Ropen hörs oftare från högern. Inbördeskriget bryter snart ut. Det är oundvikligt. Samhällskontraktet är brutet. Samtidigt har vänstern glömt inbördeskriget - och därmed även glömt revolutionen. Därmed osynliggör vi det våld som finns inbyggd i kapitalismen. Med Björn Nordh går vi igenom teorierna om inbördeskriget, från Carl Schmitt, Hannah Arendt och Hans Magnus Enzensberger över till Maurizio Lazzarato och Tiqqun. Är samhället lika kännetecknat av ett inbördes krig som en inbördes hjälp? För mer info: Maurizio Lazzarato and Éric Alliez: To Our Enemies https://www.e-flux.com/journal/78/82697/to-our-enemies/ Tiqqun: The great game of civil war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mazF28rCNvU Böcker: Hannah Arendt: Om revolutionen (Daidalos, 2021) Carl Schimtt: Det poltiska som bwgrepp (Daidalos, 2010) Hans Magnus Enzensberger: Inbördes krig (Nordstedts, 1993) Maurizio Lazzarato: Capital hates everone: Fascism or revolution (Semiotext(e), 2021) Giorgio Agamben: Stasis: Civil War as a Political Paradigm (Standford University press, 2015) Tiqqun: Introduction to civil war (Semiotext(e), 2010)
1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:12,930 Until further notice, all your rights are hereby suspended.
2 00:00:13,410 --> 00:00:17,430 Naturally, you should keep the illusion that you still have some for a little while.
3 00:00:17,690 --> 00:00:21,290 That way we can violate them one by one, case by case.
4 00:00:22,070 --> 00:00:23,710 Rule number two, be nice.
5 00:00:24,030 --> 00:00:29,570 Don't mention laws, the Constitution, or any of the lubrications of another age to us anymore.
6 00:00:30,070 --> 00:00:31,990 Some time ago, as you may have noticed,
7 00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:38,990 we passed certain laws that put us above the laws and the rest of the so-called Constitution.
8 00:00:40,130 --> 00:00:45,170 Rule number three, you're weak, isolated, stupid, abused.
9 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:49,570 We are numerous, organized, strong, and enlightened.
10 00:00:50,270 --> 00:00:51,890 Some might say we're a mafia.
11 00:00:52,910 --> 00:00:53,890 That's a lie.
12 00:00:54,330 --> 00:00:58,130 We are the mafia, the one that's won out over all the others.
13 00:00:58,130 --> 00:01:01,550 We alone are able to protect you from the chaos of the world
14 00:01:01,550 --> 00:01:01,970 and the world itself.
15 00:01:02,210 --> 00:01:05,090 That's why it pleases us so greatly to make you think you're weak,
16 00:01:05,330 --> 00:01:07,410 to make you believe you are insecure.
17 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:10,610 That's what makes our racket so profitable.
18 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:15,290 Rule number four, for you, the game will consist in you escaping,
19 00:01:15,490 --> 00:01:17,030 or at least trying to escape.
20 00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:20,630 By escaping, we mean going beyond your dependent state.
21 00:01:21,090 --> 00:01:24,430 For now, it's true you do depend on us in all aspects of your life.
22 00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:27,130 You eat what we produce, you breathe what we pollute,
23 00:01:27,130 --> 00:01:29,450 you're at our mercy for the slightest tooth decay,
24 00:01:29,810 --> 00:01:31,810 and above all, you can't do anything.
25 00:01:31,990 --> 00:01:33,850 Against the sovereignty of our police forces,
26 00:01:34,150 --> 00:01:36,090 which we have given the full range of powers,
27 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:39,030 both in terms of discretion and action.
28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,360 Welcome to The Ape's Anatomy.
29 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,120 Now I'm sitting in Gothenburg this time,
30 00:01:54,420 --> 00:01:57,240 in a kitchen, at home with Björn Nord.
31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:01:59,500 Björn Nord, welcome.
32 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,000 It's the second time you're on the podcast.
33 00:02:01,660 --> 00:02:03,260 Yes, thanks. It's fun to be back.
34 00:02:03,940 --> 00:02:07,800 We're going to tie in a little bit to what we talked about last time.
35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,320 Mm, exactly.
36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:10,520 What did we talk about last time?
37 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:13,800 We talked about... The starting point was a little bit...
38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,160 The first stop was my text, which was with Brand,
39 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:17,560 which was called The Ape of Survival.
40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,380 And then there was a lot of focus on the ape, the ape concept.
41 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:24,800 And now we're going over a little bit more about...
42 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,500 We're talking about war and civil war.
43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,020 Yes, civil war.
44 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:29,220 And that...
45 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:36,280 For a while, I made an episode that was about the global war,
46 00:02:36,460 --> 00:02:37,800 the global war regime.
47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:38,840 Mm.
48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,120 And I went into that a little bit with Maurizio Lazzarato,
49 00:02:42,420 --> 00:02:46,120 who is an autonomous theorist.
50 00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:48,680 He's originally from Padua.
51 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,520 I don't know if I said that, but I've met him,
52 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:53,520 and I've also met his sister in Padua.
53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,580 Yes, you had even forgotten that you had interviewed him once.
54 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,160 Yes, that's right. I have an interview with him.
55 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:04,060 And he, in Poter Operai, was the one who was responsible
56 00:03:04,060 --> 00:03:06,620 for their militant branch in Padua.
57 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:07,320 So he...
58 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,320 Then he fled and wanted to end up in Paris.
59 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,260 And there, I think, he got access to Foucault's archive
60 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:16,780 and devoted himself a lot to Foucault.
61 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,460 And we have read this book called
62 00:03:21,460 --> 00:03:23,800 Capital Hates Everyone.
63 00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:25,780 And you've read many more books about him.
64 00:03:25,780 --> 00:03:27,240 Yes, I have read...
65 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,100 Before this interview, I had mostly just read his text
66 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:34,860 about immaterial work, which comes with a collection
67 00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:37,000 from the 90s called Radical Politics in Italy.
68 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,260 But now it's a bit like I fell into the Lazzarato rabbit hole
69 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:41,860 and read most of what I came across.
70 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,840 So I've also read War and Capital, a slightly thicker book,
71 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:48,420 and I've also read these texts that he's written
72 00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:50,220 that are on illwill on the internet.
73 00:03:50,780 --> 00:03:54,980 And it's a bit exciting now when both Mario Tronti
74 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:57,860 and Antonio Negri, Tony Negri, are gone.
75 00:03:58,140 --> 00:04:01,280 To walk in the circle around them,
76 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,940 because they were never alone.
77 00:04:03,940 --> 00:04:07,200 They always thought collectively with a large group,
78 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,440 with other people.
79 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,260 And then you find Maurizio Lazzarato,
80 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:15,660 Sandro Messadra, who is talked about in the podcast,
81 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,839 Paolo Virno, and...
82 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,600 Yes, there's a lot to take from there.
83 00:04:22,980 --> 00:04:24,700 Yes, and there is a...
84 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:25,980 We have a common comrade,
85 00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:27,720 who is a little jokingly used to call Lazzarato
86 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:28,600 for Dark Negri.
87 00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:33,220 Even if it's a joke, I still think it's quite touching,
88 00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:35,520 because Tony Negri is very positive and exciting
89 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,180 about capitalism in the United States,
90 00:04:37,300 --> 00:04:39,100 the platform, the new opportunities
91 00:04:39,120 --> 00:04:41,220 for evolutionary movements.
92 00:04:41,400 --> 00:04:43,360 So Lazzarato sees in more
93 00:04:43,520 --> 00:04:47,380 war, civil war, control, chaos, that sort of thing.
94 00:04:47,820 --> 00:04:49,740 So before I got caught up with this,
95 00:04:49,740 --> 00:04:52,140 I still thought they were close to each other,
96 00:04:52,140 --> 00:04:54,500 since they come from the same tradition,
97 00:04:54,500 --> 00:04:56,600 but Lazzarato is even still discomfortable
98 00:04:56,840 --> 00:04:58,720 in his critique of H on N.
99 00:04:59,080 --> 00:05:02,780 This is also something that makes the time
100 00:05:02,780 --> 00:05:05,500 they make a book end.
101 00:05:05,500 --> 00:05:06,860 Both with the time...
102 00:05:06,860 --> 00:05:13,760 the time with Negri and the time with the imperial analysis and the time of Foucault's analysis about
103 00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:22,360 bio-power and so on. It's like a pendulum movement that they reacted to in the 60s and 70s and
104 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:27,260 went to France and found something completely different and that it went too far in the other
105 00:05:27,260 --> 00:05:34,920 direction and now they're trying to turn the pendulum back a little. So what can you say is
106 00:05:34,920 --> 00:05:40,840 Lazzarato's basic thesis in this Capital Hates Everyone?
107 00:05:41,560 --> 00:05:47,220 The most important thing I would say in the Red Thread is how he looks at war,
108 00:05:47,360 --> 00:05:54,920 civil war and the original accumulation. He connects war between states, civil war,
109 00:05:55,380 --> 00:06:01,840 connected to class, racism and gender. That it has always followed the development of capital and
110 00:06:01,840 --> 00:06:04,840 it's because they have the basis in what is called class.
111 00:06:04,920 --> 00:06:10,780 To attract more, classic Marxist schools refer to the original accumulation, which Marx called
112 00:06:10,780 --> 00:06:15,460 the historical distinction between the processes between producers and production, ie the processes
113 00:06:15,460 --> 00:06:18,780 of privatization, speaker jeśli harhh Cuando la productividad creativa se convertirá en
114 00:06:18,780 --> 00:06:22,200 Baldwin. when the multiple resources are in the CA and so on. Marx says it was a process
115 00:06:22,200 --> 00:06:27,020 that was caterpillatory from top to toe over each pan with blood and dirt. And that's an
116 00:06:27,020 --> 00:06:31,480 mission that National Limit has- this blood and the dirt that follow the original accumulation
117 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:33,500 which he means is something that has to come over it's pe hät as long as it's endemic.
118 00:06:33,500 --> 00:06:33,520 Yeah Well thank you for lying to me for 가장 på om. But just so I know you. And thanks a lot drastically, thank you so much.
119 00:06:33,520 --> 00:06:33,680 Good night and all of you. See you in the near near future. You're welcome to the next grenade very soon. Lazarato, goodbye.
120 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,300 It's something that needs to be done on a daily basis.
121 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:42,520 The subordination of these classes is not something that has happened as a historic factum,
122 00:06:42,640 --> 00:06:45,300 as a form of precondition for the capitalist production system,
123 00:06:45,780 --> 00:06:48,240 but it's a constantly ongoing process, he means.
124 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:54,260 And that this process requires a very non-economic violence that forms classes
125 00:06:54,260 --> 00:06:58,480 and that forms, in a way, a fundamental heraldry and a preserving violence
126 00:06:58,480 --> 00:07:02,540 that both stabilizes and reproduces relations between the victors and the defeated.
127 00:07:02,540 --> 00:07:08,120 And that's really something that goes back to his take on the global civil war.
128 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,880 Simply put, that these wars, they destroy bodies, not physically,
129 00:07:12,440 --> 00:07:15,820 and then they divide them up into victors and defeated, into owners and non-owners.
130 00:07:16,960 --> 00:07:25,240 So, many Marxists do this, that capitalism builds on violence and blood in its introduction.
131 00:07:25,240 --> 00:07:25,820 Exactly.
132 00:07:26,140 --> 00:07:32,240 Just when you drive away these small self-owning bands from their land,
133 00:07:32,540 --> 00:07:38,240 they are forced to seek, and own nothing other than their labor,
134 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,140 to seek into the factories, that there is violence.
135 00:07:41,140 --> 00:07:44,240 And there is then violence in colonialism,
136 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:46,000 that is, the annihilation of the world,
137 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:50,240 to take everything from slaves to resources in possession.
138 00:07:50,240 --> 00:07:57,460 But then, during the 1900s, and the global free hand, neoliberalism,
139 00:07:57,460 --> 00:07:59,940 it has been a time of peace.
140 00:07:59,940 --> 00:08:01,240 And that is...
141 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:02,120 Yes, but as it is...
142 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:02,440 Yes, but as it is...
143 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,220 The EU has been a peace project, by creating trade in Europe,
144 00:08:06,380 --> 00:08:09,520 so the war disappeared from Europe.
145 00:08:10,020 --> 00:08:14,160 And now we have seen the war's return to Europe,
146 00:08:14,500 --> 00:08:20,480 and a time that we thought maybe was that the war had more disappeared
147 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:25,060 and passed away in police operations, in a way,
148 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:30,040 that they had been so ideologically motivated by the USA and desalinated,
149 00:08:30,040 --> 00:08:31,220 that one intervenes.
150 00:08:31,500 --> 00:08:31,820 Yes.
151 00:08:31,820 --> 00:08:31,840 Yes.
152 00:08:31,840 --> 00:08:31,860 Yes.
153 00:08:31,860 --> 00:08:31,880 Yes.
154 00:08:31,880 --> 00:08:31,900 Yes.
155 00:08:31,900 --> 00:08:31,920 Yes.
156 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:31,940 Yes.
157 00:08:31,940 --> 00:08:32,000 Yes.
158 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:32,020 Yes.
159 00:08:32,020 --> 00:08:32,039 Yes.
160 00:08:32,039 --> 00:08:32,140 Yes.
161 00:08:32,140 --> 00:08:32,159 Yes.
162 00:08:32,159 --> 00:08:32,179 Yes.
163 00:08:32,179 --> 00:08:32,419 Yes.
164 00:08:32,440 --> 00:08:45,920 Yes.
165 00:09:01,800 --> 00:09:01,840 Yes.
166 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:01,860 Yes.
167 00:09:02,320 --> 00:09:02,360 Yes.
168 00:09:02,360 --> 00:09:02,380 Yes.
169 00:09:02,380 --> 00:09:05,980 and the civil war, from this analysis.
170 00:09:05,980 --> 00:09:10,780 If you take Foucault's concept of biopolitics,
171 00:09:10,780 --> 00:09:17,980 biopolitics is a policy that is exercised over populations, over populations,
172 00:09:17,980 --> 00:09:28,480 to get them to be healthy, caring, to go to work, to be alive.
173 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:38,180 It's a policy that goes out a lot about not punishing, disciplining them in that way.
174 00:09:38,180 --> 00:09:44,380 That they are not nigging, threatening them, for they are maken recap.
175 00:09:44,380 --> 00:09:48,880 I read another text from Lazzarath and he calls that pastoral power.
176 00:09:48,880 --> 00:09:54,680 Kind of like the邪 from a tail using its beak.
177 00:09:54,680 --> 00:09:57,740 The médiorie are afraid they may run away from the steed,
178 00:09:57,740 --> 00:09:58,280 م ㅋㅋㅋㅋ
179 00:09:58,280 --> 00:10:04,280 So you get them to run to where you want them to go.
180 00:10:04,280 --> 00:10:16,280 From Foucault to Deleuze and Guattari to Nehru and Hart, instead of looking at power as repressive, you look at how it produces.
181 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:24,280 It's productive, it creates needs, desires, joy, longing for people.
182 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:31,280 And you can even say that this productive almost comes before the capital.
183 00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:36,280 The resistance comes before the power of Foucault in the end.
184 00:10:36,280 --> 00:10:46,280 There are a lot of productive communities and then the Foucault-herds come and try to turn things around to make money.
185 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:54,280 It's like having a community on the internet to make money so that people can sit there and put money up.
186 00:10:54,280 --> 00:11:00,280 And have their daily conversations with food recipes and talk about life and so on.
187 00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:10,280 And that's what Lazzarato brings back to the first step, that the original accumulation and the victory of the capital must happen first.
188 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,280 And it happens through repression, through violence.
189 00:11:13,280 --> 00:11:21,280 He means that the existence of profit requires national state, racism, sexism.
190 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,280 If necessary, then also fascism and civil war.
191 00:11:23,280 --> 00:11:24,280 If necessary, then also fascism and civil war.
192 00:11:24,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Because it is politically possible for him to continue exploitation and exit the situation as it should.
193 00:11:31,280 --> 00:11:36,280 That is, without state, without war, without racism, without fascism, there will be no profit.
194 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:44,280 He really connects it with violence and fascism, with profit and with the survival of capitalism.
195 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:46,280 He means that,
196 00:11:46,280 --> 00:11:49,280 And you're talking about this a bit in this war regime section too,
197 00:11:49,280 --> 00:11:53,280 it's not like he totally denies the resolve of Gattari and Foucault or so.
198 00:11:53,280 --> 00:11:59,180 But he means that it's a later step, with the form of subjectivities and all that.
199 00:11:59,180 --> 00:12:07,980 Even when he talks about neoliberalism and its influence in Latin America,
200 00:12:07,980 --> 00:12:15,480 and how it spread from Latin America in the 70s to England and the rest of the world,
201 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,080 that it has also been a violent process.
202 00:12:18,080 --> 00:12:24,580 It has been designed to crush the labor movement, the trade union movement,
203 00:12:24,580 --> 00:12:29,580 and to depose democratically elected socialist presidents,
204 00:12:29,580 --> 00:12:38,580 in order to create this free, regulated market that neoliberalism is based on.
205 00:12:38,580 --> 00:12:46,580 So even our neoliberalism of the time is bleeding, not just what happened in the 17th and 18th centuries.
206 00:12:46,580 --> 00:12:47,580 Yes, exactly.
207 00:12:47,580 --> 00:12:52,580 Because it's very clear that the neoliberal economists were in cahoots with the police,
208 00:12:52,580 --> 00:12:56,580 the torturers, the military, during the introduction of neoliberalism.
209 00:12:56,580 --> 00:12:58,080 And that it was a basic requirement.
210 00:12:58,080 --> 00:13:04,580 Later, we can talk about the institutions, the economy, and the subjectivities that neoliberalism created.
211 00:13:04,580 --> 00:13:11,080 But the first was the violent introduction of the neoliberal counter-revolution.
212 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:16,080 If we go back a bit, if neoliberalism was a form of capitalist counter-revolution,
213 00:13:16,080 --> 00:13:17,080 where one introduced...
214 00:13:17,080 --> 00:13:17,480 Yes.
215 00:13:17,580 --> 00:13:19,080 ...neoliberalism with violence,
216 00:13:19,080 --> 00:13:26,080 then we can go back in time a bit, because it was just an aspect of what he meant by the global civil war.
217 00:13:26,080 --> 00:13:36,580 Because he meant that the global civil war is a concept that has its basis in Carl Schmitt and Hannah Arendt.
218 00:13:36,580 --> 00:13:41,580 And they wrote at the same time, they formulated similar thoughts at the beginning of the sixties,
219 00:13:41,580 --> 00:13:47,080 where they investigated the situation where the boundaries between war and peace have become more diffuse,
220 00:13:47,080 --> 00:13:50,080 and that the role of national states has changed and weakened.
221 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:52,580 If we start with Carl Schmitt, who was...
222 00:13:52,580 --> 00:13:55,580 You talked a bit about him in the war skim section.
223 00:13:55,580 --> 00:13:56,080 Mm.
224 00:13:56,080 --> 00:13:58,080 He's a really good guy.
225 00:13:58,080 --> 00:14:02,580 He's like a German jurist, political thinker, but also a Nazi,
226 00:14:02,580 --> 00:14:05,080 who, among other things, refused Nazification after the war.
227 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:06,580 So he was hardcore.
228 00:14:06,580 --> 00:14:11,580 And for him, this concept of the global civil war undermines precisely the crisis of the sovereign state,
229 00:14:11,580 --> 00:14:16,580 and that this traditional division of power has collapsed, and that there is a risk that the waning conflict will arise,
230 00:14:16,580 --> 00:14:21,080 and that this is what is happening around these international laws, international contexts,
231 00:14:21,080 --> 00:14:25,580 and that this distinction that he, perhaps most known for, this between friend and enemy,
232 00:14:25,580 --> 00:14:31,580 which he had previously proposed for a way to regulate antagonistic relations between sovereign states,
233 00:14:31,580 --> 00:14:36,580 that it no longer holds, and that borders, border territories,
234 00:14:36,580 --> 00:14:40,580 it becomes of less importance to regulate the enemy earlier.
235 00:14:40,580 --> 00:14:43,080 And that's a bit of what he's trying to catch up with in the gap.
236 00:14:43,080 --> 00:14:43,580 And he's also very much aware of the fact that earlier,
237 00:14:43,580 --> 00:14:44,580 And he's also very much aware of the fact that earlier,
238 00:14:44,580 --> 00:14:45,580 And he's also very much aware of the fact that earlier,
239 00:14:45,580 --> 00:14:46,580 And he's also very much aware of the fact that earlier,
240 00:14:46,580 --> 00:14:50,580 regimes, military regimes, fought cheers by British secret deputies has built it up,
241 00:14:50,580 --> 00:14:53,580 Great Britain built up control over the sea inよね
242 00:14:53,580 --> 00:14:54,580 And thenger stood up to,
243 00:14:54,580 --> 00:14:55,580 And thenger stood up to,
244 00:14:55,580 --> 00:14:56,580 And thenger stood up to,
245 00:14:56,580 --> 00:14:59,580 for example,ую But Germany, who was normally ruled by great powers,
246 00:14:59,580 --> 00:15:00,920 gave them its tanks, their lumps of detail
247 00:15:00,920 --> 00:15:03,200 but связ Res IX Empire have built them with thunderous threats,
248 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:06,080 but when civil war became and the washer and defeating war continued,
249 00:15:06,080 --> 00:15:10,580 the companies reaffirmed a relation to the territory and the Sense Otherenden
250 00:15:10,580 --> 00:15:13,580 the relations to the territory and the Michelle ir and the American War arms,
251 00:15:13,580 --> 00:15:15,580 of our marketplace, theurate of the prized wealth.
252 00:15:15,580 --> 00:15:26,920 with drones and all missiles means that territorial control will be something completely different today.
253 00:15:27,360 --> 00:15:30,040 The role of war is completely changed.
254 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:41,800 And we see that clearly today where Israel is waging a war against Hamas, Hezbollah, rebels in Yemen
255 00:15:41,800 --> 00:15:48,800 who may all have some support from Iran, but who are not regular armies in any way.
256 00:15:48,800 --> 00:16:01,160 They are irregular fighters who have access to drones, to such good weapons now that they are capable of causing Israel great damage back.
257 00:16:01,160 --> 00:16:05,800 Exactly, that they can get through this missile defense and that they are so advanced.
258 00:16:05,800 --> 00:16:11,780 So, Lazzarato and even Carl Schmitt would in a way describe this more as a
259 00:16:11,780 --> 00:16:21,780 regional civil war than a war, so to speak, because it is something that happens through the nations
260 00:16:21,780 --> 00:16:28,780 and it is not between sovereign nations that this happens in that way, the war.
261 00:16:28,780 --> 00:16:34,780 No, and that's exactly what Hannah Arendt is also talking about, that with the total war during the First World War,
262 00:16:34,780 --> 00:16:40,780 it also became so that the distinction between military and civilian and soldiers and civilians,
263 00:16:40,780 --> 00:16:41,780 that it stopped.
264 00:16:41,780 --> 00:16:48,780 And she means, she uses an example that with the total war, it means that there will be a
265 00:16:48,780 --> 00:16:53,780 conquest, a way of war that is similar to what Rome used against Carthage and that is
266 00:16:53,780 --> 00:16:55,780 simply to eradicate it from the surface of the earth.
267 00:16:55,780 --> 00:17:00,780 And that's exactly what we can see now also in Gaza, that it is Israel, they completely destroy it.
268 00:17:00,780 --> 00:17:02,780 Yes, it is the total war.
269 00:17:02,780 --> 00:17:08,780 Yes, it is really the total war on all fronts, both military and economically with blockades and emergencies,
270 00:17:08,780 --> 00:17:10,780 and destroying infrastructure.
271 00:17:10,780 --> 00:17:24,780 To conquer Hamas military borders, one must conquer the entire people, the entire civilization, the end, totally.
272 00:17:24,780 --> 00:17:34,780 But there is something else here with Hannah Arendt and Lazzarato when they talk about this as well as the global civil war,
273 00:17:34,780 --> 00:17:39,780 and that is also that there is a basic antagonism, a basic conflict in this,
274 00:17:39,780 --> 00:17:49,780 if we have these great state theorists in the 16th century, like Hobbes and the contract theory,
275 00:17:49,780 --> 00:17:53,780 he describes it as if the state is everyone's war against everyone.
276 00:17:53,780 --> 00:18:02,780 And then comes a kind of threat and threatens everyone with death if they do not surrender,
277 00:18:02,780 --> 00:18:06,780 but if they surrender, he will guarantee their lives.
278 00:18:06,780 --> 00:18:08,780 So they get rights against him.
279 00:18:08,780 --> 00:18:10,780 But they also get rights against him if they do not surrender,
280 00:18:10,780 --> 00:18:12,780 against the fact that he has been made sovereign.
281 00:18:12,780 --> 00:18:16,780 It is a mythological picture of the state's emergence.
282 00:18:16,780 --> 00:18:22,780 The state is the war of everyone against everyone, and then the state arises from that.
283 00:18:22,780 --> 00:18:32,780 And the purpose of the state is to crush it, or counter it, or control it, or administer it, to keep this civil war.
284 00:18:32,780 --> 00:18:36,780 And Hannah Arendt, she writes that if the 19th century is known as something,
285 00:18:36,780 --> 00:18:39,780 then there are two major events.
286 00:18:39,780 --> 00:18:43,780 It is the war, and it is the revolutions.
287 00:18:43,780 --> 00:18:48,780 And where the civil war is somewhere a hybrid, or stands between,
288 00:18:48,780 --> 00:18:54,780 it is that the civil war can be the failed revolution.
289 00:18:54,780 --> 00:18:57,780 It is the same thing with Lazzaretto.
290 00:18:57,780 --> 00:19:00,780 He also writes a history of the 19th century.
291 00:19:00,780 --> 00:19:04,780 During the 18th century, a number of labor revolts take place in Europe.
292 00:19:04,780 --> 00:19:05,780 All are crushed.
293 00:19:05,780 --> 00:19:07,780 No one succeeds.
294 00:19:07,780 --> 00:19:13,780 But during the 19th century, he says that the revolts become global.
295 00:19:13,780 --> 00:19:26,780 And when there is a wave from 1917 to, let's say, 1956, 1968, or 2011,
296 00:19:26,780 --> 00:19:33,780 or forward, you can see that there is an international spread.
297 00:19:33,780 --> 00:19:38,780 And that it is also because there is a fundamental antagonism, a contradiction,
298 00:19:38,780 --> 00:19:40,780 that is never solved.
299 00:19:40,780 --> 00:19:45,780 It is latent, temporary, passivized.
300 00:19:45,780 --> 00:19:49,780 And the left that does not assume that the contradiction exists there,
301 00:19:49,780 --> 00:19:53,780 thinks that if you do not have the revolution on your horizon,
302 00:19:53,780 --> 00:19:55,780 or as a thought,
303 00:19:55,780 --> 00:20:01,780 then you do not understand that this violent ruination is an essence in that way.
304 00:20:01,780 --> 00:20:02,780 No.
305 00:20:02,780 --> 00:20:05,780 It is something that cannot be removed from capitalism.
306 00:20:05,780 --> 00:20:07,780 It is there.
307 00:20:07,780 --> 00:20:12,780 And so much through the history of capitalism goes out to take control
308 00:20:12,780 --> 00:20:15,780 and administer this in different ways.
309 00:20:15,780 --> 00:20:24,780 Or do it to a motor that through fascism, through these counter-revolutions, directs it.
310 00:20:24,780 --> 00:20:30,780 Hanaren's assumption is that both liberalism and socialism, or communism,
311 00:20:30,780 --> 00:20:33,780 rest on these revolutions.
312 00:20:33,780 --> 00:20:36,780 But that the liberals emphasize the side of freedom in it.
313 00:20:36,780 --> 00:20:43,780 That it is freedom while the socialists emphasize equality in it.
314 00:20:43,780 --> 00:20:49,780 But the specific thing about a revolution is, unlike reforms and others,
315 00:20:49,780 --> 00:20:51,780 that it is a beginning of something new.
316 00:20:51,780 --> 00:20:54,780 That you draw a border.
317 00:20:54,780 --> 00:20:56,780 The old is over.
318 00:20:56,780 --> 00:20:59,780 Here we begin something completely different.
319 00:20:59,780 --> 00:21:04,780 And that it is the unique thing about the revolution that Hannah Arendt mentions.
320 00:21:04,780 --> 00:21:07,780 Yes, she writes that the revolution is the end of war.
321 00:21:07,780 --> 00:21:11,780 She does not use specifically the concept of the global civil war,
322 00:21:11,780 --> 00:21:16,780 but she writes that war and revolution have always been connected.
323 00:21:16,780 --> 00:21:20,780 She takes examples from the American Revolution and the French Revolution.
324 00:21:20,780 --> 00:21:23,780 For example, the American Revolution was preceded and followed by a form of war of freedom.
325 00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:26,780 And the French Revolution led to a war of defence and attack,
326 00:21:26,780 --> 00:21:28,780 as Napoleon came up with in the historical scene.
327 00:21:28,780 --> 00:21:36,780 But during the 19th century, the war has been more of a preparation for the revolution.
328 00:21:36,780 --> 00:21:42,780 Where it became a form of a world war that followed the revolution.
329 00:21:42,780 --> 00:21:46,780 Or as she writes, a kind of civil war that raged throughout the world.
330 00:21:46,780 --> 00:21:50,780 A kind of global civil war, although with a slightly different meaning.
331 00:21:50,780 --> 00:21:54,780 And she means that war and revolutions are connected,
332 00:21:54,780 --> 00:21:57,780 but that the center of gravity during the 19th century was removed from the war.
333 00:21:58,780 --> 00:22:00,780 It was removed from the revolution.
334 00:22:00,780 --> 00:22:04,780 And in the same way, we can also see that revolutions often occur
335 00:22:04,780 --> 00:22:09,780 when the war has been exhausted and not won anymore.
336 00:22:09,780 --> 00:22:14,780 And then there is the possibility that after the First World War,
337 00:22:14,780 --> 00:22:19,780 the Russian Revolution, when a sovereign, a power,
338 00:22:19,780 --> 00:22:33,980 has lost its total legitimacy in what is happening.
339 00:22:33,980 --> 00:22:40,980 And for Lazzaretto, it is in Foucault and the whole spirit of Antenegro,
340 00:22:40,980 --> 00:22:45,980 in this attempt to see this resistance as productive, constructive,
341 00:22:45,980 --> 00:22:50,980 as a multitude that has created itself, that pulls itself away,
342 00:22:50,980 --> 00:22:52,980 that creates something else.
343 00:22:52,980 --> 00:22:57,980 There is only violence as a way to defend itself,
344 00:22:57,980 --> 00:22:59,980 as a way to defend oneself, as a way to defend oneself,
345 00:22:59,980 --> 00:23:00,980 as a way to defend oneself, as a way to defend oneself,
346 00:23:00,980 --> 00:23:01,980 as a way to defend oneself,
347 00:23:01,980 --> 00:23:02,980 as a way to defend oneself,
348 00:23:02,980 --> 00:23:04,980 just like with an occupied house.
349 00:23:04,980 --> 00:23:07,980 You do not lock yourself in and take the house with violence,
350 00:23:07,980 --> 00:23:11,980 but you take it inside your house, you fill it with activity,
351 00:23:11,980 --> 00:23:13,980 you create legitimacy around it,
352 00:23:13,980 --> 00:23:17,980 and then when the state tries to bring it back in different ways
353 00:23:17,980 --> 00:23:20,980 and storms it, then you have the right to defend yourself.
354 00:23:20,980 --> 00:23:24,980 And then violence comes from there.
355 00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:26,980 No, precisely, I have to agree that there is a formulation,
356 00:23:26,980 --> 00:23:28,980 I do not know if it's in the Multitudes,
357 00:23:28,980 --> 00:23:30,980 where Harthorn could write that violence can never create anything,
358 00:23:30,980 --> 00:23:31,980 No.
359 00:23:31,980 --> 00:23:34,680 It can only defend what has already been achieved.
360 00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:38,880 And this is how Lazzarato turned against it in a way.
361 00:23:38,880 --> 00:23:44,680 What we talked about last time was a lot of this destituting power.
362 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:49,280 Negri talks about this constituting power, that it creates, that it is productive.
363 00:23:49,280 --> 00:23:54,680 The destituting power is based on the withdrawal or the attack.
364 00:23:54,680 --> 00:24:03,580 But Lazzarato has a middle ground there, where he says that war is productive, destruction is productive.
365 00:24:03,580 --> 00:24:13,580 That Schumpeter's creative destruction, that you destroy things to be able to build something new.
366 00:24:13,580 --> 00:24:23,080 Or that there is a whole economy in this, to destroy things and produce something else in its place.
367 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:23,980 Yes, exactly.
368 00:24:23,980 --> 00:24:24,580 And Lazzarato...
369 00:24:24,580 --> 00:24:24,680 Yes, exactly. And Lazzarato...
370 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:24,780 Yes, exactly. And Lazzarato...
371 00:24:24,780 --> 00:24:32,080 Lazzarato is talking about this, that with the total war and the collapse of the capital and state, of science, work and technology,
372 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:34,980 what he also calls the state and capital machine.
373 00:24:34,980 --> 00:24:39,380 So, speaking about what you're talking about with destruction, production and destruction,
374 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:45,780 he means that this old Marxist contradiction between productivity and production is overwhelming.
375 00:24:45,780 --> 00:24:49,680 He means that the productivity forces, especially during the post-war period,
376 00:24:49,680 --> 00:24:53,980 at the same time have become destructive forces, or destructive forces, as he writes.
377 00:24:53,980 --> 00:24:54,580 Yes.
378 00:24:54,580 --> 00:25:01,300 If previously there was a socialist goal to liberate the production forces from the private property, it is now impossible.
379 00:25:01,840 --> 00:25:06,740 It is not possible to separate production from destruction, because they are both at the same time.
380 00:25:07,280 --> 00:25:12,680 And even if the capitalist of the post-war period produced a lot of wealth, growth and productivity increases,
381 00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:19,220 it was at the same time an enormous destruction of the earth's environment through mining and emissions.
382 00:25:19,980 --> 00:25:24,040 And he means that the key to this can be found in the abstract work.
383 00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:32,580 Capitalism's ability to handle all activities as abstract work, and to be able to extract quantifiable value from all forms of activities,
384 00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:38,720 it undermines a total radical equality of the actual content, i.e. the value of consumption.
385 00:25:39,100 --> 00:25:44,940 I mean that work, just like money, has no scent or moral charge as long as it generates profit.
386 00:25:45,100 --> 00:25:52,820 So it can be a terribly environmental-destroying activity as long as it generates profit, so capital is equal to that, because it's just abstract work.
387 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:54,020 And it's the same with capitalism.
388 00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,740 I think we'll talk more about this later, with fascism.
389 00:25:57,740 --> 00:26:02,860 I mean that in capitalist ways of organizing work, you can also produce potential fascists,
390 00:26:03,020 --> 00:26:11,980 just like the Nazis during the Nuremberg riots, who didn't feel any kind of responsibility for participation in production.
391 00:26:12,300 --> 00:26:14,100 And in the Nazis' case, it was production and death.
392 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:19,000 But I think that today it could be production of something that is extremely environmental-destroying,
393 00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:22,340 something that leaks out into the river and kills the entire ecosystem,
394 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,040 and then you can put it back where you just did your job.
395 00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,040 Yes, it's very easy to understand with just one word.
396 00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:31,040 Time.
397 00:26:31,040 --> 00:26:33,040 Exactly.
398 00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:35,040 You can see what time has done to power.
399 00:26:35,040 --> 00:26:37,040 They haven't created anything.
400 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:41,040 They've just been sitting there for two years, destroying things.
401 00:26:41,040 --> 00:26:45,040 They've destroyed environmental legislation, they've taken away natural protection,
402 00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:51,040 they're taking away air tax, they're taking away wind power investments.
403 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,040 It's been destroyed.
404 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:54,040 But it's profitable.
405 00:26:54,040 --> 00:26:56,040 That's what they're doing.
406 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:05,040 Both in the sense that they can motivate tax cuts, but above all that they let in risk capital, welfare capital.
407 00:27:05,040 --> 00:27:08,040 They abolish the regulations for them.
408 00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:11,040 They abolish the regulations for farmers, forestry companies.
409 00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:13,040 So everything goes out and breaks down.
410 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:17,040 Everything that limits profit-making.
411 00:27:17,040 --> 00:27:19,040 Exactly. That's the only thing.
412 00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:23,040 He's also a little bit into this term, capitalocene.
413 00:27:23,040 --> 00:27:26,040 He's not talking about Anthropocene, but capitalocene.
414 00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,040 And there's really a time and an example of that as well.
415 00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:33,040 That the capitalistic provision and its simultaneous productive destructive forces
416 00:27:33,040 --> 00:27:36,040 is what causes climate change and ecological crises.
417 00:27:36,040 --> 00:27:40,040 It's not in any way human civilization in some form of another meaning
418 00:27:40,040 --> 00:27:43,040 or some kind of inherent self-destructive tendency in humans,
419 00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,040 but it's what we're talking about.
420 00:27:45,040 --> 00:27:50,040 The profit motive, the development today, is the result of a technology
421 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,040 that is based on a capitalist rationality
422 00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,040 and a production based on a ruthless profit hunt
423 00:27:55,040 --> 00:27:57,040 that becomes a form of war against nature
424 00:27:57,040 --> 00:28:02,040 that is highly conscious in order to enrich the capitalist class.
425 00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,040 So war is no longer...
426 00:28:05,040 --> 00:28:12,040 This civil war is no longer something that the capital needs to hide
427 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,040 or rather it has made it to its driving force.
428 00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:20,040 And he also takes up the central role as the military-industrial complex.
429 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:21,040 Exactly.
430 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,040 He's thinking about university research
431 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:28,040 and he's thinking about both the technical development,
432 00:28:28,040 --> 00:28:31,040 the technical machine, as he calls it,
433 00:28:31,040 --> 00:28:35,040 how it's connected to the social machine,
434 00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,040 that is, the state, society,
435 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:42,040 and becomes a war machine out of this.
436 00:28:42,040 --> 00:28:44,040 The composition that is created.
437 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:49,040 And then he sees how it's not just creative destruction
438 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:50,040 that is...
439 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,040 the central part of neoliberalism,
440 00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:57,040 to destroy in order to create something new,
441 00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,040 but also to create in order to be able to destroy.
442 00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:03,040 That so much research is being put into
443 00:29:03,040 --> 00:29:06,040 researching military systems
444 00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,040 that are supposed to be able to monitor,
445 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,040 destroy,
446 00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:14,040 and that it's a productive engine.
447 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,040 It's not possible to ignore in capitalism
448 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:19,040 how central this war production is
449 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:22,040 for production in general,
450 00:29:22,040 --> 00:29:25,040 for all forms of production.
451 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:28,040 No, he's talking about the fact that war has become
452 00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:30,040 one of the main production forces
453 00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,040 because it consists of some kind of large-scale application
454 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:34,040 of science,
455 00:29:34,040 --> 00:29:35,040 special technology,
456 00:29:35,040 --> 00:29:36,040 logistics,
457 00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:37,040 and that it's,
458 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:38,040 as we're talking about,
459 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:40,040 an extremely progressive part of capitalism
460 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:42,040 and it's a sector that is constantly expanding.
461 00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:44,040 And there, I think,
462 00:29:44,040 --> 00:29:46,040 there's another text about the global civil war
463 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:48,040 that another autonomist has written,
464 00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:49,040 Franco Berardi,
465 00:29:49,040 --> 00:29:50,040 BIFO,
466 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:51,040 which is called,
467 00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:52,040 a rather short text,
468 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:53,040 which is called
469 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:54,040 The Coming Global Civil War.
470 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:56,040 And there he's talking about the fact that
471 00:29:56,040 --> 00:29:57,040 in the current situation,
472 00:29:57,040 --> 00:29:58,040 in terms of war,
473 00:29:58,040 --> 00:30:00,040 it's not only states that are global actors,
474 00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,040 but also cartels,
475 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,040 defense companies like Blackwater,
476 00:30:03,040 --> 00:30:04,040 and terror groups like Daesh,
477 00:30:04,040 --> 00:30:06,040 and that violence as a business
478 00:30:06,040 --> 00:30:09,040 is one of the main branches of the global economy.
479 00:30:09,040 --> 00:30:12,040 And since we live in an era of financial capitalism,
480 00:30:12,040 --> 00:30:14,040 in their abstract world,
481 00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,040 no money is discriminated against,
482 00:30:16,040 --> 00:30:17,040 as I said before,
483 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:18,040 they have no smell.
484 00:30:18,040 --> 00:30:20,040 Regardless of whether they come from criminal activity,
485 00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:21,040 from dirty wars,
486 00:30:21,040 --> 00:30:22,040 or whatever it may be.
487 00:30:24,040 --> 00:30:25,040 So it's like,
488 00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:27,040 it's inherent,
489 00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:29,040 and it's also possible,
490 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,040 in this abstract world of finance.
491 00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,040 When we started talking about
492 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:35,040 the civil war,
493 00:30:35,040 --> 00:30:38,040 I got hold of an old classic
494 00:30:38,040 --> 00:30:40,040 by a German anarchist,
495 00:30:40,040 --> 00:30:42,040 Hans Magnus Ensenberger,
496 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:43,040 who left a few years ago,
497 00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,040 but he released,
498 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:46,040 I think it was 1993,
499 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:47,040 he released one called
500 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,040 The Inheritance War.
501 00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:52,040 It's like a response to Krapotkin's
502 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,040 Inheritance Help,
503 00:30:53,040 --> 00:30:55,040 M. Cecilie Hjälp,
504 00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:58,040 where he sees that
505 00:30:58,040 --> 00:31:00,040 the Inheritance War is somewhere
506 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,040 constantly present
507 00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:03,040 and can come,
508 00:31:03,040 --> 00:31:04,040 and he links it,
509 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:06,040 he writes in this
510 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,040 After the Fall of the Wall,
511 00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:09,040 where real socialism,
512 00:31:09,040 --> 00:31:11,040 but also social democracy,
513 00:31:11,040 --> 00:31:13,040 ends in a crisis,
514 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:15,040 and we get these shock doctrines
515 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:16,040 in country after country,
516 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:18,040 which try to shock
517 00:31:18,040 --> 00:31:20,040 a new liberalism,
518 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,040 and we have the Inheritance War
519 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:24,040 and reunification in
520 00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:26,040 the Forna Yugoslavia,
521 00:31:26,040 --> 00:31:28,040 we have pogroms in Germany,
522 00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:30,040 and then he formulates this
523 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,040 about the Inheritance War,
524 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:34,040 where he talks about
525 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,040 the molecular Inheritance War,
526 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,040 that you turn to Hobbes,
527 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:41,040 where the Inheritance War is everywhere,
528 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:42,040 and then comes the sovereign,
529 00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,040 and he sees it rather as this,
530 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:46,040 when society breaks,
531 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040 when this social peace,
532 00:31:49,040 --> 00:31:51,040 that social democracy,
533 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,040 welfare state,
534 00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,040 still stood for,
535 00:31:54,040 --> 00:31:56,040 that it still offered
536 00:31:56,040 --> 00:31:59,040 some form of class compromise,
537 00:31:59,040 --> 00:32:00,040 negotiations,
538 00:32:00,040 --> 00:32:02,040 Saltsjö bath agreements,
539 00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:03,040 collective agreements,
540 00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:04,040 the Swedish model,
541 00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,040 social engineering,
542 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:08,040 it was somewhere that
543 00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:10,040 everyone will get it better
544 00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,040 if you join Lida,
545 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,040 Volvo, Wallenberg, Gyllenhammar,
546 00:32:16,040 --> 00:32:18,040 so let them manage,
547 00:32:18,040 --> 00:32:21,040 divide their production,
548 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,040 make their profits,
549 00:32:23,040 --> 00:32:24,040 then this will come.
550 00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,040 What is good for Volvo is good for Sweden.
551 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,040 Yes, and productivity will increase,
552 00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:30,040 and then it will also be good for the workers,
553 00:32:30,040 --> 00:32:33,040 and when the social deal has fallen,
554 00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:35,040 that it exists,
555 00:32:35,040 --> 00:32:39,040 then the breaking of the welfare state also falls,
556 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,040 then he says that this
557 00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,040 molecular Inheritance War can start
558 00:32:43,040 --> 00:32:45,040 from anywhere in society,
559 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:47,040 what breaks out in Yugoslavia,
560 00:32:47,040 --> 00:32:49,040 that it does not have to be something
561 00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:51,040 that comes from outside,
562 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,040 it has broken out in the metropolises
563 00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:55,040 and has been going on for a long time,
564 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:57,040 he says that he sees it
565 00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,040 in everything from gang wars
566 00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:01,040 to football supporters fighting,
567 00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:03,040 or insecurity on the streets,
568 00:33:03,040 --> 00:33:05,040 or clots on the subway,
569 00:33:05,040 --> 00:33:07,040 so he finds these tracks,
570 00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,040 just like Krapotkin goes around
571 00:33:09,040 --> 00:33:11,040 and tracks the help of immigrants,
572 00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:13,040 the people who help each other,
573 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:15,040 then he sees these tracks,
574 00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,040 these signs,
575 00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:19,040 that now it breaks out,
576 00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,040 that this Inheritance War
577 00:33:21,040 --> 00:33:23,040 does not come from outside,
578 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,040 it is not a virus
579 00:33:25,040 --> 00:33:27,040 that someone has to bring home,
580 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,040 but it is something,
581 00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,040 it is a process that goes on,
582 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,040 and it is always a minority
583 00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,040 somewhere that starts it,
584 00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:37,040 and starts it,
585 00:33:37,040 --> 00:33:39,040 and then it gets spread
586 00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:41,040 in society,
587 00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,040 so he sees it as a kind of
588 00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,040 social virus,
589 00:33:45,040 --> 00:33:47,040 that it differs from the 30's,
590 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,040 he means that rituals,
591 00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:51,040 parades, uniforms,
592 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:53,040 programs and promises
593 00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,040 were needed,
594 00:33:55,040 --> 00:33:57,040 but it does not need this new,
595 00:33:57,040 --> 00:33:59,040 so that is his way of thinking,
596 00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,040 this collapse after welfare,
597 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,040 and it feels like,
598 00:34:03,040 --> 00:34:05,040 yes, he did not get it right then,
599 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,040 but to read this 30 years later,
600 00:34:07,040 --> 00:34:09,040 and compare it with
601 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:11,040 the social panic that is
602 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,040 around everything from
603 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:15,040 the upheaval in Great Britain
604 00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:17,040 to how the right describes
605 00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:19,040 the suburbs,
606 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,040 or the Easter upheaval,
607 00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:23,040 so he has this
608 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:25,040 idea that
609 00:34:25,040 --> 00:34:27,040 the Inheritance War is so close,
610 00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:29,040 it has become central
611 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:31,040 throughout the project
612 00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,040 somewhere,
613 00:34:33,040 --> 00:34:35,040 and they have no new social peace,
614 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,040 they have no solution to it,
615 00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:39,040 because it is essential for their capitalism,
616 00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,040 it is essential,
617 00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,040 and the only thing they can solve it with
618 00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,040 is to
619 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:47,040 face the Inheritance War
620 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,040 with a total war back,
621 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:51,040 to take
622 00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:53,040 gas to every
623 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,040 suburb,
624 00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:57,040 to throw out, close the borders,
625 00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:59,040 shoot away,
626 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:01,040 burrow in,
627 00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,040 enter and remove zones,
628 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,040 surveillance zones,
629 00:35:05,040 --> 00:35:07,040 increased control,
630 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:09,040 there are no other ways for them
631 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:11,040 to handle this
632 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,040 Inheritance War,
633 00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:15,040 that is happening.
634 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,040 No, and there you can say that
635 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,040 when Elon Musk wrote that
636 00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:21,040 the Inheritance War is inevitable,
637 00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,040 it is inevitable because
638 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,040 from the perspective of the capital
639 00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:27,040 it is inevitable,
640 00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,040 and it is they who initiate it,
641 00:35:29,040 --> 00:35:31,040 and there I think of
642 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,040 what Lazzarato writes about fascism,
643 00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,040 I think he has a very interesting
644 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,040 fascist analysis,
645 00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:39,040 and here I mean that
646 00:35:39,040 --> 00:35:41,040 since the great financial crisis of 2008,
647 00:35:41,040 --> 00:35:43,040 the state of permanent instability,
648 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:45,040 which you talked a lot about
649 00:35:45,040 --> 00:35:47,040 in this episode of the war regime
650 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:49,040 with these collaborations in the crisis,
651 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,040 he means that globalization
652 00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:53,040 has only been able to produce an identitarian logic,
653 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:55,040 and that is due to the fact that
654 00:35:55,040 --> 00:35:57,040 the capital, after this financial crisis,
655 00:35:57,040 --> 00:35:59,040 needed protection from the state,
656 00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:01,040 and the state in turn can only get its share
657 00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:03,040 of different identities through nationalism,
658 00:36:03,040 --> 00:36:05,040 fascism, racism and sexism,
659 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,040 but he also means that
660 00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:09,040 things like the Arab Spring of 2011,
661 00:36:09,040 --> 00:36:11,040 the uprising in Brazil in 2013,
662 00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:13,040 and Greece in 2015,
663 00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:15,040 that this deepens the debt crisis,
664 00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,040 but also that there arose some form of conflict-oriented subjectivity,
665 00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,040 and which in some way pointed
666 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,040 towards the possibility of a crime
667 00:36:21,040 --> 00:36:23,040 with the capitalist order,
668 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,040 and even if these different movements
669 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:27,040 in the different countries were hardly system-threatening,
670 00:36:27,040 --> 00:36:29,040 the capitalist class was still so angry
671 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,040 that they started to play out
672 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:33,040 these cards that they have,
673 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,040 as we have talked about,
674 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,040 neo-fascism, racism, sexism,
675 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:39,040 war rhetoric, and that racism
676 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:41,040 became one of the most important tools
677 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,040 to strategically lead this war against the population.
678 00:36:43,040 --> 00:36:45,040 What he says,
679 00:36:45,040 --> 00:36:47,040 which I had not thought of before,
680 00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,040 is that he means that the historical fascism
681 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:51,040 in some way, then,
682 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:53,040 produced the total war,
683 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:55,040 but the fascism that is growing now
684 00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:57,040 is rather a way to lead war against the population,
685 00:36:57,040 --> 00:36:59,040 according to the logic of civil war.
686 00:36:59,040 --> 00:37:01,040 And this can take
687 00:37:01,040 --> 00:37:03,040 a number of different expressions,
688 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,040 this newly born fascism,
689 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,040 he means that it can be mistakenly called
690 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,040 right-wing populism or right-wing extremism,
691 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,040 but what is the red thread is that
692 00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,040 it is national liberalism
693 00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:15,040 and not national socialism.
694 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,040 Now, when the fascists do not need
695 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:19,040 to relate to any form of organized revolutionary left,
696 00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,040 then you do not need to take
697 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,040 into account the working class
698 00:37:23,040 --> 00:37:25,040 socio-economic demands in that way,
699 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:27,040 but in its core,
700 00:37:27,040 --> 00:37:29,040 it is neoliberal.
701 00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:31,040 So it can not offer any welfare
702 00:37:31,040 --> 00:37:33,040 as, for example, Nazi Germany
703 00:37:33,040 --> 00:37:35,040 could do for its white citizens,
704 00:37:35,040 --> 00:37:37,040 but the only thing it can offer
705 00:37:37,040 --> 00:37:39,040 is some kind of illusory national self-confidence,
706 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:41,040 some kind of poisonous,
707 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,040 substance-less collectivity
708 00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,040 that you could not see there in England during the uprising.
709 00:37:45,040 --> 00:37:47,040 But the most important thing they do,
710 00:37:47,040 --> 00:37:49,040 he means, is that they subordinate
711 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:51,040 the relationship between the ruling and the ruling,
712 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,040 the owner and the non-owner,
713 00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,040 to a kind of civil war
714 00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:57,040 based on an enemy-friend logic.
715 00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,040 And the fascists clearly see the stranger,
716 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:01,040 the migrant, the refugee, the Muslim,
717 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:03,040 as both the internal and the external enemy.
718 00:38:03,040 --> 00:38:05,040 But in the same way they fight
719 00:38:05,040 --> 00:38:07,040 at least as hard to maintain heterosexuality
720 00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,040 in the fight against
721 00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:11,040 the LGBTQI movement
722 00:38:11,040 --> 00:38:13,040 or maintain the patriarchy.
723 00:38:13,040 --> 00:38:15,040 So, in other words, it is both
724 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,040 a kind of dedicated national community
725 00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,040 but also a front
726 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:21,040 that you fight against
727 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:23,040 enemies that in some way threaten
728 00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,040 this fictitious, fictitious, popular unit.
729 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,040 And then it is, as I mentioned,
730 00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:29,040 the Muslims, the LGBTQI movement,
731 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,040 the feminists and the cultural marxists.
732 00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,040 And all this, it fits the capital
733 00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:35,040 that is in the glove, because there is
734 00:38:35,040 --> 00:38:37,040 a structural demand
735 00:38:37,040 --> 00:38:39,040 to point out someone for the misery of neoliberalism.
736 00:38:39,040 --> 00:38:41,040 And they will not do anything about it.
737 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,040 And what he also raises is that
738 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:45,040 we do not own anything today.
739 00:38:45,040 --> 00:38:47,040 We are still a proletariat.
740 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:49,040 We have debts to the bank
741 00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:51,040 if we own anything.
742 00:38:51,040 --> 00:38:53,040 But the only thing
743 00:38:53,040 --> 00:38:55,040 that we own
744 00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,040 in a nationalist
745 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,040 opinion
746 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:01,040 is to be Swedish.
747 00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:03,040 To feel that we own
748 00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,040 the right to this country.
749 00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:07,040 And it is a very abstract right.
750 00:39:07,040 --> 00:39:09,040 What does it mean to have the right
751 00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,040 to this country?
752 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,040 Because you can not buy and sell
753 00:39:13,040 --> 00:39:15,040 this country.
754 00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,040 There is no such thing as the right to this country.
755 00:39:17,040 --> 00:39:19,040 But there is still a notion
756 00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:21,040 among people that
757 00:39:21,040 --> 00:39:23,040 when people come here
758 00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:25,040 their right to this country
759 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:27,040 is taken away from people
760 00:39:27,040 --> 00:39:29,040 who they consider not to have the right
761 00:39:29,040 --> 00:39:31,040 to this country.
762 00:39:31,040 --> 00:39:33,040 It is a very abstract threat
763 00:39:33,040 --> 00:39:35,040 what it is that is threatened.
764 00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,040 What it is for property
765 00:39:37,040 --> 00:39:39,040 to be taken away from people
766 00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:41,040 or the property
767 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,040 that gives them
768 00:39:43,040 --> 00:39:45,040 a sense of self-esteem
769 00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,040 and a sense of value.
770 00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:49,040 That whatever they are
771 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:51,040 they may not own their house
772 00:39:51,040 --> 00:39:53,040 they may not own their car
773 00:39:53,040 --> 00:39:55,040 they may not be able to
774 00:39:55,040 --> 00:39:57,040 have an economic career
775 00:39:57,040 --> 00:39:59,040 but they at least
776 00:39:59,040 --> 00:40:01,040 have the right to the country.
777 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,040 They have a national identity.
778 00:40:03,040 --> 00:40:05,040 We are Sweden.
779 00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,040 This is our country.
780 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:11,040 That is a very abstract remark.
781 00:40:11,040 --> 00:40:13,040 But you wrote a good idea
782 00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,040 about the racist upheaval
783 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:17,040 in England in the evening.
784 00:40:17,040 --> 00:40:19,040 The upheaval was concentrated
785 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:21,040 in working places in northern England.
786 00:40:21,040 --> 00:40:23,040 The area is deindustrialized
787 00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:25,040 and populated with high unemployment.
788 00:40:25,040 --> 00:40:27,040 But the refugee reception
789 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:29,040 is very low.
790 00:40:29,040 --> 00:40:31,040 The migrants who come to England
791 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,040 they mainly end up in
792 00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,040 the metropolitan areas of southern England.
793 00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:37,040 And then I thought that it is
794 00:40:37,040 --> 00:40:41,040 affections that are connected to this neoliberal destruction of the society,
795 00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:44,040 with frustration, hatred, anxiety and fear,
796 00:40:44,780 --> 00:40:48,080 that got its burning spark in this terrible knife-throwing in Southport,
797 00:40:48,500 --> 00:40:52,220 and that via the extreme right and its information and hate rhetoric
798 00:40:52,220 --> 00:40:55,500 linked up with some form of fascist enemy-friend logic,
799 00:40:55,500 --> 00:40:59,360 where you suddenly saw racists and refugees being portrayed as enemies.
800 00:41:00,220 --> 00:41:02,880 And this didn't come from a state-controlled heaven directly,
801 00:41:02,940 --> 00:41:05,440 but both politicians and the right-wing media in England.
802 00:41:05,440 --> 00:41:08,140 I've seen a lot of run-throughs from Daily Mail,
803 00:41:08,540 --> 00:41:10,160 that really, as an example,
804 00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:14,440 that have completely underblown these racist approaches,
805 00:41:15,260 --> 00:41:17,720 with war rhetoric about how much migrants cost,
806 00:41:17,900 --> 00:41:18,920 how they vote within the border,
807 00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:20,980 and cause violence and sell jobs,
808 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:22,560 and that you have paroles like Stop the Boat,
809 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:24,060 and have really pissed this off.
810 00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:29,980 So it's really just a logical follow-up of what's already happened,
811 00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:31,800 and the rhetoric that's already been used,
812 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:33,800 but that took a step further.
813 00:41:42,230 --> 00:41:44,530 Some others who use this term,
814 00:41:45,730 --> 00:41:46,490 the Inheritance War,
815 00:41:46,650 --> 00:41:48,470 is also the Ticone,
816 00:41:48,910 --> 00:41:50,650 the French group,
817 00:41:51,110 --> 00:41:53,790 who this podcast always hooks into.
818 00:41:54,970 --> 00:41:56,890 Soon I'll be done with all their books,
819 00:41:57,070 --> 00:41:58,550 then I'll never need to mention them again.
820 00:41:58,550 --> 00:42:02,850 No, but they have a script that's called
821 00:42:02,850 --> 00:42:05,290 Introduction to the Inheritance War,
822 00:42:05,730 --> 00:42:07,390 which came in 2001,
823 00:42:07,590 --> 00:42:10,610 and then you have George Agamben,
824 00:42:10,810 --> 00:42:12,070 who is a bit learned,
825 00:42:12,230 --> 00:42:15,730 and he's also written one about Stasis,
826 00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:20,090 which is this term for the Inheritance War in ancient Greece,
827 00:42:20,370 --> 00:42:22,970 in the city of Polis,
828 00:42:23,970 --> 00:42:27,270 when different families got into a fight with each other,
829 00:42:27,270 --> 00:42:34,550 that there was a way to regulate how these conflicts would occur,
830 00:42:34,730 --> 00:42:35,270 that Stasis,
831 00:42:36,010 --> 00:42:39,010 and he developed a theory about Inheritance War there.
832 00:42:39,810 --> 00:42:42,210 They say a little, just like Hannah Arendt,
833 00:42:42,230 --> 00:42:47,290 they say that there are a lot of theories about war,
834 00:42:47,490 --> 00:42:48,370 what is war,
835 00:42:48,550 --> 00:42:49,950 how should a war be conducted,
836 00:42:50,170 --> 00:42:52,310 what is a just war,
837 00:42:52,510 --> 00:42:53,870 and what is an unjust war,
838 00:42:53,870 --> 00:42:59,070 but there are no theories about what the Inheritance War is,
839 00:42:59,770 --> 00:43:03,150 what the border between Inheritance War and revolution is.
840 00:43:03,770 --> 00:43:09,810 But they have a completely different description of the Inheritance War.
841 00:43:11,070 --> 00:43:11,870 Yes, they almost turn around.
842 00:43:11,870 --> 00:43:11,910 Yes, they almost turn around.
843 00:43:11,910 --> 00:43:11,950 Yes, they almost turn around.
844 00:43:11,950 --> 00:43:12,010 Yes, they almost turn around.
845 00:43:12,010 --> 00:43:12,190 Yes, they almost turn around.
846 00:43:12,190 --> 00:43:13,050 It's almost like a Palazzo Arrato,
847 00:43:13,190 --> 00:43:16,270 but they mean that the Inheritance War,
848 00:43:16,630 --> 00:43:19,570 they see it as a form of basic condition,
849 00:43:19,990 --> 00:43:22,970 or something that happens on an existential level,
850 00:43:23,230 --> 00:43:25,070 and that the modern state is a reaction to.
851 00:43:25,570 --> 00:43:26,470 And with Inheritance War,
852 00:43:26,630 --> 00:43:29,010 they mean, on the part of the Agamben,
853 00:43:29,050 --> 00:43:29,830 this with lifestyles,
854 00:43:29,950 --> 00:43:31,690 a sort of free collaboration with lifestyles,
855 00:43:32,350 --> 00:43:34,050 where there is intensity,
856 00:43:34,330 --> 00:43:34,630 charging,
857 00:43:34,730 --> 00:43:35,590 political conflicts,
858 00:43:35,810 --> 00:43:36,550 confrontations,
859 00:43:36,830 --> 00:43:38,330 but also there can be war,
860 00:43:38,630 --> 00:43:38,970 violence,
861 00:43:39,090 --> 00:43:39,710 and Inheritance War,
862 00:43:40,070 --> 00:43:41,710 and that this collaboration,
863 00:43:41,710 --> 00:44:08,910 It's going to be a civil war because there are no separations between men, women, civilians and the military, and that the state, for an unnecessary war against the civil war, to passivize it, to recanalize and passivize as soon as these political antagonisms are raised in some way, the police are connected and all kinds of intensity, irregularities, unmanned opportunities, loading, everything has to be fought.
864 00:44:08,910 --> 00:44:26,110 So there is this basic idea that there is a constant contradiction, but they almost see something positive in this contradiction, that when different groups are formed, and they never talk about identities,
865 00:44:26,110 --> 00:44:37,950 but it's not that it's about this group of beggars who stand against this group of motorcycle gangs, but rather different ways of living, ways of living, ways of being,
866 00:44:37,950 --> 00:44:54,270 ways of doing things and being in each other, when they meet other ways of doing things, other ways of being, there is a friction between them, and those frictions are just as it says, that's what they describe as civil war.
867 00:44:54,270 --> 00:45:07,310 And civil war sounds so much worse in many ways in Swedish than what civil war sounds like, because it's just that it's civil, or conflicts in civil society,
868 00:45:07,310 --> 00:45:18,110 or within social tensions, and that those tensions have to be unloaded somewhere or unloaded away in different ways.
869 00:45:18,110 --> 00:45:28,430 Yes, precisely because the state should not lose control. And you can see, for example, how the political antagonism in Sweden can be reduced to compromises on the labor market,
870 00:45:28,430 --> 00:45:35,150 as we said in the early 2000s, instead of replacing or passivizing wild strikes or something like that.
871 00:45:35,150 --> 00:45:41,870 Another example of that, on the capital side, is Spotify, which became a form of passivizing and man-hunting the whole aislaminits movement,
872 00:45:41,870 --> 00:45:47,630 and the convenience of taking music into an app, and by far was the shelf life for Sebastopol.
873 00:45:47,630 --> 00:45:49,710 And then they got to pay for it instead.
874 00:45:49,710 --> 00:45:54,830 They have a description here about de Nevada life, how to meet a friend.
875 00:45:54,830 --> 00:46:03,870 To meet someone you share your life with. It's a meeting for someone who is already aware that their power is growing.
876 00:46:03,870 --> 00:46:04,430 Yes.
877 00:46:04,430 --> 00:46:05,030 And their power. When that power is growing.
878 00:46:05,030 --> 00:46:07,030 If someone grows, my power grows.
879 00:46:07,030 --> 00:46:11,030 We build our strength just by being together.
880 00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:18,030 While to meet another life form is to meet someone that you feel that this is...
881 00:46:18,030 --> 00:46:21,030 When my power grows, the other's weakens.
882 00:46:21,030 --> 00:46:24,030 Or when theirs grows, mine weakens.
883 00:46:24,030 --> 00:46:26,030 If we have both...
884 00:46:26,030 --> 00:46:30,030 If we have Nazis on the street, we know that there will be fewer burglars,
885 00:46:30,030 --> 00:46:34,030 and Muslims and left-wing groups on our streets.
886 00:46:34,030 --> 00:46:39,030 But if there are burglars, flaters, Muslims and left-wing groups on the street,
887 00:46:39,030 --> 00:46:48,030 we know that we might all strengthen each other in the sense that we take the streets together.
888 00:46:48,030 --> 00:46:50,030 Now that was very identity-based.
889 00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:56,030 Yes, but that's what it is with the life form that Agamben is referring to.
890 00:46:56,030 --> 00:47:02,030 What they mean is that life cannot be separated from its execution in any way.
891 00:47:02,030 --> 00:47:04,030 To live cannot...
892 00:47:04,030 --> 00:47:07,030 In any way be reduced to facts or identity,
893 00:47:07,030 --> 00:47:10,030 but as you mentioned, it's about opportunities to live in different ways.
894 00:47:10,030 --> 00:47:15,030 About power, and that the life form does not relate to what I am as a form of identity,
895 00:47:15,030 --> 00:47:18,030 but to how I am what I am.
896 00:47:18,030 --> 00:47:25,030 And that's an interesting take, because they don't talk so much about class,
897 00:47:25,030 --> 00:47:27,030 they talk a lot about life forms.
898 00:47:27,030 --> 00:47:31,030 And they don't even talk about revolutions...
899 00:47:31,030 --> 00:47:32,030 So it's a bit interesting that they say that...
900 00:47:32,030 --> 00:47:40,130 that they say that I call communism the real movement that develops the civil war everywhere and at every moment.
901 00:47:40,130 --> 00:47:42,530 Yes, exactly. And it sounds very rough.
902 00:47:42,790 --> 00:47:52,450 Yes, it's this Marx paraphrase that communism is the real movement that undermines the state of things in capitalism.
903 00:47:52,450 --> 00:48:06,270 And that's what Lazzarato also points out. When he tries to see why the revolution, why we have to think about the revolution, he uses the revolution as the real movement.
904 00:48:06,270 --> 00:48:20,750 They relate to the same way of thinking, only one calls it civil war and the other calls it revolution, without clearly defining why they choose different terms in it.
905 00:48:20,750 --> 00:48:22,350 But Lazzarato is also on that.
906 00:48:22,350 --> 00:48:22,430 Yes. But Lazzarato is also on that.
907 00:48:22,430 --> 00:48:31,450 In the end of that book, Capital Hates Everyone, he comes to that with, he means that many political movements after 1968 have divided up revolution from revolutionary becoming.
908 00:48:32,170 --> 00:48:44,170 And this revolutionary becoming, which among other things Tikkun can be seen as a representative of, is more like a critique and subjugation, another production of subjectivity, autonomy, different life forms of independence that we're talking about, or the self and the self.
909 00:48:44,170 --> 00:48:52,330 That it differed from revolution, which Lazzarato defines more as a radical change of self-government, a fight for political power, these classic ideas.
910 00:48:52,330 --> 00:48:55,830 He says that we should expropriate, expropriates, 크리ה תאו we should expropriate, expropriates, overlaps capitalism.
911 00:48:55,830 --> 00:48:59,970 And he said that this is the opposite of the difference between liberation and revolution.
912 00:48:59,970 --> 00:49:07,570 The first is the exit or withdrawal of various communities from the subordination that capitalism puts them in.
913 00:49:07,570 --> 00:49:12,970 And he said that the example that the queer movement and the feminist movement fought for it.
914 00:49:12,970 --> 00:49:17,970 Whereas the other, the revolution, means some kind of exit or overriding of capitalism itself.
915 00:49:17,970 --> 00:49:21,510 And there he gives the example of slavery.
916 00:49:21,510 --> 00:49:22,190 And there it was very clear that the revolution alone, or the пятnation of capitalism itself, is its true這是其ו.
917 00:49:22,190 --> 00:49:24,770 that a policy based on liberation,
918 00:49:24,930 --> 00:49:27,030 that is, to free oneself from slavery,
919 00:49:27,470 --> 00:49:30,130 instead went over in a different form of racist segregation.
920 00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:35,310 He means that instead it would have been better with a revolution.
921 00:49:35,830 --> 00:49:39,670 And he doesn't mean that he completely abandons this with the revolutionary becoming.
922 00:49:40,350 --> 00:49:41,970 He means that both of these parts are needed
923 00:49:41,970 --> 00:49:44,910 and that they both would become weaker without the other.
924 00:49:45,270 --> 00:49:49,910 But at the same time, he still has a critical undertones
925 00:49:49,910 --> 00:49:54,090 against these post-1968 theorists and movements,
926 00:49:54,350 --> 00:49:59,890 because he means that there is also a limit for what theory can achieve.
927 00:50:00,690 --> 00:50:03,890 And there he takes the help of the German Marxist Hans-Jürgen Kral,
928 00:50:03,970 --> 00:50:07,350 who says that revolutionary theory is not the same thing as a theory on revolution.
929 00:50:08,290 --> 00:50:12,250 That is, that a revolutionary theory blots out different power relations in society,
930 00:50:12,910 --> 00:50:17,470 while a theory on revolution includes specific strategic principles.
931 00:50:17,970 --> 00:50:19,890 And that, he means, is a suggestion.
932 00:50:20,310 --> 00:50:21,630 And that, he means, is a suggestion.
933 00:50:21,630 --> 00:50:22,390 And that, he means, is a suggestion.
934 00:50:22,390 --> 00:50:22,990 And that, he means, is a suggestion.
935 00:50:22,990 --> 00:50:23,390 And that, he means, is a suggestion.
936 00:50:23,390 --> 00:50:23,730 And that, he means, is a suggestion.
937 00:50:23,730 --> 00:50:28,410 So he doesn't come up with a recipe for how to organize himself.
938 00:50:28,830 --> 00:50:32,070 It's a bit like that tone that this book ends with.
939 00:50:32,370 --> 00:50:39,150 He goes through, he has a very autonomous view of Lenin and the Russian revolution,
940 00:50:39,510 --> 00:50:44,750 where you don't say that it was wrong and we should do it in a different way,
941 00:50:44,850 --> 00:50:46,750 but you say that it was right then,
942 00:50:47,310 --> 00:50:49,690 but it can't be lifted up,
943 00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:50,410 to today.
944 00:50:50,550 --> 00:50:51,190 We can't,
945 00:50:51,770 --> 00:50:53,870 their laws can't be used today.
946 00:50:54,290 --> 00:50:56,050 For Lenin,
947 00:50:56,430 --> 00:51:00,090 several Russian revolutions happened,
948 00:51:00,910 --> 00:51:03,970 1905 and then it came to 1917,
949 00:51:04,210 --> 00:51:07,810 but what Lenin was able to burnt out,
950 00:51:07,910 --> 00:51:10,690 was an organization form,
951 00:51:11,150 --> 00:51:12,870 that was strictly continuous,
952 00:51:13,130 --> 00:51:15,410 it was based on the factory,
953 00:51:15,590 --> 00:51:16,630 on the factory work,
954 00:51:16,870 --> 00:51:19,370 but also on the hierarchical structure,
955 00:51:19,410 --> 00:51:19,730 the structure,
956 00:51:19,730 --> 00:51:21,710 the factory meant, so that
957 00:51:21,710 --> 00:51:23,990 they took the organization
958 00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:25,430 form of the factory, they took the
959 00:51:25,430 --> 00:51:27,330 subject that it created
960 00:51:27,330 --> 00:51:29,870 and used it for
961 00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:31,830 creating a hegemony and control
962 00:51:31,830 --> 00:51:33,550 over the entire
963 00:51:33,550 --> 00:51:35,650 broad social revolution that
964 00:51:35,650 --> 00:51:37,050 took place in Russia with
965 00:51:37,050 --> 00:51:39,710 soldiers' council and workers' council and
966 00:51:39,710 --> 00:51:41,290 bond council and
967 00:51:41,290 --> 00:51:43,350 bond movements and
968 00:51:43,350 --> 00:51:45,430 made sure to give it
969 00:51:45,430 --> 00:51:47,730 leadership and get it
970 00:51:47,730 --> 00:51:50,010 that they took
971 00:51:50,010 --> 00:51:51,130 and used this
972 00:51:51,130 --> 00:51:53,570 structure to grasp
973 00:51:53,570 --> 00:51:55,630 power and use power.
974 00:51:56,570 --> 00:51:57,250 And there he says,
975 00:51:57,630 --> 00:51:59,950 but today we can't
976 00:51:59,950 --> 00:52:02,030 copy or use
977 00:52:02,030 --> 00:52:03,610 that factory organization
978 00:52:03,610 --> 00:52:05,750 because that's not how production
979 00:52:05,750 --> 00:52:08,130 looks like today.
980 00:52:08,130 --> 00:52:09,570 We don't have that
981 00:52:09,570 --> 00:52:11,250 working subject, that
982 00:52:11,250 --> 00:52:13,090 professional professional
983 00:52:13,090 --> 00:52:15,430 worker who had a great control
984 00:52:15,430 --> 00:52:16,850 over production. Today we have
985 00:52:16,850 --> 00:52:17,710 a
986 00:52:17,730 --> 00:52:20,870 more widespread mass worker
987 00:52:20,870 --> 00:52:22,590 or a social worker
988 00:52:22,590 --> 00:52:24,970 who is very heterogeneous
989 00:52:24,970 --> 00:52:26,330 and differentiated.
990 00:52:26,810 --> 00:52:28,730 It's just to talk to
991 00:52:28,730 --> 00:52:30,850 your 20 closest friends
992 00:52:30,850 --> 00:52:32,450 and see that you will have very different
993 00:52:32,450 --> 00:52:34,650 work tasks and different relations
994 00:52:34,650 --> 00:52:36,430 to the boss and a number of colleagues
995 00:52:36,430 --> 00:52:37,970 and working hours.
996 00:52:38,310 --> 00:52:40,090 You will not find a
997 00:52:40,090 --> 00:52:42,510 homogeneous structure
998 00:52:42,510 --> 00:52:44,590 in your experience there, but you
999 00:52:44,590 --> 00:52:47,030 will see that there are
1000 00:52:47,030 --> 00:52:47,710 similarities.
1001 00:52:47,710 --> 00:52:49,430 We have to go and
1002 00:52:49,430 --> 00:52:51,190 work for a salary.
1003 00:52:51,190 --> 00:52:52,830 We have to listen to someone else.
1004 00:52:52,830 --> 00:52:54,750 But how the work is
1005 00:52:54,750 --> 00:52:56,670 formed, what you have for
1006 00:52:56,670 --> 00:52:57,950 production means, how you
1007 00:52:57,950 --> 00:52:59,550 control them, if you work
1008 00:52:59,550 --> 00:53:00,870 at home, if you work there,
1009 00:53:00,870 --> 00:53:03,150 if you have to go to work,
1010 00:53:03,150 --> 00:53:05,190 if you how freely you can
1011 00:53:05,190 --> 00:53:06,750 dispose of time, all of that
1012 00:53:06,750 --> 00:53:08,150 will look different.
1013 00:53:08,150 --> 00:53:10,350 So it requires another
1014 00:53:10,350 --> 00:53:11,350 form of organization.
1015 00:53:11,350 --> 00:53:13,510 And then he looks at
1016 00:53:13,510 --> 00:53:16,030 post-colonial, anti-colonial
1017 00:53:16,030 --> 00:53:17,550 movements. He lifts Fanhon.
1018 00:53:17,550 --> 00:53:19,750 He takes up the feminist
1019 00:53:19,750 --> 00:53:21,630 struggle and takes up
1020 00:53:21,630 --> 00:53:23,990 Revolta Femminile
1021 00:53:23,990 --> 00:53:26,310 in Italy and sees
1022 00:53:26,310 --> 00:53:27,470 that none of these movements'
1023 00:53:27,990 --> 00:53:29,810 goal was any longer to take
1024 00:53:29,810 --> 00:53:30,430 power.
1025 00:53:31,570 --> 00:53:33,830 To take power, there was not
1026 00:53:33,830 --> 00:53:35,830 a solution for the problem they wanted
1027 00:53:35,830 --> 00:53:37,830 to achieve. To put a female
1028 00:53:37,830 --> 00:53:39,770 vice minister, prime minister or
1029 00:53:39,770 --> 00:53:42,070 judge had not solved
1030 00:53:42,070 --> 00:53:42,910 the problem of the feminist movement.
1031 00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:45,710 And to just get a
1032 00:53:45,710 --> 00:53:47,390 colonial representation
1033 00:53:47,550 --> 00:53:49,950 in the parliament of France and
1034 00:53:49,950 --> 00:53:51,630 England had not solved the
1035 00:53:51,630 --> 00:53:52,990 colonial movements.
1036 00:53:52,990 --> 00:53:54,630 Rather, they needed to
1037 00:53:54,630 --> 00:53:57,690 expel power, pivot,
1038 00:53:57,690 --> 00:54:00,150 disconnect from that structure,
1039 00:54:00,150 --> 00:54:01,690 to link up, to de-link,
1040 00:54:01,690 --> 00:54:06,510 to decolonize their movements,
1041 00:54:06,510 --> 00:54:08,470 to de-patriarchalize them
1042 00:54:08,470 --> 00:54:11,270 as a part of their struggle.
1043 00:54:11,270 --> 00:54:14,250 There he sees that this is more
1044 00:54:14,250 --> 00:54:17,150 to learn for the labor struggle.
1045 00:54:17,150 --> 00:54:21,150 How do you think about the revolution today?
1046 00:54:21,150 --> 00:54:31,150 Yes, because I think that Lazzarato, as we mentioned in the beginning, unites the best from the negative.
1047 00:54:31,150 --> 00:54:38,150 As you mentioned, the analysis of class composition and the new forms of capitalism, how the work looks.
1048 00:54:38,150 --> 00:54:43,150 Combine that with the best of the invisible committee and Marcello Tarri.
1049 00:54:43,150 --> 00:54:49,150 This restricting perspective and this very uncompromising criticism of the world of capitalism.
1050 00:54:49,150 --> 00:54:52,150 But at the same time, he avoids the great weaknesses.
1051 00:54:52,150 --> 00:54:58,150 In the case of Negri, this view of the multitude as an immanent, productive and potentially autonomous.
1052 00:54:58,150 --> 00:55:01,150 Where the capital is reduced to some kind of parasite.
1053 00:55:01,150 --> 00:55:07,150 And in the case of the invisible committee and Tarri, their unwillingness to use class composition,
1054 00:55:07,150 --> 00:55:11,150 which I think makes their analysis of capitalism quite hollow and hanging in the air, at least.
1055 00:55:11,150 --> 00:55:13,150 Because they don't really have a real fundament.
1056 00:55:13,150 --> 00:55:16,150 And I think that Lazzarato avoids both of these gaps.
1057 00:55:16,150 --> 00:55:21,150 His take on the destitute potential is something I will come back to.
1058 00:55:21,150 --> 00:55:24,150 It's the revolutionary rupture. I don't really know the best translation.
1059 00:55:24,150 --> 00:55:27,150 A crime with capitalism. A breaking point.
1060 00:55:27,150 --> 00:55:32,150 You have to somehow commit a crime with capitalism.
1061 00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:36,150 There are no tendencies that can only continue and then become some kind of...
1062 00:55:36,150 --> 00:55:41,150 Like Negri, that you somehow have to deal with the capital as a parasite.
1063 00:55:41,150 --> 00:55:43,150 But that communism somehow has an inherent in it.
1064 00:55:43,150 --> 00:55:48,150 In the multitude's collaboration and in their creativity.
1065 00:55:48,150 --> 00:55:53,150 He is very clear about the fact that this state-capital machine...
1066 00:55:53,150 --> 00:55:55,150 There is no political autonomy.
1067 00:55:55,150 --> 00:55:58,150 He denies completely left-wing populism, for example.
1068 00:55:58,150 --> 00:56:01,150 He means that there is no room for that.
1069 00:56:01,150 --> 00:56:04,150 He calls neoliberalism an anti-reformism.
1070 00:56:04,150 --> 00:56:06,150 There is nothing to negotiate anymore.
1071 00:56:06,150 --> 00:56:07,150 No.
1072 00:56:07,150 --> 00:56:08,150 No.
1073 00:56:08,150 --> 00:56:10,150 And that's what you have to see with Tide.
1074 00:56:10,150 --> 00:56:12,150 What is there to negotiate with them?
1075 00:56:12,150 --> 00:56:15,150 They don't have an interest.
1076 00:56:15,150 --> 00:56:19,150 All they could negotiate is to take them off and throw them away.
1077 00:56:19,150 --> 00:56:21,150 Exactly.
1078 00:56:21,150 --> 00:56:26,150 But that also means that they have nothing to offer.
1079 00:56:26,150 --> 00:56:29,150 They can't offer peace, pacts.
1080 00:56:29,150 --> 00:56:32,150 Neoliberalism could offer something.
1081 00:56:32,150 --> 00:56:35,150 They could offer cheap credit.
1082 00:56:35,150 --> 00:56:37,150 You could get a loan. You could borrow it.
1083 00:56:37,150 --> 00:56:41,150 You can't work your way up to the social democracy...
1084 00:56:41,150 --> 00:56:43,150 You can't buy yourself a house.
1085 00:56:43,150 --> 00:56:45,150 You don't have access to rental rights.
1086 00:56:45,150 --> 00:56:47,150 But you can get cheap loans.
1087 00:56:47,150 --> 00:56:50,150 So you will be indebted for the rest of your life.
1088 00:56:50,150 --> 00:56:52,150 But you will get your home.
1089 00:56:52,150 --> 00:56:54,150 Maybe you can sell it.
1090 00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:58,150 And your children will be able to have a base to buy a home.
1091 00:56:58,150 --> 00:57:01,150 That's what that promise gave.
1092 00:57:01,150 --> 00:57:03,150 And not even that promise can...
1093 00:57:03,150 --> 00:57:06,150 This new conservative...
1094 00:57:06,150 --> 00:57:08,150 What should we call it?
1095 00:57:08,150 --> 00:57:10,150 That Tide is an expression of.
1096 00:57:10,150 --> 00:57:12,150 A kind of...
1097 00:57:12,150 --> 00:57:15,150 National liberalism is a good term for it.
1098 00:57:15,150 --> 00:57:16,150 Exactly.
1099 00:57:16,150 --> 00:57:18,150 I think it's quite fitting.
1100 00:57:18,150 --> 00:57:23,150 An alliance between nationalism, fascism and liberalism.
1101 00:57:23,150 --> 00:57:25,150 In that way.
1102 00:57:25,150 --> 00:57:29,150 It can't offer anything other than a garden and cans.
1103 00:57:29,150 --> 00:57:31,150 Exactly.
1104 00:57:31,150 --> 00:57:35,150 And to go back to what we were talking about earlier.
1105 00:57:35,150 --> 00:57:37,150 The neoliberal strategy is not just this.
1106 00:57:37,150 --> 00:57:39,150 It's not just blood. It's not just violence.
1107 00:57:39,150 --> 00:57:41,150 It's not just the economy.
1108 00:57:41,150 --> 00:57:46,150 It's also a production or formation of new subjectivities.
1109 00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:50,150 Margaret Thatcher said that the economic science was the method.
1110 00:57:50,150 --> 00:57:53,150 But the goal was to change people's hearts and thoughts.
1111 00:57:53,150 --> 00:57:55,150 A form of war and subjectivity.
1112 00:57:55,150 --> 00:57:58,150 After the body in some way has been disturbed by violence.
1113 00:57:58,150 --> 00:58:00,150 For example in the 70's.
1114 00:58:00,150 --> 00:58:02,150 When you crossed the revolution.
1115 00:58:02,150 --> 00:58:05,150 Then the soul should be disturbed by mobilizing the effects.
1116 00:58:05,150 --> 00:58:08,150 Yes, as simple as letting people buy cheaply.
1117 00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:12,150 Then they get a housing right.
1118 00:58:12,150 --> 00:58:18,150 And then they are suddenly very concerned about what the rent levels are at the moment.
1119 00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:20,150 What will a strike do?
1120 00:58:20,150 --> 00:58:22,150 Or what will this affect?
1121 00:58:22,150 --> 00:58:24,150 No, we want to hold on.
1122 00:58:24,150 --> 00:58:26,150 The wealth in tax can have a negative impact.
1123 00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:28,150 Is there a refugee in the area?
1124 00:58:28,150 --> 00:58:29,150 Can it affect?
1125 00:58:29,150 --> 00:58:30,150 Yes, exactly.
1126 00:58:30,150 --> 00:58:35,150 That it really becomes a form of high political material interest that you try to create.
1127 00:58:35,150 --> 00:58:37,150 That it becomes a housing issue.
1128 00:58:37,150 --> 00:58:40,150 To shift from maybe renting your home to owning your home.
1129 00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:43,150 It also becomes a weapon in this war.
1130 00:58:43,150 --> 00:58:45,150 A subjectivity.
1131 00:58:45,150 --> 00:58:48,150 Yes, and that's where we're a little left with Lazaretto.
1132 00:58:48,150 --> 00:58:56,150 One should also say that the semiotext Autonomedia releases a number of small books by him.
1133 00:58:56,150 --> 00:59:00,150 And he writes in a rather high pace now.
1134 00:59:00,150 --> 00:59:05,150 You feel that every book continues a little where the previous one ended.
1135 00:59:05,150 --> 00:59:07,150 It's like in Bifo's books too.
1136 00:59:07,150 --> 00:59:09,150 That they tie into each other.
1137 00:59:09,150 --> 00:59:12,150 That it's very exciting that this is not a...
1138 00:59:12,150 --> 00:59:14,150 You get a book with a finished theory.
1139 00:59:14,150 --> 00:59:18,150 And this will develop further in the next one.
1140 00:59:18,150 --> 00:59:21,150 He has another one that came out in English recently.
1141 00:59:21,150 --> 00:59:24,150 That then takes up more revolutions.
1142 00:59:24,150 --> 00:59:27,150 And ties to racism and feminism.
1143 00:59:27,150 --> 00:59:29,150 And colonial movements.
1144 00:59:29,150 --> 00:59:31,150 Where he goes much more in.
1145 00:59:31,150 --> 00:59:33,150 I haven't got it yet. I haven't read it yet.
1146 00:59:33,150 --> 00:59:34,150 But it's one of those.
1147 00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:36,150 No, because he's very careful.
1148 00:59:36,150 --> 00:59:39,150 When I point out that what he means with the global civil war.
1149 00:59:39,150 --> 00:59:40,150 When he talks about civil war.
1150 00:59:40,150 --> 00:59:42,150 It's not just class war.
1151 00:59:42,150 --> 00:59:46,150 It's really war to subordinate women.
1152 00:59:46,150 --> 00:59:48,150 From racist grounds.
1153 00:59:48,150 --> 00:59:50,150 To racialize it and so on.
1154 00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:54,150 And that it's on all these fronts that this civil war takes place.
1155 00:59:54,150 --> 00:59:58,150 You could say, for example, when it comes to women.
1156 00:59:58,150 --> 01:00:00,150 All this...
1157 01:00:00,150 --> 01:00:03,150 What's her name? Naomi Wolf once wrote about...
1158 01:00:03,150 --> 01:00:04,150 A long time ago.
1159 01:00:04,150 --> 01:00:05,150 About the myth of beauty.
1160 01:00:05,150 --> 01:00:07,150 The industry of beauty.
1161 01:00:07,150 --> 01:00:09,150 It's a way...
1162 01:00:09,150 --> 01:00:11,150 Not only to intensify your appearance.
1163 01:00:11,150 --> 01:00:13,150 But it goes through...
1164 01:00:13,150 --> 01:00:14,150 Biopolitics.
1165 01:00:14,150 --> 01:00:15,150 The productive.
1166 01:00:15,150 --> 01:00:17,150 What you're going to create.
1167 01:00:17,150 --> 01:00:19,150 You're going to make yourself attractive.
1168 01:00:19,150 --> 01:00:21,150 Well trained.
1169 01:00:21,150 --> 01:00:24,150 Make sure you market yourself.
1170 01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:26,150 It's a subordination.
1171 01:00:26,150 --> 01:00:27,150 As a woman.
1172 01:00:27,150 --> 01:00:29,150 But not based on...
1173 01:00:29,150 --> 01:00:30,150 Just becoming an object.
1174 01:00:30,150 --> 01:00:31,150 You become a subject.
1175 01:00:31,150 --> 01:00:32,150 You're activated.
1176 01:00:32,150 --> 01:00:33,150 You...
1177 01:00:33,150 --> 01:00:35,150 You're a driving force in yourself.
1178 01:00:35,150 --> 01:00:37,150 And there we have this...
1179 01:00:37,150 --> 01:00:40,150 Foucault's Negronian side of the analysis.
1180 01:00:40,150 --> 01:00:42,150 Is relevant when it comes to that.
1181 01:00:42,150 --> 01:00:44,150 But should we understand these...
1182 01:00:44,150 --> 01:00:46,150 Attacks on abortion rights.
1183 01:00:46,150 --> 01:00:48,150 That are happening right now in...
1184 01:00:48,150 --> 01:00:49,150 USA or Poland.
1185 01:00:49,150 --> 01:00:52,150 And attacks on genus science.
1186 01:00:52,150 --> 01:00:54,150 And attacks on trans.
1187 01:00:54,150 --> 01:00:56,150 And everything that is about...
1188 01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:59,150 Secure reproduction.
1189 01:00:59,150 --> 01:01:02,150 And discuss the reduced nativity.
1190 01:01:02,150 --> 01:01:05,150 That too few children are born.
1191 01:01:05,150 --> 01:01:07,150 There's a lot of panic in the right now.
1192 01:01:07,150 --> 01:01:08,150 Yes.
1193 01:01:08,150 --> 01:01:10,150 And it's not a movement that is...
1194 01:01:10,150 --> 01:01:12,150 It's practiced over populations.
1195 01:01:12,150 --> 01:01:14,150 It's practiced over women.
1196 01:01:14,150 --> 01:01:16,150 But it's extremely repressive.
1197 01:01:16,150 --> 01:01:18,150 Violent against bodies.
1198 01:01:18,150 --> 01:01:20,150 It forbids with law.
1199 01:01:20,150 --> 01:01:22,150 And attacks with law.
1200 01:01:22,150 --> 01:01:24,150 Or attacks with violence.
1201 01:01:24,150 --> 01:01:27,150 How bodies are supposed to be.
1202 01:01:27,150 --> 01:01:29,150 And what they're supposed to do.
1203 01:01:29,150 --> 01:01:30,150 So...
1204 01:01:30,150 --> 01:01:31,150 That's where Lazaratos comes in.
1205 01:01:31,150 --> 01:01:33,150 We can't forget this.
1206 01:01:33,150 --> 01:01:34,150 The war.
1207 01:01:34,150 --> 01:01:35,150 The violence.
1208 01:01:35,150 --> 01:01:36,150 The repressive aspect.
1209 01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:38,150 That lies in this.
1210 01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:40,150 We can't just look at this.
1211 01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:42,150 That everyone is Instagram feminists today.
1212 01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:43,150 No.
1213 01:01:43,150 --> 01:01:45,150 But this patriarchal violence.
1214 01:01:45,150 --> 01:01:46,150 It's like a red thread.
1215 01:01:46,150 --> 01:01:48,150 And there were very big demonstrations.
1216 01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:50,150 For example in Italy last year.
1217 01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:52,150 After a young woman was beaten.
1218 01:01:52,150 --> 01:01:53,150 By her ex boyfriend.
1219 01:01:53,150 --> 01:01:54,150 Yes, there have been several.
1220 01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:55,150 It has been a movement.
1221 01:01:55,150 --> 01:01:57,150 That has now been going on for five years.
1222 01:01:57,150 --> 01:01:59,150 And it comes from Latin America.
1223 01:01:59,150 --> 01:02:00,150 Someone brought it in.
1224 01:02:00,150 --> 01:02:02,150 Someone brought it in.
1225 01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:05,150 So that violence is still a main focus.
1226 01:02:05,150 --> 01:02:06,150 That's absolutely it.
1227 01:02:06,150 --> 01:02:09,150 With the creation of some kind of subjetivity.
1228 01:02:09,150 --> 01:02:10,150 Where you're supposed to stay beautiful.
1229 01:02:10,150 --> 01:02:11,150 Subjected.
1230 01:02:11,150 --> 01:02:13,150 And be pleasant.
1231 01:02:13,150 --> 01:02:16,150 But also this with the constant risk of patriarchal violence.
1232 01:02:16,150 --> 01:02:17,150 Yes.
1233 01:02:17,150 --> 01:02:20,150 And that's what brings Meloni to power there.
1234 01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:23,150 It wasn't the traditional fascist idea.
1235 01:02:23,150 --> 01:02:27,150 That built on having control over the workforce.
1236 01:02:27,150 --> 01:02:29,150 That which will be allowed to work in Lega Nord's factory.
1237 01:02:29,150 --> 01:02:31,150 For example.
1238 01:02:31,150 --> 01:02:33,150 It's not the one now that's lifting.
1239 01:02:33,150 --> 01:02:35,150 They lifted Bellusconi to power.
1240 01:02:35,150 --> 01:02:38,150 But Meloni has been lifted to power.
1241 01:02:38,150 --> 01:02:41,150 By non-Catholic groups.
1242 01:02:41,150 --> 01:02:44,150 That copy the American Christian right.
1243 01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:46,150 About war.
1244 01:02:46,150 --> 01:02:48,150 About the female body.
1245 01:02:48,150 --> 01:02:49,150 About the war.
1246 01:02:49,150 --> 01:02:50,150 About nativity.
1247 01:02:50,150 --> 01:02:51,150 Reproduction.
1248 01:02:51,150 --> 01:02:55,150 That's what has lifted her forward.
1249 01:02:55,150 --> 01:02:56,150 To power.
1250 01:02:56,150 --> 01:02:57,150 So to speak.
1251 01:02:57,150 --> 01:02:58,150 Yes.
1252 01:02:58,150 --> 01:02:59,150 Yes.
1253 01:02:59,150 --> 01:03:00,150 Yes.
1254 01:03:00,150 --> 01:03:02,150 We might just get through.
1255 01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:03,150 Or have you.
1256 01:03:03,150 --> 01:03:04,150 Your long.
1257 01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:05,150 You had a long conflict.
1258 01:03:05,150 --> 01:03:06,150 Yes.
1259 01:03:06,150 --> 01:03:07,150 I got to kill a lot of Darlings.
1260 01:03:07,150 --> 01:03:08,150 Yes.
1261 01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:09,150 From the beginning.
1262 01:03:09,150 --> 01:03:10,150 So I shocked Matthias with.
1263 01:03:10,150 --> 01:03:12,150 It could have been ten episodes.
1264 01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:13,150 But then I killed a little Darlings.
1265 01:03:13,150 --> 01:03:16,150 But one thing that I think is very interesting.
1266 01:03:16,150 --> 01:03:18,150 As Lazzarato goes into much of the talk.
1267 01:03:18,150 --> 01:03:19,150 Just that with the creation of subjetivity.
1268 01:03:19,150 --> 01:03:20,150 It's this with debt.
1269 01:03:20,150 --> 01:03:23,150 And it's like a thought he has picked up from Gilles Deleuze.
1270 01:03:23,150 --> 01:03:24,150 And theory in control society.
1271 01:03:24,150 --> 01:03:26,150 Where he means that debt.
1272 01:03:26,150 --> 01:03:27,150 Is a very effective.
1273 01:03:27,150 --> 01:03:28,150 Form of control.
1274 01:03:28,150 --> 01:03:29,150 Which becomes a form of invisible.
1275 01:03:29,150 --> 01:03:30,150 Lockdown.
1276 01:03:30,150 --> 01:03:31,150 That is, a form of invisible prison.
1277 01:03:31,150 --> 01:03:32,150 But the more effective it becomes.
1278 01:03:32,150 --> 01:03:33,150 Because it becomes so abstract.
1279 01:03:33,150 --> 01:03:34,150 It does not directly touch the body.
1280 01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:35,150 You are not directly locked in somewhere.
1281 01:03:35,150 --> 01:03:36,150 But you get stuck.
1282 01:03:36,150 --> 01:03:37,150 In a form of matrix.
1283 01:03:37,150 --> 01:03:38,150 Of calculations.
1284 01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:39,150 Of individualized risk.
1285 01:03:39,150 --> 01:03:40,150 And it controls one's.
1286 01:03:40,150 --> 01:03:41,150 Decisions and actions.
1287 01:03:41,150 --> 01:03:42,150 Because you always have to relate to your debt.
1288 01:03:42,150 --> 01:03:43,150 That you should be able to pay off.
1289 01:03:43,150 --> 01:03:44,150 Your debts.
1290 01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:45,150 Because it's just such a thing.
1291 01:03:45,150 --> 01:03:46,150 Like getting caught in the crown.
1292 01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:47,150 And you get points.
1293 01:03:47,150 --> 01:03:48,150 And you get points.
1294 01:03:48,150 --> 01:03:49,150 And you get points.
1295 01:03:49,150 --> 01:03:50,150 And you get points.
1296 01:03:50,150 --> 01:03:51,150 And you get points.
1297 01:03:51,150 --> 01:03:52,150 And you get points.
1298 01:03:52,150 --> 01:03:53,150 And you get points.
1299 01:03:53,150 --> 01:03:54,150 And you get points.
1300 01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:55,150 And you get points.
1301 01:03:55,150 --> 01:03:58,150 Like getting caught in the crown.
1302 01:03:58,170 --> 01:03:59,150 And you get points.
1303 01:03:59,150 --> 01:04:00,150 It becomes really limited.
1304 01:04:00,150 --> 01:04:01,150 You can not get a new account.
1305 01:04:01,150 --> 01:04:02,390 Or if you live in a rental estate.
1306 01:04:02,430 --> 01:04:03,430 You perhaps can not move.
1307 01:04:03,430 --> 01:04:04,430 To another rental estate.
1308 01:04:04,430 --> 01:04:05,430 Because you are denied to have.
1309 01:04:05,430 --> 01:04:06,750 A lot of debt.
1310 01:04:06,790 --> 01:04:07,910 And that can create.
1311 01:04:08,230 --> 01:04:10,270 A very serious control.
1312 01:04:10,270 --> 01:04:11,710 And Lazzaratta also means.
1313 01:04:11,830 --> 01:04:14,070 There is a moral aspect to this.
1314 01:04:14,070 --> 01:04:15,390 To the ability.
1315 01:04:15,390 --> 01:04:16,390 To be able to pay.
1316 01:04:16,390 --> 01:04:17,870 Or not to be able to pay.
1317 01:04:18,110 --> 01:04:19,150 With terms as.
1318 01:04:19,230 --> 01:04:20,230 Responses.
1319 01:04:20,230 --> 01:04:21,310 Boringness.
1320 01:04:21,430 --> 01:04:23,310 There is a clear narrative.
1321 01:04:24,310 --> 01:04:24,990 About individual responsibility.
1322 01:04:24,990 --> 01:04:30,590 our work as an individual agency, and that becomes a very clear part of this social control.
1323 01:04:30,590 --> 01:04:35,890 And he also means that unlike work, where you often have workmates and enter a form of social context,
1324 01:04:35,890 --> 01:04:39,090 where there is still some kind of possibility for collective action,
1325 01:04:39,090 --> 01:04:42,690 then there is a guilt-ridden or a guilt-ridden form of invisible community.
1326 01:04:42,690 --> 01:04:46,290 And a very politicized individualism.
1327 01:04:46,290 --> 01:04:51,190 He also links it to fascism, that you become a guilt-ridden person, you become frustrated and guilty,
1328 01:04:51,190 --> 01:04:55,690 completely isolated and above all, de-politicalized because it becomes a invisible community,
1329 01:04:55,690 --> 01:05:00,690 and then he means that it can also create, that you become accountable for the offender of Fascism.
1330 01:05:00,690 --> 01:05:19,130 He writes that the micro-politics of이에요
1331 01:05:19,130 --> 01:05:21,090 And that is the making of the indebted man.
1332 01:05:21,090 --> 01:05:31,090 If we look at the war today as a different dimension, we see it in the closing of bank accounts, which ones are allowed.
1333 01:05:31,090 --> 01:05:40,090 That you close down associations, you hunt criminals, you should go to study associations.
1334 01:05:40,090 --> 01:05:54,090 The core of the whole thing is about the dissatisfied tax payer as a subject who is going to drain the trash.
1335 01:05:54,090 --> 01:06:00,090 Like the former CEO of Sveriges Näringsliv said, what do I get for the money?
1336 01:06:00,090 --> 01:06:07,090 That is their argument, that we don't think we should invest common money in this.
1337 01:06:07,090 --> 01:06:10,090 And then it is what will motivate.
1338 01:06:10,090 --> 01:06:14,090 The dissatisfied tax payer should be pulled back.
1339 01:06:14,090 --> 01:06:22,090 That means that you create an enormous control apparatus that you have to live up to to be justified.
1340 01:06:22,090 --> 01:06:26,090 And if that is not the case, then the money should be pulled back.
1341 01:06:26,090 --> 01:06:34,090 Or the accounts are closed, or the offices are closed, or the university faculties are closed down.
1342 01:06:34,090 --> 01:06:40,090 You really use economic resources.
1343 01:06:40,090 --> 01:06:46,090 The offices in the public institutions, the bank accounts, everything you need to survive now.
1344 01:06:46,090 --> 01:06:52,090 To repress, punish and discipline subjectivities.
1345 01:06:52,090 --> 01:06:56,090 Yes, exactly. It becomes like the civil war, although with other means.
1346 01:06:56,090 --> 01:06:59,090 Although you use the economic warfare instead.
1347 01:06:59,090 --> 01:07:01,090 And here it is interesting to look at Sweden.
1348 01:07:01,090 --> 01:07:06,090 Here the debt has increased, for example compared to last year.
1349 01:07:06,090 --> 01:07:08,090 It has increased by 17%.
1350 01:07:08,090 --> 01:07:09,090 And it's just ticking.
1351 01:07:09,090 --> 01:07:11,090 And it becomes debt.
1352 01:07:11,090 --> 01:07:13,090 So as you said, when everything is pulled back.
1353 01:07:13,090 --> 01:07:17,090 So for many large groups, in order to somehow be able to keep up with the development.
1354 01:07:17,090 --> 01:07:19,090 So the only thing you can do is increase your debt.
1355 01:07:19,090 --> 01:07:23,090 And that's where this whole widespread consumer credit market comes in.
1356 01:07:23,090 --> 01:07:27,090 Where an incredible number of people get stuck in what is called over-debt.
1357 01:07:27,090 --> 01:07:29,090 That you get a chronic debt.
1358 01:07:29,090 --> 01:07:31,090 You can't pay your debts.
1359 01:07:31,090 --> 01:07:33,090 And there are very long-term consequences of that.
1360 01:07:33,090 --> 01:07:37,090 And there are a lot of young people who get stuck in that.
1361 01:07:37,090 --> 01:07:40,090 Consumption loans and e-commerce on overpayment.
1362 01:07:40,090 --> 01:07:42,090 So before they even get into adulthood.
1363 01:07:42,090 --> 01:07:45,090 They are stuck in this debt trap.
1364 01:07:45,090 --> 01:07:47,090 This invisible prison that Serato is talking about.
1365 01:07:47,090 --> 01:07:49,090 Yes, I have to thank Björn.
1366 01:07:49,090 --> 01:07:53,090 We have another chapter here on the way.
1367 01:07:53,090 --> 01:07:55,090 Yes, super fun to be with.
1368 01:07:55,090 --> 01:07:59,090 Yes, we will be back in a year and go on in this discussion.
1369 01:07:59,090 --> 01:08:01,090 Yes, to see what a rabbit hole it will be then.
1370 01:08:01,090 --> 01:08:05,090 Yes, and I must also say that you write in All for All's newspaper, Svärm.
1371 01:08:05,090 --> 01:08:06,090 Yes.
1372 01:08:06,090 --> 01:08:09,090 So if you don't want to look in the fire and find your texts.
1373 01:08:09,090 --> 01:08:11,090 Then there is also on Svärm.
1374 01:08:11,090 --> 01:08:15,090 Where you explore more than political practice also about this.
1375 01:08:15,090 --> 01:08:16,090 Yes, exactly.
1376 01:08:16,090 --> 01:08:18,090 And I will also, I can do a little advertising.
1377 01:08:18,090 --> 01:08:21,090 I will also be in the Radical Book Fair in Gothenburg.
1378 01:08:21,090 --> 01:08:23,090 And talk about these things.
1379 01:08:23,090 --> 01:08:26,090 And maybe go into a little deeper into some aspects and so on.
1380 01:08:26,090 --> 01:08:28,090 So there you can keep an eye out.
1381 01:08:28,090 --> 01:08:29,090 Super.
1382 01:08:29,090 --> 01:08:30,090 Thank you very much.
1383 01:08:30,090 --> 01:08:31,090 Thank you.
1384 01:08:44,020 --> 01:08:46,020 And see you guys later.
1385 01:08:46,020 --> 01:08:47,020 Thank you.
1386 01:08:47,020 --> 01:08:48,020 Bye-bye.
1387 01:08:48,020 --> 01:08:52,020 Subscribe to All for All so you don't miss future videos.
1388 01:08:52,020 --> 01:08:54,020 I want to thank Y ОтDDE,
1389 01:08:54,020 --> 01:08:55,020 who is a scientific,
1390 01:08:55,020 --> 01:08:56,020 political,
1391 01:08:56,020 --> 01:09:13,260 and
1392 01:09:13,260 --> 01:09:19,819 are our enemies but from that you should understand this all our enemies are criminals
1393 01:09:19,819 --> 01:09:25,300 as potential escapees each of you is a potential criminal that's why it's a good thing we keep our
1394 01:09:25,300 --> 01:09:30,080 lists of the numbers you call on your phones and that's why your cell phone allows us to locate
1395 01:09:30,080 --> 01:09:36,020 you at any time and that your credit card lets us get to know your habits so easily rule number
1396 01:09:36,020 --> 01:09:40,880 seven in this little game of ours anyone who escapes their isolation will be called the
1397 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:46,240 criminals as for those who have the gall to protest this status we will call them terrorists
1398 01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:53,020 the latter may be shot to death at any time rule number eight we're quite aware that life among
1399 01:09:53,020 --> 01:09:58,260 our society contains about as much joy as a suburban train ride that capitalism has up to
1400 01:09:58,260 --> 01:10:03,680 now produced in matters of wealth nothing but universal desolation that there are no arguments
1401 01:10:03,680 --> 01:10:09,060 left to defend our worm-eaten order besides police flash grenades but what do you expect
1402 01:10:09,060 --> 01:10:10,420 that's the way it goes
1403 01:10:10,420 --> 01:10:15,340 we've disarmed you mentally physically and we have the monopoly over what we can prohibit to you
1404 01:10:15,340 --> 01:10:22,860 violence collusion and emergency and after all frankly speaking would you do otherwise if you
1405 01:10:22,860 --> 01:10:31,060 were us rule number nine you will know the prison rule number 10 there are no more rules
1406 01:10:31,060 --> 01:10:34,980 all assaults are permitted signed your government
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Skapad: 13 april 2026