,170 that they were recognized
1224 00:46:21,170 --> 00:46:23,170 but the practice came before
1225 00:46:23,170 --> 00:46:25,170 that they updated
1226 00:46:25,170 --> 00:46:27,170 the whole idea
1227 00:46:27,170 --> 00:46:29,170 about the municipality
1228 00:46:29,170 --> 00:46:31,170 and then it is very political
1229 00:46:31,170 --> 00:46:33,170 I remember that I met one of them
1230 00:46:33,170 --> 00:46:35,170 who worked with it
1231 00:46:35,170 --> 00:46:37,170 one of the great jurists
1232 00:46:37,170 --> 00:46:39,170 and he tells that
1233 00:46:39,170 --> 00:46:41,170 the inspiration came from
1234 00:46:41,170 --> 00:46:43,170 the Paris municipality
1235 00:46:43,170 --> 00:46:45,170 the idea was that the municipalities
1236 00:46:45,170 --> 00:46:47,170 that they should be
1237 00:46:47,170 --> 00:46:49,170 those who voted
1238 00:46:49,170 --> 00:46:51,170 voted
1239 00:46:51,170 --> 00:46:53,170 and then implemented
1240 00:46:53,170 --> 00:46:55,170 all the way
1241 00:46:55,170 --> 00:46:57,170 that they should not
1242 00:46:57,170 --> 00:46:59,170 vote for something
1243 00:46:59,170 --> 00:47:01,170 and let others do it
1244 00:47:01,170 --> 00:47:03,170 the idea was that they would
1245 00:47:03,170 --> 00:47:05,170 come up with the idea
1246 00:47:05,170 --> 00:47:07,170 that they would vote through it
1247 00:47:07,170 --> 00:47:09,170 but also that they would be
1248 00:47:09,170 --> 00:47:11,170 those who implemented the idea
1249 00:47:11,170 --> 00:47:13,170 all the way
1250 00:47:13,170 --> 00:47:15,170 like the Paris municipality
1251 00:47:15,170 --> 00:47:17,170 the idea came from there
1252 00:47:17,170 --> 00:47:19,170 mainly
1253 00:47:19,170 --> 00:47:21,170 and now you can correct me
1254 00:47:21,170 --> 00:47:23,170 if I'm wrong but I understand that what Chavez does is in practice by connecting to that movement that it is built
1255 00:47:23,170 --> 00:47:25,170 a form of parallel structure
1256 00:47:25,170 --> 00:47:27,170 that it is
1257 00:47:27,170 --> 00:47:29,170 you have healthcare
1258 00:47:29,170 --> 00:47:31,170 and then you have public health centers
1259 00:47:31,170 --> 00:47:33,170 public hospitals
1260 00:47:33,170 --> 00:47:35,170 and those municipalities are not just
1261 00:47:35,170 --> 00:47:37,170 advisory
1262 00:47:37,170 --> 00:47:39,170 but it is just as it says
1263 00:47:39,170 --> 00:47:41,170 that they have a power to perform
1264 00:47:41,170 --> 00:47:43,170 and will also
1265 00:47:43,170 --> 00:47:45,170 get a role later
1266 00:47:45,170 --> 00:47:47,170 when the sanctions start
1267 00:47:47,170 --> 00:47:49,170 to also try
1268 00:47:49,170 --> 00:47:51,170 to start a production
1269 00:47:51,170 --> 00:47:53,170 food production
1270 00:47:53,170 --> 00:47:55,170 so that it is a production
1271 00:47:55,170 --> 00:47:57,170 that happens below
1272 00:47:57,170 --> 00:47:59,170 that it is the way that
1273 00:47:59,170 --> 00:48:01,170 all of this
1274 00:48:01,170 --> 00:48:03,170 what to say
1275 00:48:03,170 --> 00:48:05,170 poor Venezuela
1276 00:48:05,170 --> 00:48:07,170 trying to get through
1277 00:48:07,170 --> 00:48:09,170 when the oil money
1278 00:48:09,170 --> 00:48:11,170 runs out
1279 00:48:11,170 --> 00:48:13,170 so to speak
1280 00:48:13,170 --> 00:48:15,170 to Venezuela
1281 00:48:15,170 --> 00:48:17,170 and
1282 00:48:17,170 --> 00:48:19,170 Chavez he dies
1283 00:48:19,170 --> 00:48:21,170 he gets cancer
1284 00:48:21,170 --> 00:48:23,170 and he goes away
1285 00:48:23,170 --> 00:48:25,170 what year is it
1286 00:48:25,170 --> 00:48:27,170 2013
1287 00:48:27,170 --> 00:48:29,170 2013 yes
1288 00:48:29,170 --> 00:48:31,170 so he goes away
1289 00:48:31,170 --> 00:48:33,170 and then the USA has also tried to do
1290 00:48:33,170 --> 00:48:35,170 coup attempt
1291 00:48:35,170 --> 00:48:37,170 against him
1292 00:48:37,170 --> 00:48:39,170 and get rid of him
1293 00:48:39,170 --> 00:48:41,170 from power
1294 00:48:41,170 --> 00:48:43,170 without succeeding
1295 00:48:43,170 --> 00:48:45,170 the first thing they do
1296 00:48:45,170 --> 00:48:47,170 when he wins the election
1297 00:48:47,170 --> 00:48:49,170 the first thing they do
1298 00:48:49,170 --> 00:48:51,170 the embassy comes with
1299 00:48:51,170 --> 00:48:53,170 a paper with the ministers
1300 00:48:53,170 --> 00:48:55,170 they considered
1301 00:48:55,170 --> 00:48:57,170 so to speak
1302 00:48:57,170 --> 00:48:59,170 good and should be included
1303 00:48:59,170 --> 00:49:01,170 in a government
1304 00:49:01,170 --> 00:49:03,170 and then Chavez said
1305 00:49:03,170 --> 00:49:05,170 I will not look at this paper
1306 00:49:05,170 --> 00:49:07,170 as it was before
1307 00:49:07,170 --> 00:49:09,170 and then came the
1308 00:49:09,170 --> 00:49:11,170 2002
1309 00:49:11,170 --> 00:49:13,170 as it was in three days
1310 00:49:13,170 --> 00:49:15,170 in two or three days
1311 00:49:15,170 --> 00:49:17,170 and then he came back again
1312 00:49:17,170 --> 00:49:19,170 and in 2003 they
1313 00:49:19,170 --> 00:49:21,170 made an oil blockade
1314 00:49:21,170 --> 00:49:23,170 simply that they shut down the entire oil production
1315 00:49:23,170 --> 00:49:25,170 in 2003
1316 00:49:25,170 --> 00:49:27,170 so basically every year
1317 00:49:27,170 --> 00:49:29,170 there was some conflict
1318 00:49:29,170 --> 00:49:31,170 I had actually
1319 00:49:31,170 --> 00:49:33,170 a friend
1320 00:49:33,170 --> 00:49:35,170 who is a documentary filmmaker
1321 00:49:35,170 --> 00:49:37,170 an italian
1322 00:49:37,170 --> 00:49:39,170 german documentary filmmaker
1323 00:49:39,170 --> 00:49:41,170 who was there
1324 00:49:41,170 --> 00:49:43,170 under the city cup
1325 00:49:43,170 --> 00:49:45,170 and stood with cameras
1326 00:49:45,170 --> 00:49:47,170 and filmed everything
1327 00:49:47,170 --> 00:49:49,170 and got really unique material
1328 00:49:49,170 --> 00:49:51,170 from inside
1329 00:49:51,170 --> 00:49:53,170 and then he made
1330 00:49:53,170 --> 00:49:55,170 a documentary
1331 00:49:55,170 --> 00:49:57,170 several of the right wing politicians
1332 00:49:57,170 --> 00:49:59,170 who are
1333 00:49:59,170 --> 00:50:01,170 who are
1334 00:50:01,170 --> 00:50:03,170 who are
1335 00:50:03,170 --> 00:50:05,170 who are
1336 00:50:05,170 --> 00:50:07,170 who are
1337 00:50:07,170 --> 00:50:09,170 who are
1338 00:50:09,170 --> 00:50:11,170 who are
1339 00:50:11,170 --> 00:50:13,170 who are
1340 00:50:13,170 --> 00:50:15,170 who are
1341 00:50:15,170 --> 00:50:17,170 who are
1342 00:50:17,170 --> 00:50:19,170 who are
1343 00:50:19,170 --> 00:50:21,170 who are
1344 00:50:21,170 --> 00:50:23,170 who are
1345 00:50:23,170 --> 00:50:25,170 who are
1346 00:50:25,170 --> 00:50:27,170 who are
1347 00:50:27,170 --> 00:50:29,170 who are
1348 00:50:29,170 --> 00:50:31,170 who are
1349 00:50:31,170 --> 00:50:33,170 who are
1350 00:50:33,170 --> 00:50:35,170 who are
1351 00:50:35,170 --> 00:50:37,170 who are
1352 00:50:37,170 --> 00:50:39,170 who are
1353 00:50:39,170 --> 00:50:41,170 who are
1354 00:50:41,170 --> 00:50:43,170 who are
1355 00:50:43,170 --> 00:50:45,170 who are
1356 00:50:45,170 --> 00:50:47,170 who are
1357 00:50:47,170 --> 00:50:49,170 who are
1358 00:50:49,170 --> 00:50:53,930 And of course they will react, so it would feel wrong not to do it.
1359 00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:57,930 And that's exactly what they do, they do it in many different ways.
1360 00:50:58,490 --> 00:51:05,290 It doesn't mean that everything that has been done and everything that happens is correct or right and everything.
1361 00:51:05,290 --> 00:51:12,050 There have been many big mistakes during the time, things that I don't like at all.
1362 00:51:12,050 --> 00:51:27,230 But I have to say that most of what has happened politically in Venezuela is a confrontation of power between those who had power before and those who took power afterwards, with Chavism.
1363 00:51:27,230 --> 00:51:48,560 And when Chavez dies and Nicolás Maduro takes over, Chavez has explained that he wants to have him as a successor as well.
1364 00:51:48,560 --> 00:51:48,660 Yes.
1365 00:51:50,020 --> 00:52:02,960 In life, what is it, 2014, 2013, 2014, he takes over, then the big sanctions against Venezuela start to come one after another.
1366 00:52:02,960 --> 00:52:15,580 And we also get Trump as president in the USA and who goes in extra hard in that, with the sanctions against Maduro.
1367 00:52:16,720 --> 00:52:19,520 So then we get the years there.
1368 00:52:19,520 --> 00:52:19,580 Yes.
1369 00:52:20,020 --> 00:52:32,040 In 2017 and forward, there are very difficult years in Venezuela when it comes to, there are many people who run away, who run, who flee.
1370 00:52:33,180 --> 00:52:41,120 And in general, they do it about from the economic crisis in 2018, when it hit completely.
1371 00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:46,220 Before that, there are political, enormous political confrontations.
1372 00:52:46,220 --> 00:52:49,500 Because actually, it's like they're counting.
1373 00:52:50,020 --> 00:52:58,280 Chavez had a unique leadership, which also made it difficult for others to come forward.
1374 00:52:58,540 --> 00:52:59,620 He stood everywhere.
1375 00:53:00,360 --> 00:53:06,380 I would also say that there was a dangerous person cult as well, which wasn't so good.
1376 00:53:06,900 --> 00:53:14,360 But then when Maduro comes, then you're standing there without the big leader, and then you have to find other forms,
1377 00:53:14,440 --> 00:53:17,720 which makes the political leadership much more collective.
1378 00:53:18,140 --> 00:53:19,820 And then you have several...
1379 00:53:19,820 --> 00:53:28,240 The funny thing here is that now, at least the Swedish media and others, when you read them,
1380 00:53:28,540 --> 00:53:32,500 have discovered that there was a much more collective leadership.
1381 00:53:32,980 --> 00:53:36,180 And it's good that they thought it was for many years.
1382 00:53:36,360 --> 00:53:38,380 And that has to do with propaganda in the USA.
1383 00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:40,220 Because they didn't know.
1384 00:53:40,740 --> 00:53:43,920 So they've always had it as the young Maduro.
1385 00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,240 Dictator Maduro, blah, blah, blah, and so on.
1386 00:53:46,240 --> 00:53:47,240 So you have to point at them.
1387 00:53:47,700 --> 00:53:49,240 But the others who...
1388 00:53:49,820 --> 00:53:54,080 Who know a little more history and have contacts with Venezuela and others.
1389 00:53:54,620 --> 00:53:57,380 And I don't mean just people from the left, but also from the right.
1390 00:53:58,140 --> 00:54:03,920 We knew, for example, that this collective leadership after Chavez was there.
1391 00:54:04,340 --> 00:54:06,980 So Siscón Rodríguez, who you...
1392 00:54:06,980 --> 00:54:08,640 Now you start talking about Siscón Rodríguez.
1393 00:54:08,720 --> 00:54:13,780 Now you start talking about Gustavo Cabello and Padrino López and so on.
1394 00:54:13,780 --> 00:54:17,780 We've always known that there are several different...
1395 00:54:18,500 --> 00:54:18,780 So you...
1396 00:54:18,780 --> 00:54:19,780 When Chavez...
1397 00:54:19,820 --> 00:54:22,080 When Chavez dies, it's Maduro who takes over.
1398 00:54:22,380 --> 00:54:24,440 But he doesn't have the capacity.
1399 00:54:24,800 --> 00:54:27,140 He doesn't have the leadership like Chavez had.
1400 00:54:27,360 --> 00:54:29,800 Which makes the power lie on several.
1401 00:54:30,240 --> 00:54:30,920 In different ways.
1402 00:54:31,580 --> 00:54:33,660 And they don't mean that it's good or bad.
1403 00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:35,360 I just say that it was so.
1404 00:54:35,620 --> 00:54:36,040 Quite simply.
1405 00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:37,740 And you could...
1406 00:54:37,740 --> 00:54:39,620 Now they've discovered that it was so.
1407 00:54:40,220 --> 00:54:43,280 In the past, it was only one-vote rulers.
1408 00:54:43,660 --> 00:54:45,280 Maduro, the dictator, and so on.
1409 00:54:45,280 --> 00:54:49,280 So they didn't understand that the power was on several different...
1410 00:54:49,820 --> 00:54:50,600 Groups, I would say.
1411 00:54:51,260 --> 00:55:00,460 It's not all oil companies that have drawn or lost production in Venezuela either.
1412 00:55:00,460 --> 00:55:08,460 If you have Exxon Mobil, Exxon threw itself out or lost its oil production.
1413 00:55:09,280 --> 00:55:11,800 But then you have Chevron, which is still there.
1414 00:55:12,120 --> 00:55:17,460 And during this economic crisis in 2008 and the years to come...
1415 00:55:17,980 --> 00:55:19,780 It's a global dip.
1416 00:55:19,820 --> 00:55:20,600 In the economy.
1417 00:55:20,940 --> 00:55:23,420 But Venezuela didn't manage to get out of it.
1418 00:55:23,500 --> 00:55:25,380 And that also builds a lot on...
1419 00:55:25,380 --> 00:55:30,140 That both Canada and the US develop their oil production a lot.
1420 00:55:30,140 --> 00:55:35,760 That today the US, from being an oil-importing country, is one of the...
1421 00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:40,860 It's the largest oil exporter, the oil producer in the whole world.
1422 00:55:41,320 --> 00:55:49,140 And the supply line of oil, the pipelines of raw oil that came from Venezuela up to...
1423 00:55:49,820 --> 00:55:52,140 The American coast.
1424 00:55:52,840 --> 00:55:55,680 That pipeline went from south to north.
1425 00:55:55,680 --> 00:55:58,720 It almost changed direction.
1426 00:55:59,100 --> 00:56:03,300 Instead, they took oil from raw oil.
1427 00:56:03,940 --> 00:56:07,980 Which was very similar to the Venezuelan oil from Canada instead.
1428 00:56:08,260 --> 00:56:10,460 Until the US fracking started.
1429 00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:15,540 And they started to get their own oil production going.
1430 00:56:15,940 --> 00:56:17,680 So it's also...
1431 00:56:18,940 --> 00:56:19,160 Discussions...
1432 00:56:19,160 --> 00:56:19,260 Discussions...
1433 00:56:19,260 --> 00:56:19,340 Discussions...
1434 00:56:19,340 --> 00:56:19,640 Discussions...
1435 00:56:19,640 --> 00:56:19,660 Discussions...
1436 00:56:19,660 --> 00:56:19,760 Discussions...
1437 00:56:19,760 --> 00:56:19,800 Discussions...
1438 00:56:19,820 --> 00:56:20,160 Discussions...
1439 00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:23,480 It's all about oil when it comes to Venezuela.
1440 00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:24,420 It's also...
1441 00:56:24,420 --> 00:56:27,420 Now there are significantly more...
1442 00:56:27,420 --> 00:56:33,800 Different actors in the oil industry that are not at all interested in...
1443 00:56:33,800 --> 00:56:37,180 That there will suddenly be a large influx of oil.
1444 00:56:37,900 --> 00:56:41,820 This will be a problem for...
1445 00:56:42,420 --> 00:56:46,940 The US will have control over Venezuela's oil production problem for Canada.
1446 00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:49,660 It will be a problem for the domestic market.
1447 00:56:49,660 --> 00:56:55,660 oil companies. It's not them who have demanded Trump to do this.
1448 00:56:56,400 --> 00:57:04,860 In 2006, Chavez made a reform when it came to control and production of oil, which made
1449 00:57:04,860 --> 00:57:09,920 that the Dutch oil companies, if they wanted to continue to produce, they would go into
1450 00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:19,460 a joint venture with PDVSA, the Venezuelan oil company. And then both ExxonMobil and
1451 00:57:19,460 --> 00:57:27,400 ConocoPhillips, the big ones, they withdraw. And Chevron has always been left. They withdraw
1452 00:57:27,400 --> 00:57:32,660 because they don't want to. They have been kings in Venezuela for a long time. And now
1453 00:57:32,660 --> 00:57:39,400 they have to start paying to be able to earn all this money that they had. And they can't
1454 00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:44,700 do that anymore. So it's actually important to say that the confrontation was also there.
1455 00:57:45,200 --> 00:57:49,360 So, up to what's happening now with...
1456 00:57:49,460 --> 00:57:58,820 USA's kidnapping of Maduro. And then you can say that both during the first Trump period
1457 00:57:58,820 --> 00:58:06,820 and under Biden, and now under the second Trump period, the tone has always been sharpened
1458 00:58:06,820 --> 00:58:17,120 against Maduro. Maduro has not been accepted as a right-wing president, that he has cupped
1459 00:58:17,120 --> 00:58:19,440 the election and that there has been a price on his head.
1460 00:58:19,460 --> 00:58:29,460 So, he has somehow become a symbol that the USA has mobilized around to get rid of. But why is this happening now? And why has the U.S.
1461 00:58:29,460 --> 00:58:49,440 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is this happening now? And why has the U.S.
1462 00:58:49,460 --> 00:58:50,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1463 00:58:50,460 --> 00:58:51,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1464 00:58:51,460 --> 00:58:52,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1465 00:58:52,460 --> 00:58:53,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1466 00:58:53,460 --> 00:58:54,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1467 00:58:54,460 --> 00:58:55,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1468 00:58:55,460 --> 00:58:56,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1469 00:58:56,460 --> 00:58:57,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1470 00:58:57,460 --> 00:58:58,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1471 00:58:58,460 --> 00:58:59,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1472 00:58:59,460 --> 00:59:00,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1473 00:59:00,460 --> 00:59:01,460 mobilized around to get rid of? But why is the U.S.
1474 00:59:01,460 --> 00:59:04,460 It was the only alternative for the United States to overthrow Amador.
1475 00:59:04,460 --> 00:59:07,460 It was the only one that remained, so to speak.
1476 00:59:07,460 --> 00:59:12,460 They tried already in 2013 with a wave of protests.
1477 00:59:12,460 --> 00:59:15,460 They also tried in 2017 with a wave of protests.
1478 00:59:15,460 --> 00:59:20,460 And then in 2018 and 2019 there was also a wave of protests.
1479 00:59:20,460 --> 00:59:26,460 Together with a, I would say, incomprehensible international political and diplomatic blockade.
1480 00:59:26,460 --> 00:59:30,460 A parallel government was established with Juan Guaidó,
1481 00:59:30,460 --> 00:59:34,460 which was recognized by the Western world.
1482 00:59:34,460 --> 00:59:37,460 Even in Sweden, Juan Guaidó was recognized.
1483 00:59:37,460 --> 00:59:40,460 And then sanctions were imposed.
1484 00:59:40,460 --> 00:59:44,460 More than 1,000 sanctions were imposed against Venezuela.
1485 00:59:44,460 --> 00:59:51,460 Their assets that existed abroad were frozen and confiscated, quite simply.
1486 00:59:51,460 --> 00:59:55,460 And then in 2017 they imposed
1487 00:59:55,460 --> 00:59:57,460 a financial and economic sanction.
1488 00:59:57,460 --> 01:00:01,460 And then an oil blockade already in 2019.
1489 01:00:01,460 --> 01:00:04,460 You have tried many different things.
1490 01:00:04,460 --> 01:00:09,460 I mean, we in Sweden had not survived, not even with the first wave of protests, quite simply.
1491 01:00:09,460 --> 01:00:12,460 But you could not test power.
1492 01:00:12,460 --> 01:00:15,460 And I don't mean overthrowing Amador, I mean Chavism.
1493 01:00:15,460 --> 01:00:18,460 You could not overthrow them, quite simply.
1494 01:00:18,460 --> 01:00:21,460 And establish your own regime.
1495 01:00:21,460 --> 01:00:24,460 So this military intervention
1496 01:00:24,460 --> 01:00:28,460 was the last card you had, quite simply.
1497 01:00:28,460 --> 01:00:35,460 But many, they still have, both Trump and Biden have supported the opposition there.
1498 01:00:35,460 --> 01:00:43,460 And now, when Norway gave peace prizes to Maria Corina Machada,
1499 01:00:43,460 --> 01:00:49,460 so everyone expected that the USA would try to push her forward.
1500 01:00:49,460 --> 01:00:52,460 But Trump has not done that.
1501 01:00:52,460 --> 01:00:55,460 It comes from the White House instead,
1502 01:00:55,460 --> 01:00:58,460 that it has not been really confirmed,
1503 01:00:58,460 --> 01:01:01,460 but they have been pointing out all the time
1504 01:01:01,460 --> 01:01:06,460 that there is a negotiation with the circle around Maduro,
1505 01:01:06,460 --> 01:01:08,460 around Rodríguez,
1506 01:01:08,460 --> 01:01:13,460 where Maduro was sacrificed, so to speak,
1507 01:01:13,460 --> 01:01:17,460 or he was forced to be moved.
1508 01:01:17,460 --> 01:01:21,460 Already in the negotiations before this, Maduro tried to open up,
1509 01:01:21,460 --> 01:01:25,460 let the American oil companies come in again,
1510 01:01:25,460 --> 01:01:28,460 but he was forced to disappear.
1511 01:01:28,460 --> 01:01:31,460 So what do you think about that?
1512 01:01:31,460 --> 01:01:39,460 Is this Trump letting the Chavez regime stay, so to speak,
1513 01:01:39,460 --> 01:01:44,460 but should be threatened with silence,
1514 01:01:44,460 --> 01:01:46,460 threatened with military interventions,
1515 01:01:46,460 --> 01:01:47,460 bombings,
1516 01:01:47,460 --> 01:01:50,460 cuts of the shadow fleet,
1517 01:01:50,460 --> 01:01:57,460 and that you are not interested in a regime change?
1518 01:01:57,460 --> 01:01:59,460 There are several different things.
1519 01:01:59,460 --> 01:02:02,460 I think there are several different things.
1520 01:02:02,460 --> 01:02:04,460 But the first thing I would like to say,
1521 01:02:04,460 --> 01:02:05,460 which is important,
1522 01:02:05,460 --> 01:02:08,460 is that a lot of what comes out in the media,
1523 01:02:08,460 --> 01:02:09,460 speculations,
1524 01:02:09,460 --> 01:02:12,460 whether it is someone who was a traitor,
1525 01:02:12,460 --> 01:02:14,460 who betrayed Maduro,
1526 01:02:14,460 --> 01:02:16,460 who left Maduro to Trump,
1527 01:02:16,460 --> 01:02:18,460 among other things,
1528 01:02:18,460 --> 01:02:23,460 and then that he had held negotiations behind his back,
1529 01:02:23,460 --> 01:02:26,460 not only with Maduro, but with the country in general,
1530 01:02:26,460 --> 01:02:30,460 all of that is a lot of war propaganda.
1531 01:02:30,460 --> 01:02:32,460 It has a lot to do with the fact that
1532 01:02:32,460 --> 01:02:36,460 you want to weaken Chavism in Venezuela.
1533 01:02:36,460 --> 01:02:40,460 You want to split Chavism and say,
1534 01:02:40,460 --> 01:02:42,460 here is someone who is a traitor,
1535 01:02:42,460 --> 01:02:45,460 and we have to look for the traitor,
1536 01:02:45,460 --> 01:02:47,460 and there is someone who has come to power,
1537 01:02:47,460 --> 01:02:49,460 at least in the case of Elsie Rodríguez,
1538 01:02:49,460 --> 01:02:51,460 because she has negotiated with the USA,
1539 01:02:51,460 --> 01:02:54,460 behind the back of Maduro, you know, and so on.
1540 01:02:54,460 --> 01:02:56,460 I am not so sure that it is so,
1541 01:02:56,460 --> 01:02:57,460 but I never know.
1542 01:02:57,460 --> 01:03:00,460 But one thing that is important in this context,
1543 01:03:00,460 --> 01:03:03,460 that you asked why right now.
1544 01:03:03,460 --> 01:03:05,460 I think it has to do with the fact that
1545 01:03:05,460 --> 01:03:07,460 the last crisis for the country,
1546 01:03:07,460 --> 01:03:09,460 that is, the economic crisis,
1547 01:03:09,460 --> 01:03:11,460 where it was the worst,
1548 01:03:11,460 --> 01:03:14,460 was in 2019, 2020.
1549 01:03:14,460 --> 01:03:17,460 After that, the country has started
1550 01:03:17,460 --> 01:03:19,460 to recover, the country's economy
1551 01:03:19,460 --> 01:03:22,460 has started to recover in several different ways.
1552 01:03:22,460 --> 01:03:25,460 The first is that you carry out,
1553 01:03:25,460 --> 01:03:30,460 I would say, a rather difficult economic package
1554 01:03:30,460 --> 01:03:32,460 that you carry out.
1555 01:03:32,460 --> 01:03:34,460 Because it is the case that you have had
1556 01:03:34,460 --> 01:03:37,460 an enormous political crisis in many different ways,
1557 01:03:37,460 --> 01:03:39,460 where you actually commit a whole lot of crimes
1558 01:03:39,460 --> 01:03:41,460 against human rights,
1559 01:03:41,460 --> 01:03:43,460 you imprison people and so on.
1560 01:03:43,460 --> 01:03:46,460 And you do that during this political confrontation.
1561 01:03:46,460 --> 01:03:49,460 You do that now in 2019,
1562 01:03:49,460 --> 01:03:51,460 in 2018, 2019.
1563 01:03:51,460 --> 01:03:54,460 But then, when you conquer
1564 01:03:54,460 --> 01:03:56,460 what you call the golpism,
1565 01:03:56,460 --> 01:03:58,460 that is, the coup d'etats,
1566 01:03:58,460 --> 01:04:02,460 and you are quite confident in power,
1567 01:04:02,460 --> 01:04:05,460 you carry out an economic reform
1568 01:04:05,460 --> 01:04:07,460 called DUGA,
1569 01:04:07,460 --> 01:04:09,460 which I do not know if other countries in the United States
1570 01:04:09,460 --> 01:04:11,460 could afford.
1571 01:04:11,460 --> 01:04:13,460 What they do is several things.
1572 01:04:13,460 --> 01:04:16,460 They know that they are economically blocked,
1573 01:04:16,460 --> 01:04:18,460 and then they do so that they,
1574 01:04:18,460 --> 01:04:20,460 Maduro and the political power,
1575 01:04:20,460 --> 01:04:22,460 they compromise with the business life
1576 01:04:22,460 --> 01:04:25,460 and say that we are completely blocked
1577 01:04:25,460 --> 01:04:26,460 as a state.
1578 01:04:26,460 --> 01:04:28,460 We cannot do much business because
1579 01:04:28,460 --> 01:04:30,460 we cannot even,
1580 01:04:30,460 --> 01:04:32,460 we cannot even pay.
1581 01:04:32,460 --> 01:04:34,460 It was a financial blockade,
1582 01:04:34,460 --> 01:04:37,460 so that they could not even pay out the money.
1583 01:04:37,460 --> 01:04:39,460 Those who will be able to do business,
1584 01:04:39,460 --> 01:04:41,460 that is you, the private business life.
1585 01:04:41,460 --> 01:04:43,460 And that's what you do.
1586 01:04:43,460 --> 01:04:45,460 You start to support the business life.
1587 01:04:45,460 --> 01:04:49,460 The other is that you let go of the dollar control.
1588 01:04:49,460 --> 01:04:52,460 That is, you let the dollar fly in,
1589 01:04:52,460 --> 01:04:55,460 that is, get into the economy without a problem.
1590 01:04:55,460 --> 01:04:57,460 So you started paying in dollars,
1591 01:04:57,460 --> 01:04:58,460 if you will.
1592 01:04:58,460 --> 01:05:01,460 They said that the economy had become dollarized.
1593 01:05:01,460 --> 01:05:03,460 So they took away all restrictions
1594 01:05:03,460 --> 01:05:05,460 when it comes to dollar assets
1595 01:05:05,460 --> 01:05:07,460 and that you pay too.
1596 01:05:07,460 --> 01:05:10,460 The third is that you take away the subsidies,
1597 01:05:10,460 --> 01:05:13,460 because you had subsidies on the market
1598 01:05:13,460 --> 01:05:15,460 that made people,
1599 01:05:15,460 --> 01:05:17,460 the big business life businesses,
1600 01:05:17,460 --> 01:05:19,460 both state and private,
1601 01:05:19,460 --> 01:05:21,460 that they bought in subsidized food
1602 01:05:21,460 --> 01:05:23,460 that they then sold on the black market
1603 01:05:23,460 --> 01:05:25,460 because they got a lot more money on it.
1604 01:05:25,460 --> 01:05:27,460 And it became that the business life businesses
1605 01:05:27,460 --> 01:05:29,460 were quite empty,
1606 01:05:29,460 --> 01:05:31,460 the shelves were quite empty.
1607 01:05:31,460 --> 01:05:33,460 There was no food,
1608 01:05:33,460 --> 01:05:35,460 because everything was sold out there.
1609 01:05:35,460 --> 01:05:37,460 So it was the same people who had bought in
1610 01:05:37,460 --> 01:05:39,460 from the state the subsidized food
1611 01:05:39,460 --> 01:05:41,460 that then sold it on the black market.
1612 01:05:41,460 --> 01:05:43,460 And what they did was that they took away
1613 01:05:43,460 --> 01:05:45,460 almost all the subsidies,
1614 01:05:45,460 --> 01:05:47,460 all the subsidies they took away on food,
1615 01:05:47,460 --> 01:05:49,460 which made it so that suddenly
1616 01:05:49,460 --> 01:05:51,460 there was a lot of food
1617 01:05:51,460 --> 01:05:53,460 in the business businesses.
1618 01:05:53,460 --> 01:05:55,460 Everything was there, everything you wanted.
1619 01:05:55,460 --> 01:05:57,460 And even imports that the private could import.
1620 01:05:57,460 --> 01:05:59,460 So then they said,
1621 01:05:59,460 --> 01:06:01,460 they said,
1622 01:06:01,460 --> 01:06:03,460 you hate the USA,
1623 01:06:03,460 --> 01:06:05,460 but you buy food from the USA.
1624 01:06:05,460 --> 01:06:07,460 But it was the private,
1625 01:06:07,460 --> 01:06:09,460 the private capital that had,
1626 01:06:09,460 --> 01:06:11,460 that had free assets to be able to buy in.
1627 01:06:11,460 --> 01:06:13,460 Yes, and a fourth thing,
1628 01:06:13,460 --> 01:06:15,460 which is important to say here,
1629 01:06:15,460 --> 01:06:17,460 was also that the state had
1630 01:06:17,460 --> 01:06:19,460 employed a lot,
1631 01:06:19,460 --> 01:06:21,460 a lot, a lot of people.
1632 01:06:21,460 --> 01:06:23,460 To healthcare, to schools,
1633 01:06:23,460 --> 01:06:25,460 to the administration,
1634 01:06:25,460 --> 01:06:27,460 a lot of bureaucracy,
1635 01:06:27,460 --> 01:06:29,460 blah, blah, blah, you know, and so on.
1636 01:06:29,460 --> 01:06:31,460 And you paid a lot of money,
1637 01:06:31,460 --> 01:06:33,460 and you paid with the money from oil.
1638 01:06:33,460 --> 01:06:35,460 And that also made the inflation increase
1639 01:06:35,460 --> 01:06:37,460 many, many thousands, you know.
1640 01:06:37,460 --> 01:06:39,460 They went with backpacks,
1641 01:06:39,460 --> 01:06:41,460 I went with a backpack,
1642 01:06:41,460 --> 01:06:43,460 they put on something.
1643 01:06:43,460 --> 01:06:45,460 And what it does is that you also say
1644 01:06:45,460 --> 01:06:47,460 that now we should not
1645 01:06:47,460 --> 01:06:49,460 continue to increase wages,
1646 01:06:49,460 --> 01:06:51,460 but they will go in parallel
1647 01:06:51,460 --> 01:06:53,460 with the production.
1648 01:06:53,460 --> 01:06:55,460 So how much more we produce,
1649 01:06:55,460 --> 01:06:57,460 the wages will increase.
1650 01:06:57,460 --> 01:06:59,460 Which made that since the production was
1651 01:06:59,460 --> 01:07:01,460 quite low,
1652 01:07:01,460 --> 01:07:03,460 there was almost nothing.
1653 01:07:03,460 --> 01:07:05,460 Suddenly the would decrease,
1654 01:07:05,460 --> 01:07:07,460 supply, you stopped pushing seats,
1655 01:07:07,460 --> 01:07:09,460 inflation started to drop.
1656 01:07:09,460 --> 01:07:11,460 There was food out there,
1657 01:07:11,460 --> 01:07:16,200 and in the municipalities and so on, the public, the salary was no longer enough for anything.
1658 01:07:17,140 --> 01:07:22,200 But there was food in the business affairs, and what you do for the state is, for example,
1659 01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:29,120 I have several friends who teach at the university, and what they did was that they taught for two days
1660 01:07:29,120 --> 01:07:34,120 a week at the university, and continued to teach, but they had three days that they had to do
1661 01:07:34,120 --> 01:07:39,580 what they wanted, i.e. work for free. And then they drove Yumi, which is like Uber,
1662 01:07:39,720 --> 01:07:46,180 i.e. Uber cars and taxis, or they started a café, so they did quite a lot, and that made it
1663 01:07:46,180 --> 01:07:53,440 start to bloom, that people started to work. So the economy started in 2021 to start to grow a lot,
1664 01:07:53,820 --> 01:07:59,500 and then you got an order on oil production as well. Now, for example, before the attack,
1665 01:07:59,940 --> 01:08:04,100 you had started to produce about a million barrels.
1666 01:08:04,120 --> 01:08:09,880 per day of oil, which is not the highest they've done, but it's pretty good.
1667 01:08:10,240 --> 01:08:17,240 87% of the oil goes to China, and then it goes to Turkey as well, and a small part to
1668 01:08:17,240 --> 01:08:21,979 Brazil, among other things. And before that, it also went to India, but then it blocked
1669 01:08:21,979 --> 01:08:27,479 the USA, so that India couldn't buy it. And a small part also goes to the USA via Chevron,
1670 01:08:27,479 --> 01:08:33,800 also about 200,000 barrels per day. So they got, and the inflation,
1671 01:08:34,120 --> 01:08:41,120 it went down, so they got an order on the economy, i.e. macroeconomically. The problem has been
1672 01:08:41,120 --> 01:08:49,100 that poverty, among other things, especially among public employees, increased a lot.
1673 01:08:49,899 --> 01:08:55,420 And there was also a gap, i.e. a gap between those who work privately, who get paid many times
1674 01:08:55,420 --> 01:09:01,540 in dollars, and then the state employees who get paid in bolivar and very little money.
1675 01:09:01,540 --> 01:09:04,100 And what they did so that the inflation wouldn't,
1676 01:09:04,120 --> 01:09:08,460 increase, even though they understood that some of the money, the wages they got were
1677 01:09:08,460 --> 01:09:13,660 bad, some state employees, public employees, and that they started paying what they call
1678 01:09:13,660 --> 01:09:19,300 a bonus, i.e. a bonus, just so that you can understand how it works. You get, in
1679 01:09:19,300 --> 01:09:25,180 salary, for example, you get about 10 dollars or something like that per month. But then
1680 01:09:25,180 --> 01:09:30,880 you get, in addition to that, you get a bonus of 100 dollars for what they call a war bonus,
1681 01:09:30,880 --> 01:09:34,100 i.e. against the blockade. And then you also get a food bonus.
1682 01:09:34,120 --> 01:09:38,640 We get, i.e. it's money too, but it's not a salary, but it's a bonus that you get,
1683 01:09:38,880 --> 01:09:45,040 about 40-50 dollars. So in total, with all the different bonuses, maybe a state employee
1684 01:09:45,040 --> 01:09:51,660 got over 200 dollars that he could survive with. But the salary is quite, very, very low.
1685 01:09:51,979 --> 01:09:56,140 So that's how you've worked with this economic crisis that you had.
1686 01:09:56,720 --> 01:10:03,840 And then there was also that with that many, during about 2017, 18, 19, 20, 21,
1687 01:10:04,120 --> 01:10:09,880 there were many who migrated. The most, we talk about millions, the most migrated
1688 01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:15,760 not because of political reasons, they migrated for economic reasons. One could say
1689 01:10:15,760 --> 01:10:20,620 politically, but I mean it was not politically encouraged it was primarily because of
1690 01:10:20,620 --> 01:10:24,860 economy. They also began sending money, just like any other Ali Kamekane,
1691 01:10:24,860 --> 01:10:30,120 remittances to the country. That also became an income for the state. One spoke of,
1692 01:10:30,120 --> 01:10:33,780 you know, a for- gemeins. Where not a state but for the state. You sending it to
1693 01:10:33,780 --> 01:10:35,460 to the family director. They said that
1694 01:10:35,460 --> 01:10:38,160 it came in between 3 and 4
1695 01:10:38,160 --> 01:10:40,140 billion dollars per year
1696 01:10:40,140 --> 01:10:41,520 when it came to remittances.
1697 01:10:42,100 --> 01:10:43,760 So for the rest of the time, they got order
1698 01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:46,380 on the economy. And now, of course,
1699 01:10:46,500 --> 01:10:47,680 the oil production
1700 01:10:47,680 --> 01:10:49,140 has worked and the export as well.
1701 01:10:49,460 --> 01:10:51,300 And that's why the USA is going in.
1702 01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:53,060 If they hadn't gone in now,
1703 01:10:53,660 --> 01:10:55,460 it would have been too late. Because the Chinese
1704 01:10:55,460 --> 01:10:58,100 would have returned to Venezuela
1705 01:10:58,100 --> 01:10:58,780 for oil.
1706 01:10:59,240 --> 01:11:01,480 The USA has gone out. Trump says
1707 01:11:01,480 --> 01:11:03,760 that this is the Monroe Doctrine's
1708 01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:05,120 retelling.
1709 01:11:05,620 --> 01:11:06,860 Or he calls it
1710 01:11:06,860 --> 01:11:08,940 the Monroe Doctrine.
1711 01:11:09,420 --> 01:11:11,260 And he has gone out and
1712 01:11:11,260 --> 01:11:13,320 clarified, or he and
1713 01:11:13,320 --> 01:11:14,760 Marco Rubio and
1714 01:11:14,760 --> 01:11:17,400 the Secretary of State. From now on,
1715 01:11:17,500 --> 01:11:19,320 the USA
1716 01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,520 is the hegemon in the Western Hemisphere.
1717 01:11:21,980 --> 01:11:23,360 That this is their region.
1718 01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:25,540 And they are not going to tolerate
1719 01:11:25,540 --> 01:11:27,980 that trade or
1720 01:11:27,980 --> 01:11:29,600 other interest
1721 01:11:29,600 --> 01:11:31,360 spheres occur. China can stay in its
1722 01:11:31,360 --> 01:11:33,380 interest sphere. Russia can stay
1723 01:11:33,380 --> 01:11:33,720 in
1724 01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:35,760 its interest sphere. They are not going to
1725 01:11:35,760 --> 01:11:37,820 get into the American
1726 01:11:37,820 --> 01:11:38,960 interest sphere.
1727 01:11:39,400 --> 01:11:42,020 Then China is Latin America's
1728 01:11:42,020 --> 01:11:43,600 biggest trade partner
1729 01:11:43,600 --> 01:11:43,960 today.
1730 01:11:45,160 --> 01:11:47,400 It seems like what
1731 01:11:47,400 --> 01:11:49,440 the USA wants to do
1732 01:11:49,440 --> 01:11:51,400 now is, in different ways, to
1733 01:11:51,400 --> 01:11:53,440 try to stop,
1734 01:11:53,660 --> 01:11:55,420 drive out the trade with
1735 01:11:55,420 --> 01:11:57,420 China from which can
1736 01:11:57,420 --> 01:11:58,980 use the Panama Canal,
1737 01:11:59,500 --> 01:12:01,600 which can access Venezuela's
1738 01:12:02,120 --> 01:12:03,340 oil. You have
1739 01:12:03,340 --> 01:12:04,880 pumped in
1740 01:12:04,880 --> 01:12:07,040 loan contributions to
1741 01:12:07,040 --> 01:12:08,960 Chile, Argentina,
1742 01:12:09,180 --> 01:12:11,180 to be able to
1743 01:12:11,180 --> 01:12:12,960 continue to win
1744 01:12:12,960 --> 01:12:15,180 the election where you have gone in and
1745 01:12:15,180 --> 01:12:16,400 supported Honduras.
1746 01:12:16,720 --> 01:12:18,900 It is, it is connected.
1747 01:12:19,820 --> 01:12:21,340 The first wave with
1748 01:12:21,340 --> 01:12:23,080 trade bids, trade
1749 01:12:23,080 --> 01:12:25,460 war. And now you go in
1750 01:12:25,460 --> 01:12:27,140 and the trade war has passed
1751 01:12:27,140 --> 01:12:28,680 in this form of
1752 01:12:28,680 --> 01:12:30,840 war or
1753 01:12:30,840 --> 01:12:33,300 bomb diplomacy, where you
1754 01:12:33,300 --> 01:12:34,920 threaten
1755 01:12:34,920 --> 01:12:37,360 with both
1756 01:12:37,360 --> 01:12:38,720 sanctions and
1757 01:12:38,720 --> 01:12:40,980 repression and
1758 01:12:40,980 --> 01:12:43,340 attacks to get
1759 01:12:43,340 --> 01:12:44,740 through your will.
1760 01:12:45,360 --> 01:12:47,120 But the question is
1761 01:12:47,120 --> 01:12:49,280 if you then let
1762 01:12:49,280 --> 01:12:51,100 the regime that
1763 01:12:51,100 --> 01:12:52,300 is in Venezuela
1764 01:12:52,300 --> 01:12:54,820 exist. The question is
1765 01:12:54,820 --> 01:12:55,680 also the whole
1766 01:12:55,680 --> 01:12:58,640 community movement, people's
1767 01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:00,180 militia, people's defense,
1768 01:13:00,820 --> 01:13:02,840 people's organization that exists.
1769 01:13:03,300 --> 01:13:05,660 In Venezuela, the chavism
1770 01:13:05,660 --> 01:13:07,560 that has survived, that it
1771 01:13:07,560 --> 01:13:09,380 is both Trump's
1772 01:13:09,380 --> 01:13:11,000 what you should say,
1773 01:13:11,220 --> 01:13:13,040 the stomach movement, he comes
1774 01:13:13,040 --> 01:13:15,200 against, dislikes very much
1775 01:13:15,200 --> 01:13:17,080 to carry out the regime
1776 01:13:17,080 --> 01:13:19,120 shift and bind up in different
1777 01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:21,200 countries like in Iraq,
1778 01:13:21,320 --> 01:13:23,020 Afghanistan, that they should stand
1779 01:13:23,020 --> 01:13:24,900 and try to set up a new order,
1780 01:13:25,060 --> 01:13:26,740 a new regime, but they have nothing
1781 01:13:26,740 --> 01:13:28,680 against the interventions that can
1782 01:13:28,680 --> 01:13:31,040 bomb Iran, kidnap
1783 01:13:31,040 --> 01:13:32,660 a president or,
1784 01:13:32,660 --> 01:13:34,520 show, like, action
1785 01:13:34,520 --> 01:13:36,280 strength and strength in that way,
1786 01:13:36,420 --> 01:13:38,300 as long as you don't bind up and
1787 01:13:38,300 --> 01:13:40,640 stay there. So, what do
1788 01:13:40,640 --> 01:13:43,100 you think about the future
1789 01:13:43,100 --> 01:13:44,500 of the region and, like, Venezuela's
1790 01:13:44,500 --> 01:13:44,980 future?
1791 01:13:45,420 --> 01:13:47,580 Yes, so, what you should
1792 01:13:47,580 --> 01:13:49,380 say is that
1793 01:13:49,380 --> 01:13:51,420 the Monroe Doctrine
1794 01:13:51,420 --> 01:13:52,920 is a doctrine from
1795 01:13:52,920 --> 01:13:54,880 1823. It was the
1796 01:13:54,880 --> 01:13:56,800 struggle between the USA, which
1797 01:13:56,800 --> 01:13:58,880 was growing forward as a
1798 01:13:58,880 --> 01:13:59,900 great power, and
1799 01:13:59,900 --> 01:14:02,360 England, Spain, Portugal.
1800 01:14:02,660 --> 01:14:03,080 And so on.
1801 01:14:03,440 --> 01:14:05,600 Then, over the years, it has
1802 01:14:05,600 --> 01:14:07,220 had different types of meaning,
1803 01:14:07,420 --> 01:14:09,260 and they usually lift it up
1804 01:14:09,260 --> 01:14:11,020 sometimes, in the early
1805 01:14:11,020 --> 01:14:12,520 1900s, and then it came to
1806 01:14:12,520 --> 01:14:15,060 the 40s, and then Trump
1807 01:14:15,060 --> 01:14:16,960 has now again launched it as
1808 01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:19,140 a term, and then he talks about
1809 01:14:19,140 --> 01:14:20,940 the Monroe and so on.
1810 01:14:21,540 --> 01:14:22,820 But I would say that
1811 01:14:22,820 --> 01:14:25,180 the USA has always,
1812 01:14:25,740 --> 01:14:27,180 over the whole 1900s,
1813 01:14:27,240 --> 01:14:28,760 there was the USA there.
1814 01:14:28,760 --> 01:14:31,200 So, that they exercised the Monroe Doctrine
1815 01:14:31,200 --> 01:14:32,620 for a long time. The first
1816 01:14:32,620 --> 01:14:33,660 time, there were no other
1817 01:14:33,660 --> 01:14:34,880 rivals in the same way.
1818 01:14:35,500 --> 01:14:37,500 So, neither Europe, nor China, nor
1819 01:14:37,500 --> 01:14:39,300 Russia was so much
1820 01:14:39,300 --> 01:14:41,160 interested. They were not
1821 01:14:41,160 --> 01:14:43,340 present in Latin America in the same
1822 01:14:43,340 --> 01:14:45,500 way. So, that you could continue.
1823 01:14:46,060 --> 01:14:47,660 You could carry out,
1824 01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:49,260 when you carried out neoliberalism,
1825 01:14:49,380 --> 01:14:51,160 you carried out very many
1826 01:14:51,160 --> 01:14:52,960 state groups, interventions
1827 01:14:52,960 --> 01:14:54,600 in countries,
1828 01:14:54,840 --> 01:14:57,000 in order to get through it.
1829 01:14:57,460 --> 01:14:58,840 So, then they also existed.
1830 01:14:58,840 --> 01:14:59,800 So, this with
1831 01:14:59,800 --> 01:15:02,540 military intervention is nothing.
1832 01:15:02,620 --> 01:15:05,380 nothing new that Trump has
1833 01:15:05,380 --> 01:15:06,800 come up with, but it is something
1834 01:15:06,800 --> 01:15:08,380 that they have always, so to speak,
1835 01:15:08,480 --> 01:15:10,760 used. Kissinger was
1836 01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,960 a great theorist behind
1837 01:15:12,960 --> 01:15:15,260 how to control
1838 01:15:15,260 --> 01:15:16,300 Latin America.
1839 01:15:16,900 --> 01:15:17,900 But this with
1840 01:15:17,900 --> 01:15:20,800 military interventions,
1841 01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:22,760 military methods to be able to solve
1842 01:15:22,760 --> 01:15:24,820 conflicts and try to get
1843 01:15:24,820 --> 01:15:26,740 control over countries
1844 01:15:26,740 --> 01:15:28,380 and governments, it has
1845 01:15:28,380 --> 01:15:30,580 again come back. It has come
1846 01:15:30,580 --> 01:15:31,880 in waves, so to speak.
1847 01:15:32,620 --> 01:15:34,560 One time it was Bill Clinton in
1848 01:15:34,560 --> 01:15:36,340 Guatemala and asked for forgiveness for
1849 01:15:36,340 --> 01:15:38,360 what they had done in
1850 01:15:38,360 --> 01:15:40,400 Guatemala. So, he went there and
1851 01:15:40,400 --> 01:15:42,460 asked for forgiveness. Obama
1852 01:15:42,460 --> 01:15:43,980 was also one of those who wanted
1853 01:15:43,980 --> 01:15:47,360 to get in touch with
1854 01:15:47,360 --> 01:15:48,480 Latin America in a different way.
1855 01:15:48,640 --> 01:15:49,920 So, another type of relationship.
1856 01:15:50,420 --> 01:15:52,160 Obama is the only American
1857 01:15:52,160 --> 01:15:54,380 president who has been in Cuba, for example,
1858 01:15:54,680 --> 01:15:55,940 since 1959.
1859 01:15:56,800 --> 01:15:58,160 Just that. So, they
1860 01:15:58,160 --> 01:16:00,280 tried. But, in the end,
1861 01:16:00,380 --> 01:16:02,260 it is not so that the president is,
1862 01:16:02,260 --> 01:16:02,560 so to speak,
1863 01:16:02,620 --> 01:16:04,360 the only power, but there are
1864 01:16:04,360 --> 01:16:06,200 several power centers. Pentagon
1865 01:16:06,200 --> 01:16:08,160 and so on, and so there is. But
1866 01:16:08,160 --> 01:16:09,980 what is happening now, there is a
1867 01:16:09,980 --> 01:16:11,940 pep in the security policy that is interesting,
1868 01:16:12,080 --> 01:16:13,980 which is called that it has
1869 01:16:13,980 --> 01:16:15,960 aggressive defensive holding.
1870 01:16:16,220 --> 01:16:18,140 I don't know if you've heard of that. It's a term
1871 01:16:18,140 --> 01:16:20,180 that they use. And they mean that
1872 01:16:20,180 --> 01:16:22,060 when a
1873 01:16:22,060 --> 01:16:24,360 great power feels
1874 01:16:24,360 --> 01:16:26,000 that its power
1875 01:16:26,000 --> 01:16:28,060 decreases, then you start to adapt
1876 01:16:28,060 --> 01:16:29,560 to your strategy.
1877 01:16:30,060 --> 01:16:31,840 They try to repel other rivals,
1878 01:16:31,840 --> 01:16:32,500 they try to
1879 01:16:32,500 --> 01:16:34,520 try to come in and then defend
1880 01:16:34,520 --> 01:16:36,420 their position. And then
1881 01:16:36,420 --> 01:16:37,740 you take it to such
1882 01:16:37,740 --> 01:16:40,280 risk-filled measures that you
1883 01:16:40,280 --> 01:16:41,980 have now done, for example,
1884 01:16:42,300 --> 01:16:44,320 by going into Caracas,
1885 01:16:44,480 --> 01:16:45,920 bombing Caracas, and then kidnapping
1886 01:16:45,920 --> 01:16:48,380 Maduro. But what we have
1887 01:16:48,380 --> 01:16:49,740 seen is that they have,
1888 01:16:50,000 --> 01:16:52,100 what they have done, is that
1889 01:16:52,100 --> 01:16:54,060 they are in, again,
1890 01:16:54,640 --> 01:16:55,780 I mean, it's not the first time,
1891 01:16:56,580 --> 01:16:58,880 I would call it
1892 01:16:58,880 --> 01:17:00,880 a militarization
1893 01:17:00,880 --> 01:17:01,480 of
1894 01:17:01,480 --> 01:17:02,820 the region.
1895 01:17:03,520 --> 01:17:05,740 So, for example, they have militarized
1896 01:17:05,740 --> 01:17:07,420 since, they have taken it
1897 01:17:07,420 --> 01:17:09,460 to the Caribbean and then to
1898 01:17:09,460 --> 01:17:11,620 outside Venezuela's coast
1899 01:17:11,620 --> 01:17:13,780 hangar ships. They have had
1900 01:17:13,780 --> 01:17:16,100 150 planes there
1901 01:17:16,100 --> 01:17:18,240 close. They have militarized
1902 01:17:18,240 --> 01:17:19,800 parts of Puerto Rico.
1903 01:17:20,400 --> 01:17:21,560 You're talking about that they have had
1904 01:17:21,560 --> 01:17:23,840 about 10,000 or 15,000 soldiers
1905 01:17:23,840 --> 01:17:25,320 in Puerto Rico, opened
1906 01:17:25,320 --> 01:17:27,920 again military bases
1907 01:17:27,920 --> 01:17:29,600 in Puerto Rico, just as you were
1908 01:17:29,600 --> 01:17:31,400 talking about. They forced it, in fact,
1909 01:17:31,480 --> 01:17:33,280 a right-wing government
1910 01:17:33,280 --> 01:17:35,560 to write a signatory agreement
1911 01:17:35,560 --> 01:17:37,160 that means that
1912 01:17:37,160 --> 01:17:38,640 the USA will have
1913 01:17:38,640 --> 01:17:41,140 military control over
1914 01:17:41,140 --> 01:17:43,420 the Panama Canal. They will also
1915 01:17:43,420 --> 01:17:45,280 be allowed to pass without
1916 01:17:45,280 --> 01:17:47,100 paying anything, American
1917 01:17:47,100 --> 01:17:49,100 ships, but also that they will
1918 01:17:49,100 --> 01:17:50,960 counter China's
1919 01:17:50,960 --> 01:17:52,520 influence and influence
1920 01:17:52,520 --> 01:17:55,900 in the Panama Canal
1921 01:17:55,900 --> 01:17:57,360 as well. So, they
1922 01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:58,240 have really
1923 01:17:58,240 --> 01:18:01,440 invested enormously, and the whole
1924 01:18:01,440 --> 01:18:02,980 escalation that they have done
1925 01:18:02,980 --> 01:18:04,160 in the Caribbean has not been seen
1926 01:18:04,160 --> 01:18:05,840 for 40, 50 years.
1927 01:18:06,280 --> 01:18:07,340 They are really on.
1928 01:18:08,140 --> 01:18:09,460 And then I come to this question,
1929 01:18:10,780 --> 01:18:11,580 what you were talking about,
1930 01:18:11,980 --> 01:18:13,820 why do you do what you do, and then
1931 01:18:13,820 --> 01:18:15,940 why don't you add the position
1932 01:18:15,940 --> 01:18:17,380 as a marionette government?
1933 01:18:18,040 --> 01:18:20,220 Why do they do what they do, that they go in,
1934 01:18:20,640 --> 01:18:21,980 kidnap Maduro,
1935 01:18:22,120 --> 01:18:23,720 and then pull them, and don't stop?
1936 01:18:24,180 --> 01:18:26,040 It has to do with that they have, of course,
1937 01:18:26,120 --> 01:18:28,180 taken lessons from Iraq,
1938 01:18:28,440 --> 01:18:29,920 Libya, Afghanistan,
1939 01:18:30,760 --> 01:18:31,140 USA,
1940 01:18:31,440 --> 01:18:32,600 as a great power today,
1941 01:18:33,060 --> 01:18:34,080 they don't have the power
1942 01:18:34,080 --> 01:18:36,820 to carry out a long-term
1943 01:18:36,820 --> 01:18:38,500 war, as they have done
1944 01:18:38,500 --> 01:18:40,880 before. So, they don't have
1945 01:18:40,880 --> 01:18:42,740 the power to go into Venezuela,
1946 01:18:42,900 --> 01:18:44,380 to occupy, and then
1947 01:18:44,380 --> 01:18:46,540 risk that it will be a temporary war.
1948 01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:48,120 It will be a war that
1949 01:18:48,120 --> 01:18:50,620 will continue, that will not
1950 01:18:50,620 --> 01:18:52,500 end, and then they will get
1951 01:18:52,500 --> 01:18:53,880 a choice
1952 01:18:53,880 --> 01:18:56,680 during the autumn, and then
1953 01:18:56,680 --> 01:18:57,800 they will have a war that
1954 01:18:57,800 --> 01:19:00,060 they cannot control, quite simply.
1955 01:19:00,320 --> 01:19:01,400 They can't handle it.
1956 01:19:01,440 --> 01:19:02,620 They don't have the power
1957 01:19:02,620 --> 01:19:04,000 to do it at all.
1958 01:19:04,740 --> 01:19:06,520 So, neither political nor economic
1959 01:19:06,520 --> 01:19:07,900 reasons can they actually
1960 01:19:07,900 --> 01:19:10,120 do it. That they don't
1961 01:19:10,120 --> 01:19:12,260 go in and
1962 01:19:12,260 --> 01:19:13,520 sort out the whole, so to say,
1963 01:19:13,780 --> 01:19:15,660 power there, and add
1964 01:19:15,660 --> 01:19:17,500 a marionette government, has to do
1965 01:19:17,500 --> 01:19:20,020 also with that they, just like
1966 01:19:20,020 --> 01:19:21,520 a report from CIA
1967 01:19:21,520 --> 01:19:24,420 says, this Venezuelan
1968 01:19:24,420 --> 01:19:25,840 right-wing position is
1969 01:19:25,840 --> 01:19:27,640 something that they themselves have created,
1970 01:19:28,020 --> 01:19:29,900 and financed, for many, many years.
1971 01:19:30,480 --> 01:19:30,780 I mean,
1972 01:19:31,440 --> 01:19:33,140 for example, she created
1973 01:19:33,140 --> 01:19:35,480 an organization that they
1974 01:19:35,480 --> 01:19:36,700 themselves financed,
1975 01:19:37,140 --> 01:19:38,320 the USA always financed
1976 01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:41,060 this organization, and they
1977 01:19:41,060 --> 01:19:42,460 have financed most of them,
1978 01:19:42,720 --> 01:19:44,820 most of the leaders, and they know about it.
1979 01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:47,620 Story, who was
1980 01:19:47,620 --> 01:19:49,120 previously ambassador in
1981 01:19:49,120 --> 01:19:50,780 Venezuela, he
1982 01:19:50,780 --> 01:19:53,380 was not in Venezuela, he was in Colombia,
1983 01:19:53,600 --> 01:19:55,060 but he was still ambassador for
1984 01:19:55,060 --> 01:19:57,200 Venezuela. He says to himself that it was we who
1985 01:19:57,200 --> 01:19:59,280 built this platform, this political
1986 01:19:59,280 --> 01:20:01,260 platform. And then he also says,
1987 01:20:01,440 --> 01:20:03,060 Marco Rovio, but most of them
1988 01:20:03,060 --> 01:20:05,000 are, this opposition,
1989 01:20:05,300 --> 01:20:07,120 they live abroad. They exist in
1990 01:20:07,120 --> 01:20:09,240 Miami, Madrid, and so on,
1991 01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:10,380 but they don't exist in Venezuela.
1992 01:20:11,140 --> 01:20:12,960 So, in a way, they understand
1993 01:20:12,960 --> 01:20:14,900 that if they
1994 01:20:14,900 --> 01:20:16,400 occupied or
1995 01:20:16,400 --> 01:20:19,260 set in
1996 01:20:19,260 --> 01:20:21,260 some kind of marionette regime,
1997 01:20:21,460 --> 01:20:23,000 so they know
1998 01:20:23,000 --> 01:20:24,460 that this regime would not
1999 01:20:24,460 --> 01:20:27,200 be able to last, not even a month,
2000 01:20:27,740 --> 01:20:28,880 before it had become
2001 01:20:28,880 --> 01:20:30,900 a city coup, a civil war,
2002 01:20:31,440 --> 01:20:33,000 or that they simply had to
2003 01:20:33,000 --> 01:20:35,020 withdraw, because they had not managed to do so.
2004 01:20:35,520 --> 01:20:36,760 And then the crisis would have become
2005 01:20:36,760 --> 01:20:38,580 worse, because then
2006 01:20:38,580 --> 01:20:41,180 no one would have actually been able to
2007 01:20:41,180 --> 01:20:42,160 control the situation.
2008 01:20:42,820 --> 01:20:44,900 And what they are doing now is, they have
2009 01:20:44,900 --> 01:20:46,700 always, always
2010 01:20:46,700 --> 01:20:49,300 had conversations and
2011 01:20:49,300 --> 01:20:50,860 negotiations. They have negotiations
2012 01:20:50,860 --> 01:20:52,900 in Barbados, they have
2013 01:20:52,900 --> 01:20:54,520 negotiations in Mexico,
2014 01:20:54,860 --> 01:20:56,260 they have negotiations in Colombia,
2015 01:20:56,740 --> 01:20:59,180 they have negotiations in Qatar,
2016 01:20:59,480 --> 01:21:01,100 where several different
2017 01:21:01,100 --> 01:21:01,140 countries,
2018 01:21:01,440 --> 01:21:03,380 sectors and countries have been involved.
2019 01:21:04,160 --> 01:21:05,220 We're talking about the Vatican
2020 01:21:05,220 --> 01:21:07,340 that has been involved, Turkey that has been involved,
2021 01:21:07,800 --> 01:21:08,780 Russia that has been involved.
2022 01:21:09,120 --> 01:21:10,700 So there are several countries that have been involved in the
2023 01:21:10,700 --> 01:21:13,000 different types of negotiations that have been.
2024 01:21:13,280 --> 01:21:15,120 And as I understand it,
2025 01:21:15,700 --> 01:21:17,080 it is that, as the USA
2026 01:21:17,080 --> 01:21:19,420 can't afford to
2027 01:21:19,420 --> 01:21:21,080 occupy the country, and that
2028 01:21:21,080 --> 01:21:22,660 they don't have an opposition that
2029 01:21:22,660 --> 01:21:24,940 can take over, and that can keep the power,
2030 01:21:25,360 --> 01:21:27,160 what they are interested in, in the US,
2031 01:21:27,380 --> 01:21:29,160 is to take oil, to control
2032 01:21:29,160 --> 01:21:31,240 oil, and then that is what you have,
2033 01:21:31,440 --> 01:21:32,220 I would say, negotiated about.
2034 01:21:32,560 --> 01:21:34,760 And what you negotiate about is that the American
2035 01:21:34,760 --> 01:21:36,780 oil companies should be able to come back
2036 01:21:36,780 --> 01:21:38,140 to Venezuela, which
2037 01:21:38,140 --> 01:21:40,520 the sitting government has said, okay,
2038 01:21:40,720 --> 01:21:41,940 of course they can do that.
2039 01:21:42,300 --> 01:21:44,560 But they can do that under our
2040 01:21:44,560 --> 01:21:46,580 conditions. The first thing that
2041 01:21:46,580 --> 01:21:48,320 Trump had after this attack
2042 01:21:48,320 --> 01:21:49,980 was with the oil companies.
2043 01:21:50,480 --> 01:21:52,400 And then they came. And Chevron
2044 01:21:52,400 --> 01:21:54,700 said at one point, we are there.
2045 01:21:55,220 --> 01:21:56,680 We can not only double,
2046 01:21:56,800 --> 01:21:58,120 but triple the production
2047 01:21:58,120 --> 01:22:00,340 if it is needed, without problem.
2048 01:22:00,600 --> 01:22:01,420 Repsol, which is a very good company, is a very good company.
2049 01:22:01,440 --> 01:22:03,100 The Spanish oil company said that we can also
2050 01:22:03,100 --> 01:22:04,480 triple the production,
2051 01:22:05,160 --> 01:22:07,280 while ExxonMobil said that they
2052 01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,560 didn't want to come back
2053 01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:11,220 before there was a safe
2054 01:22:11,220 --> 01:22:13,440 insurance that they could
2055 01:22:13,440 --> 01:22:16,000 produce and get their money.
2056 01:22:16,440 --> 01:22:16,880 Quite simply.
2057 01:22:17,320 --> 01:22:19,000 But actually what they want is that
2058 01:22:19,000 --> 01:22:21,300 you should change the constitution and laws
2059 01:22:21,300 --> 01:22:23,560 so that they can go in and not need
2060 01:22:23,560 --> 01:22:26,040 to pay royalties
2061 01:22:26,040 --> 01:22:27,720 and taxes for the production
2062 01:22:27,720 --> 01:22:28,880 they have, quite simply.
2063 01:22:29,520 --> 01:22:30,560 I think that the
2064 01:22:30,560 --> 01:22:32,540 next conflict,
2065 01:22:32,860 --> 01:22:34,960 and we will see if it becomes military or political
2066 01:22:34,960 --> 01:22:36,140 or in any other way,
2067 01:22:36,580 --> 01:22:37,400 is lithium.
2068 01:22:37,740 --> 01:22:40,200 We have these salt mines in
2069 01:22:40,200 --> 01:22:42,120 Bolivia, Chile and Argentina.
2070 01:22:42,120 --> 01:22:44,300 And there, during the time
2071 01:22:44,300 --> 01:22:46,180 the USA has tried
2072 01:22:46,180 --> 01:22:48,460 to intervene politically and militarily
2073 01:22:48,460 --> 01:22:49,900 in other countries, China
2074 01:22:49,900 --> 01:22:52,100 has invested money, just as they do.
2075 01:22:52,300 --> 01:22:53,840 They are not involved in politics,
2076 01:22:54,020 --> 01:22:55,040 they do business.
2077 01:22:55,720 --> 01:22:57,340 In Bolivia,
2078 01:22:57,600 --> 01:23:00,120 the Chinese have a lead.
2079 01:23:00,560 --> 01:23:05,460 In Chile, the state-owned company
2080 01:23:05,460 --> 01:23:07,220 Codelco,
2081 01:23:07,220 --> 01:23:09,900 and a private company
2082 01:23:09,900 --> 01:23:11,900 where the Chinese are involved,
2083 01:23:11,900 --> 01:23:14,560 I think they have around 25-30%
2084 01:23:14,560 --> 01:23:16,560 of the company, Sochemich,
2085 01:23:16,560 --> 01:23:18,560 they have written an agreement
2086 01:23:18,560 --> 01:23:20,560 that together they will develop
2087 01:23:20,560 --> 01:23:22,560 the production of lithium.
2088 01:23:22,560 --> 01:23:24,560 In Argentina, they also have
2089 01:23:24,560 --> 01:23:26,560 very large investments,
2090 01:23:26,560 --> 01:23:28,560 and 90% of the production of lithium
2091 01:23:28,560 --> 01:23:30,560 in Argentina goes to the Chinese.
2092 01:23:30,560 --> 01:23:32,560 So I think there will be
2093 01:23:32,560 --> 01:23:34,560 a big conflict there with the USA.
2094 01:23:34,560 --> 01:23:36,560 In the same way, it is with the ports.
2095 01:23:36,560 --> 01:23:38,560 A few days ago,
2096 01:23:38,560 --> 01:23:40,560 they signed an agreement with Colombia
2097 01:23:40,560 --> 01:23:42,560 so that they can
2098 01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:44,560 transfer the Caribbean Sea,
2099 01:23:44,560 --> 01:23:46,560 the Colombian-Caribbean coast there,
2100 01:23:46,560 --> 01:23:48,560 to the Colombian Stillehavskusten.
2101 01:23:48,560 --> 01:23:50,560 So they will be able to transport things.
2102 01:23:50,560 --> 01:23:52,560 Instead of going via Panama,
2103 01:23:52,560 --> 01:23:54,560 they will be able to go via
2104 01:23:54,560 --> 01:23:56,560 what is called Torre Vell.
2105 01:23:56,560 --> 01:23:58,560 But then they have the big mega port
2106 01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,560 that the Chinese themselves have built,
2107 01:24:00,560 --> 01:24:02,560 outside Lima in Peru.
2108 01:24:02,560 --> 01:24:04,560 Peru is ruled by a right-wing government,
2109 01:24:04,560 --> 01:24:06,560 because the Chinese, it doesn't matter
2110 01:24:06,560 --> 01:24:08,560 if it is right or left,
2111 01:24:08,560 --> 01:24:10,560 it is important that they can do business.
2112 01:24:10,560 --> 01:24:12,560 And now they have built the largest port
2113 01:24:12,560 --> 01:24:14,560 that exists in Latin America,
2114 01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:16,560 outside 60 km from Lima.
2115 01:24:16,560 --> 01:24:18,560 And they have complete control,
2116 01:24:18,560 --> 01:24:20,560 they have built and financed,
2117 01:24:20,560 --> 01:24:22,560 they have control, completely.
2118 01:24:22,560 --> 01:24:24,560 And that will be some kind of hub,
2119 01:24:24,560 --> 01:24:26,560 a point to transport from Brazil,
2120 01:24:26,560 --> 01:24:28,560 from Bolivia, from Ecuador,
2121 01:24:28,560 --> 01:24:30,560 from Argentina,
2122 01:24:30,560 --> 01:24:32,560 from the Stillehavet to China.
2123 01:24:32,560 --> 01:24:34,560 It is also, so to speak,
2124 01:24:34,560 --> 01:24:36,560 a big conflict.
2125 01:24:36,560 --> 01:24:38,560 And I think it is important,
2126 01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:40,560 because it will be economic, political and even military.
2127 01:24:40,560 --> 01:24:42,560 And the last thing I was going to say,
2128 01:24:42,560 --> 01:24:44,560 what one could have done,
2129 01:24:44,560 --> 01:24:46,560 because it is a big question,
2130 01:24:46,560 --> 01:24:48,560 how could one have stopped Trump before?
2131 01:24:48,560 --> 01:24:50,560 And here there is a big loser
2132 01:24:50,560 --> 01:24:52,560 that you don't talk so much about,
2133 01:24:52,560 --> 01:24:54,560 or few.
2134 01:24:54,560 --> 01:24:56,560 But the big loser is Brazil.
2135 01:24:56,560 --> 01:24:58,560 Brazil, you know, is a great power.
2136 01:24:58,560 --> 01:25:00,560 And they are also a global actor.
2137 01:25:00,560 --> 01:25:02,560 And a global actor is based on
2138 01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:04,560 that they have with them Latin America.
2139 01:25:04,560 --> 01:25:06,560 That one could, so to speak,
2140 01:25:06,560 --> 01:25:08,560 lead Latin America,
2141 01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:10,560 with Lula and so on.
2142 01:25:10,560 --> 01:25:12,560 But Lula never, so to speak,
2143 01:25:12,560 --> 01:25:14,560 built a unity,
2144 01:25:14,560 --> 01:25:16,560 a political and economic unity,
2145 01:25:16,560 --> 01:25:18,560 in Latin America.
2146 01:25:18,560 --> 01:25:20,560 Brazil wanted to be a leader
2147 01:25:20,560 --> 01:25:22,560 and not one continent.
2148 01:25:22,560 --> 01:25:24,560 Chavez tried several times,
2149 01:25:24,560 --> 01:25:26,560 in many different ways.
2150 01:25:26,560 --> 01:25:28,560 They built SELAC,
2151 01:25:28,560 --> 01:25:30,560 UNASUR,
2152 01:25:30,560 --> 01:25:32,560 in many different ways.
2153 01:25:32,560 --> 01:25:34,560 And you talk about Bolivia,
2154 01:25:34,560 --> 01:25:36,560 it was important for Bolivia
2155 01:25:36,560 --> 01:25:38,560 that the entire continent
2156 01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:40,560 would be a fatherland.
2157 01:25:40,560 --> 01:25:42,560 But Brazil, especially Lula,
2158 01:25:42,560 --> 01:25:44,560 refused,
2159 01:25:44,560 --> 01:25:46,560 apart from the political discussion
2160 01:25:46,560 --> 01:25:48,560 behind it,
2161 01:25:48,560 --> 01:25:50,560 they refused to do it.
2162 01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:52,560 Today it says,
2163 01:25:52,560 --> 01:25:54,560 all of them are not in agreement.
2164 01:25:54,560 --> 01:25:56,560 There is nothing to do against Trump.
2165 01:25:56,560 --> 01:25:58,560 Which also makes Brazil
2166 01:25:58,560 --> 01:26:00,560 quite weakened.
2167 01:26:00,560 --> 01:26:02,560 And the last thing
2168 01:26:02,560 --> 01:26:04,560 that Brazil did last year,
2169 01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:06,560 that many think
2170 01:26:06,560 --> 01:26:08,560 that they refused,
2171 01:26:08,560 --> 01:26:10,560 was that they did not let Venezuela
2172 01:26:10,560 --> 01:26:12,560 enter the BRICS.
2173 01:26:12,560 --> 01:26:14,560 It was Brazil, it was Lula,
2174 01:26:14,560 --> 01:26:16,560 who put veto on it.
2175 01:26:16,560 --> 01:26:18,560 They did not want them to enter there.
2176 01:26:18,560 --> 01:26:20,560 It may not have stopped
2177 01:26:20,560 --> 01:26:22,560 the military intervention,
2178 01:26:22,560 --> 01:26:24,560 but it would have helped Venezuela
2179 01:26:24,560 --> 01:26:26,560 and not been so isolated,
2180 01:26:26,560 --> 01:26:28,560 as it actually was.
2181 01:26:28,560 --> 01:26:30,560 And Brazil,
2182 01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:32,560 they thought they had won,
2183 01:26:32,560 --> 01:26:34,560 but they have lost quite a lot.
2184 01:26:34,560 --> 01:26:36,560 Because they are not as strong now.
2185 01:26:36,560 --> 01:26:38,560 And now they have to start
2186 01:26:38,560 --> 01:26:40,560 confronting Trump,
2187 01:26:40,560 --> 01:26:42,560 because they also want to be
2188 01:26:42,560 --> 01:26:44,560 a superpower in the region.
2189 01:26:44,560 --> 01:26:46,560 And it may not be so that
2190 01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:48,560 there are two superpowers,
2191 01:26:48,560 --> 01:26:50,560 the USA and Brazil,
2192 01:26:50,560 --> 01:26:52,560 that can still coexist.
2193 01:26:52,560 --> 01:26:54,560 It will be a problem,
2194 01:26:54,560 --> 01:26:56,560 both economically and politically.
2195 01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:58,560 You have such incredible knowledge
2196 01:26:58,560 --> 01:27:00,560 about the entire
2197 01:27:00,560 --> 01:27:02,560 Latin American history.
2198 01:27:02,560 --> 01:27:04,560 So it was nice to hear you here.
2199 01:27:04,560 --> 01:27:06,560 Thank you,
2200 01:27:06,560 --> 01:27:08,560 because we will have to
2201 01:27:08,560 --> 01:27:10,560 reconnect in a year
2202 01:27:10,560 --> 01:27:12,560 and see how, where
2203 01:27:12,560 --> 01:27:14,560 it comes from.
2204 01:27:14,560 --> 01:27:16,560 Follow up.
2205 01:27:16,560 --> 01:27:18,560 Invite John Hörnqvist as well.
2206 01:27:18,560 --> 01:27:20,560 Yes, please.
2207 01:27:20,560 --> 01:27:22,560 But then we say so.
2208 01:27:22,560 --> 01:27:24,560 Thank you very much.
2209 01:27:24,560 --> 01:27:26,560 Bye-bye.
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Skapad: 14 april 2026