Ropen hörs oftare från högern. Inbördeskriget bryter snart ut. Det är oundvikligt. Samhällskontraktet är brutet. Samtidigt har vänstern glömt inbördeskriget - och därmed även glömt revolutionen. Därmed osynliggör vi det våld som finns inbyggd i kapitalismen. Med Björn Nordh går vi igenom teorierna om inbördeskriget, från Carl Schmitt, Hannah Arendt och Hans Magnus Enzensberger över till Maurizio Lazzarato och Tiqqun. Är samhället lika kännetecknat av ett inbördes krig som en inbördes hjälp? För mer info: Maurizio Lazzarato and Éric Alliez: To Our Enemies https://www.e-flux.com/journal/78/82697/to-our-enemies/ Tiqqun: The great game of civil war https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mazF28rCNvU Böcker: Hannah Arendt: Om revolutionen (Daidalos, 2021) Carl Schimtt: Det poltiska som bwgrepp (Daidalos, 2010) Hans Magnus Enzensberger: Inbördes krig (Nordstedts, 1993) Maurizio Lazzarato: Capital hates everone: Fascism or revolution (Semiotext(e), 2021) Giorgio Agamben: Stasis: Civil War as a Political Paradigm (Standford University press, 2015) Tiqqun: Introduction to civil war (Semiotext(e), 2010)
1 00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:12,930 Until further notice, all your rights are hereby suspended.
2 00:00:13,410 --> 00:00:17,430 Naturally, you should keep the illusion that you still have some for a little while.
3 00:00:17,690 --> 00:00:21,290 That way we can violate them one by one, case by case.
4 00:00:22,070 --> 00:00:23,710 Rule number two, be nice.
5 00:00:24,030 --> 00:00:29,570 Don't mention laws, the Constitution, or any of the lubrications of another age to us anymore.
6 00:00:30,070 --> 00:00:31,990 Some time ago, as you may have noticed,
7 00:00:31,990 --> 00:00:38,990 we passed certain laws that put us above the laws and the rest of the so-called Constitution.
8 00:00:40,130 --> 00:00:45,170 Rule number three, you're weak, isolated, stupid, abused.
9 00:00:45,590 --> 00:00:49,570 We are numerous, organized, strong, and enlightened.
10 00:00:50,270 --> 00:00:51,890 Some might say we're a mafia.
11 00:00:52,910 --> 00:00:53,890 That's a lie.
12 00:00:54,330 --> 00:00:58,130 We are the mafia, the one that's won out over all the others.
13 00:00:58,130 --> 00:01:01,550 We alone are able to protect you from the chaos of the world
14 00:01:01,550 --> 00:01:01,970 and the world itself.
15 00:01:02,210 --> 00:01:05,090 That's why it pleases us so greatly to make you think you're weak,
16 00:01:05,330 --> 00:01:07,410 to make you believe you are insecure.
17 00:01:08,370 --> 00:01:10,610 That's what makes our racket so profitable.
18 00:01:11,810 --> 00:01:15,290 Rule number four, for you, the game will consist in you escaping,
19 00:01:15,490 --> 00:01:17,030 or at least trying to escape.
20 00:01:17,350 --> 00:01:20,630 By escaping, we mean going beyond your dependent state.
21 00:01:21,090 --> 00:01:24,430 For now, it's true you do depend on us in all aspects of your life.
22 00:01:24,650 --> 00:01:27,130 You eat what we produce, you breathe what we pollute,
23 00:01:27,130 --> 00:01:29,450 you're at our mercy for the slightest tooth decay,
24 00:01:29,810 --> 00:01:31,810 and above all, you can't do anything.
25 00:01:31,990 --> 00:01:33,850 Against the sovereignty of our police forces,
26 00:01:34,150 --> 00:01:36,090 which we have given the full range of powers,
27 00:01:36,550 --> 00:01:39,030 both in terms of discretion and action.
28 00:01:47,640 --> 00:01:50,360 Welcome to The Ape's Anatomy.
29 00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,120 Now I'm sitting in Gothenburg this time,
30 00:01:54,420 --> 00:01:57,240 in a kitchen, at home with Björn Nord.
31 00:01:58,400 --> 00:01:59,500 Björn Nord, welcome.
32 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:01,000 It's the second time you're on the podcast.
33 00:02:01,660 --> 00:02:03,260 Yes, thanks. It's fun to be back.
34 00:02:03,940 --> 00:02:07,800 We're going to tie in a little bit to what we talked about last time.
35 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:09,320 Mm, exactly.
36 00:02:09,320 --> 00:02:10,520 What did we talk about last time?
37 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:13,800 We talked about... The starting point was a little bit...
38 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:16,160 The first stop was my text, which was with Brand,
39 00:02:16,620 --> 00:02:17,560 which was called The Ape of Survival.
40 00:02:19,080 --> 00:02:22,380 And then there was a lot of focus on the ape, the ape concept.
41 00:02:22,820 --> 00:02:24,800 And now we're going over a little bit more about...
42 00:02:24,800 --> 00:02:26,500 We're talking about war and civil war.
43 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:28,020 Yes, civil war.
44 00:02:28,020 --> 00:02:29,220 And that...
45 00:02:29,220 --> 00:02:36,280 For a while, I made an episode that was about the global war,
46 00:02:36,460 --> 00:02:37,800 the global war regime.
47 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:38,840 Mm.
48 00:02:38,840 --> 00:02:42,120 And I went into that a little bit with Maurizio Lazzarato,
49 00:02:42,420 --> 00:02:46,120 who is an autonomous theorist.
50 00:02:46,540 --> 00:02:48,680 He's originally from Padua.
51 00:02:49,680 --> 00:02:51,520 I don't know if I said that, but I've met him,
52 00:02:51,700 --> 00:02:53,520 and I've also met his sister in Padua.
53 00:02:53,520 --> 00:02:55,580 Yes, you had even forgotten that you had interviewed him once.
54 00:02:55,960 --> 00:02:59,160 Yes, that's right. I have an interview with him.
55 00:03:00,220 --> 00:03:04,060 And he, in Poter Operai, was the one who was responsible
56 00:03:04,060 --> 00:03:06,620 for their militant branch in Padua.
57 00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:07,320 So he...
58 00:03:07,320 --> 00:03:10,320 Then he fled and wanted to end up in Paris.
59 00:03:10,640 --> 00:03:14,260 And there, I think, he got access to Foucault's archive
60 00:03:14,260 --> 00:03:16,780 and devoted himself a lot to Foucault.
61 00:03:17,720 --> 00:03:21,460 And we have read this book called
62 00:03:21,460 --> 00:03:23,800 Capital Hates Everyone.
63 00:03:24,380 --> 00:03:25,780 And you've read many more books about him.
64 00:03:25,780 --> 00:03:27,240 Yes, I have read...
65 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:32,100 Before this interview, I had mostly just read his text
66 00:03:32,100 --> 00:03:34,860 about immaterial work, which comes with a collection
67 00:03:34,860 --> 00:03:37,000 from the 90s called Radical Politics in Italy.
68 00:03:37,320 --> 00:03:40,260 But now it's a bit like I fell into the Lazzarato rabbit hole
69 00:03:40,260 --> 00:03:41,860 and read most of what I came across.
70 00:03:42,760 --> 00:03:45,840 So I've also read War and Capital, a slightly thicker book,
71 00:03:46,300 --> 00:03:48,420 and I've also read these texts that he's written
72 00:03:48,420 --> 00:03:50,220 that are on illwill on the internet.
73 00:03:50,780 --> 00:03:54,980 And it's a bit exciting now when both Mario Tronti
74 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:57,860 and Antonio Negri, Tony Negri, are gone.
75 00:03:58,140 --> 00:04:01,280 To walk in the circle around them,
76 00:04:01,360 --> 00:04:03,940 because they were never alone.
77 00:04:03,940 --> 00:04:07,200 They always thought collectively with a large group,
78 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:08,440 with other people.
79 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,260 And then you find Maurizio Lazzarato,
80 00:04:12,780 --> 00:04:15,660 Sandro Messadra, who is talked about in the podcast,
81 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:18,839 Paolo Virno, and...
82 00:04:18,839 --> 00:04:21,600 Yes, there's a lot to take from there.
83 00:04:22,980 --> 00:04:24,700 Yes, and there is a...
84 00:04:24,700 --> 00:04:25,980 We have a common comrade,
85 00:04:26,100 --> 00:04:27,720 who is a little jokingly used to call Lazzarato
86 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:28,600 for Dark Negri.
87 00:04:29,740 --> 00:04:33,220 Even if it's a joke, I still think it's quite touching,
88 00:04:33,220 --> 00:04:35,520 because Tony Negri is very positive and exciting
89 00:04:35,520 --> 00:04:37,180 about capitalism in the United States,
90 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:38,960 because he's been a professor at the University of New York
91 00:04:38,960 --> 00:04:39,880 for a very long time.
92 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:41,640 I think he needs to be made more positive,
93 00:04:41,640 --> 00:04:43,040 and that's something that we're all sharing.
94 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,660 And, like I just said,
95 00:04:44,660 --> 00:04:46,080 if you compare these two books,
96 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:48,120 they're both very similar in their forms,
97 00:04:48,120 --> 00:04:50,500 as well as their possibilities of personalities.
98 00:04:50,500 --> 00:04:52,940 Lazzarato is more about war,
99 00:04:52,940 --> 00:04:57,100 incursion, war, control, and destruction, etc.
100 00:04:57,100 --> 00:05:00,040 So, before I saw what that could mean,
101 00:05:00,040 --> 00:05:02,680 I thought they were getting a little bit closer to each other,
102 00:05:02,680 --> 00:05:04,180 because they come from the same place,
103 00:05:04,180 --> 00:05:05,280 or the same tradition,
104 00:05:05,280 --> 00:05:07,100 but Lazzarato is still quite friendly
105 00:05:07,100 --> 00:05:16,100 The time with Negri and the time with the imperial analysis and the time with Foucault's analysis of biomarkt and so on.
106 00:05:16,100 --> 00:05:26,100 It's like a pendulum movement, that's what they reacted to in the 60s and 70s and then went to France and found something completely different.
107 00:05:26,100 --> 00:05:34,100 That it went too far in the other direction and now they're trying to turn the pendulum back a bit.
108 00:05:34,100 --> 00:05:41,100 What can you say is Lazzarato's basic thesis in this Capital Hates Everyone?
109 00:05:41,100 --> 00:05:50,100 The most important thing is how he sees war, civil war and the original accumulation.
110 00:05:50,100 --> 00:05:58,100 He connects war between states, civil war, class, racism and gender.
111 00:05:58,100 --> 00:06:02,100 That it has always followed the development of capital.
112 00:06:02,100 --> 00:06:04,100 And that's because they have the basis.
113 00:06:04,100 --> 00:06:08,100 In the classical Marxist school it's called the original accumulation.
114 00:06:08,100 --> 00:06:13,100 Which Marx called the historical separation of processes between the producer and the means of production.
115 00:06:13,100 --> 00:06:18,100 That is, the process of proletarianization and the consumption of common resources and so on.
116 00:06:18,100 --> 00:06:26,100 And Marx says that this was a process that was dripping from top to toe over every pore of blood and dirt.
117 00:06:26,100 --> 00:06:28,100 And that's an approach that Lazzarato really has.
118 00:06:28,100 --> 00:06:32,100 This with the blood and dirt that always follows the original accumulation.
119 00:06:32,100 --> 00:06:34,100 Which he means is something like...
120 00:06:34,100 --> 00:06:36,100 A process that must be repeated every day.
121 00:06:36,100 --> 00:06:42,100 The subordination of these classes is nothing that has happened as a historical fact.
122 00:06:42,100 --> 00:06:45,100 As a form of prerequisite for the capitalist production method.
123 00:06:45,100 --> 00:06:48,100 But it's a constantly ongoing process, he means.
124 00:06:48,100 --> 00:06:54,100 And that this process requires a very external economic violence that forms classes.
125 00:06:54,100 --> 00:06:57,100 And that in some way is a fundamental heresy.
126 00:06:57,100 --> 00:07:02,100 And a preserving violence that both stabilizes and reproduces relations between the victors and the defeated.
127 00:07:02,100 --> 00:07:08,100 And that's really something that goes on in his take on the regular civil war.
128 00:07:08,100 --> 00:07:12,100 Simply that these wars, they annihilate bodies, not physically.
129 00:07:12,100 --> 00:07:16,100 And then they divide them up into victors and defeated, owners and non-owners.
130 00:07:16,100 --> 00:07:25,100 So many Marxists do this, that capitalism builds on violence and blood in its introduction.
131 00:07:25,100 --> 00:07:26,100 Exactly.
132 00:07:26,100 --> 00:07:31,100 Just when you drive away these small self-possessing bands.
133 00:07:31,100 --> 00:07:34,100 From their land, embedded in the land.
134 00:07:34,100 --> 00:07:36,100 They are forced to seek...
135 00:07:36,100 --> 00:07:38,100 Own nothing other than their labor.
136 00:07:38,100 --> 00:07:40,100 Seek to go into the factories.
137 00:07:40,100 --> 00:07:42,100 That's where the violence is.
138 00:07:42,100 --> 00:07:45,100 And then there's the violence in colonialism.
139 00:07:45,100 --> 00:07:47,100 The annihilation of the world.
140 00:07:47,100 --> 00:07:51,100 To take everything from slaves to resources in abundance.
141 00:07:51,100 --> 00:07:58,100 But then during the 19th century and the global free trade, neoliberalism.
142 00:07:58,100 --> 00:08:00,100 It has been a time of peace.
143 00:08:00,100 --> 00:08:01,100 And that's...
144 00:08:01,100 --> 00:08:02,100 Like the EU.
145 00:08:02,100 --> 00:08:04,100 The EU has been a peace project.
146 00:08:04,100 --> 00:08:10,100 By creating trade in Europe, the war disappeared from Europe.
147 00:08:10,100 --> 00:08:15,100 And now we have seen the war's return to Europe.
148 00:08:15,100 --> 00:08:18,100 And a time that we thought maybe was...
149 00:08:18,100 --> 00:08:25,100 That the war had more disappeared and passed away in police operations in a way.
150 00:08:25,100 --> 00:08:30,100 That they had been so ideologically motivated by the USA and desalinated.
151 00:08:30,100 --> 00:08:32,100 Or that they intervened.
152 00:08:32,100 --> 00:08:35,100 They made targeted attacks in different countries.
153 00:08:35,100 --> 00:08:38,100 But as a kind of global police.
154 00:08:38,100 --> 00:08:41,100 Rather than as a conflict between sovereign nations.
155 00:08:41,100 --> 00:08:43,100 That fight against each other.
156 00:08:43,100 --> 00:08:44,100 No, exactly.
157 00:08:44,100 --> 00:08:47,100 And then the war has somehow come back.
158 00:08:47,100 --> 00:08:48,100 But...
159 00:08:48,100 --> 00:08:52,100 And that's what I've been talking about in a previous podcast.
160 00:08:52,100 --> 00:08:55,100 That it was a mistake to think about the war.
161 00:08:55,100 --> 00:08:57,100 But then there's this other side as well.
162 00:08:57,100 --> 00:08:58,100 That it was...
163 00:08:58,100 --> 00:08:59,100 Lassaratt and Lyfter.
164 00:08:59,100 --> 00:09:02,100 That it was a mistake to think about the revolution.
165 00:09:02,100 --> 00:09:04,100 And the civil war.
166 00:09:04,100 --> 00:09:06,100 From this analysis.
167 00:09:06,100 --> 00:09:11,100 If you take Foucault's concept of biomarkt, biopolitics.
168 00:09:11,100 --> 00:09:16,100 Biopolitics is a policy that is exercised over populations.
169 00:09:16,100 --> 00:09:18,100 Over populations.
170 00:09:18,100 --> 00:09:23,100 To get them to be healthy.
171 00:09:23,100 --> 00:09:24,100 To be caring.
172 00:09:24,100 --> 00:09:26,100 To go to work.
173 00:09:26,100 --> 00:09:28,100 To be willing to live.
174 00:09:29,100 --> 00:09:33,100 It's a policy that goes out a lot.
175 00:09:33,100 --> 00:09:36,100 Not to punish.
176 00:09:36,100 --> 00:09:38,100 To discipline in that way.
177 00:09:38,100 --> 00:09:41,100 That it's not the whistling you threaten with.
178 00:09:41,100 --> 00:09:42,100 No.
179 00:09:42,100 --> 00:09:44,100 But it's a lot of bruises.
180 00:09:44,100 --> 00:09:45,100 That it's...
181 00:09:45,100 --> 00:09:46,100 I read another text by Lassaratt.
182 00:09:46,100 --> 00:09:49,100 And he calls it a kind of pastoral power.
183 00:09:49,100 --> 00:09:51,100 Kind of like the foothold.
184 00:09:51,100 --> 00:09:52,100 Yes, exactly.
185 00:09:52,100 --> 00:09:53,100 The one that waves a foothold.
186 00:09:53,100 --> 00:09:55,100 How you get it to go there.
187 00:09:55,100 --> 00:09:57,100 The foothold knows for itself that they're running.
188 00:09:57,100 --> 00:09:58,100 But with the foothold...
189 00:09:58,100 --> 00:09:59,100 The direction and so on.
190 00:09:59,100 --> 00:10:00,100 Yes.
191 00:10:00,100 --> 00:10:02,100 Then you get them to run there themselves.
192 00:10:02,100 --> 00:10:03,100 Exactly.
193 00:10:03,100 --> 00:10:04,100 Where you want.
194 00:10:04,100 --> 00:10:05,100 But...
195 00:10:05,100 --> 00:10:08,100 And it's that from Foucault to Deleuze and Guattari.
196 00:10:08,100 --> 00:10:09,100 To Nedre Hart.
197 00:10:09,100 --> 00:10:11,100 So this has been a lot of...
198 00:10:11,100 --> 00:10:14,100 Instead of looking at the power as purely repressive.
199 00:10:14,100 --> 00:10:16,100 You see how the power produces.
200 00:10:16,100 --> 00:10:18,100 It is productive.
201 00:10:18,100 --> 00:10:20,100 It creates needs.
202 00:10:20,100 --> 00:10:21,100 Desires.
203 00:10:21,100 --> 00:10:22,100 Joy.
204 00:10:22,100 --> 00:10:24,100 Longing for the same people.
205 00:10:24,100 --> 00:10:27,100 And you can even say that this...
206 00:10:27,100 --> 00:10:31,100 The productive almost comes before the capital.
207 00:10:31,100 --> 00:10:34,100 The resistance comes before the power.
208 00:10:34,100 --> 00:10:36,100 And Foucault in the end.
209 00:10:36,100 --> 00:10:41,100 That there are a lot of productive communities.
210 00:10:41,100 --> 00:10:43,100 And then comes the foothold.
211 00:10:43,100 --> 00:10:45,100 And tries to wave it in the right direction.
212 00:10:45,100 --> 00:10:46,100 To make money out of it.
213 00:10:46,100 --> 00:10:50,100 You kind of involve a community on the internet.
214 00:10:50,100 --> 00:10:52,100 To make money out of it.
215 00:10:52,100 --> 00:10:56,100 That people themselves sit and put up their daily conversations.
216 00:10:56,100 --> 00:10:57,100 With food recipes.
217 00:10:57,100 --> 00:10:58,100 And talk about life.
218 00:10:58,100 --> 00:10:59,100 And this and that.
219 00:10:59,100 --> 00:11:01,100 And that's what Lazzarato...
220 00:11:01,100 --> 00:11:04,100 He draws it back to the first step.
221 00:11:04,100 --> 00:11:06,100 That the original accumulation.
222 00:11:06,100 --> 00:11:08,100 And the victory of the capital.
223 00:11:08,100 --> 00:11:09,100 Under the ruling class.
224 00:11:09,100 --> 00:11:10,100 It has to happen first.
225 00:11:10,100 --> 00:11:12,100 And it happens through repression.
226 00:11:12,100 --> 00:11:13,100 Through violence.
227 00:11:13,100 --> 00:11:16,100 He means that the existence of profit.
228 00:11:16,100 --> 00:11:18,100 It has to...
229 00:11:18,100 --> 00:11:20,100 It requires national state.
230 00:11:20,100 --> 00:11:21,100 Racism.
231 00:11:21,100 --> 00:11:22,100 Sexism.
232 00:11:22,100 --> 00:11:24,100 If necessary, then also fascism.
233 00:11:24,100 --> 00:11:25,100 And civil war.
234 00:11:25,100 --> 00:11:27,100 To make it possible politically.
235 00:11:27,100 --> 00:11:29,100 To continue exploitation.
236 00:11:29,100 --> 00:11:30,100 And expulsion.
237 00:11:30,100 --> 00:11:32,100 When the situation requires it.
238 00:11:32,100 --> 00:11:33,100 Simply without state.
239 00:11:33,100 --> 00:11:34,100 Without war.
240 00:11:34,100 --> 00:11:35,100 Without racism.
241 00:11:35,100 --> 00:11:36,100 Without fascism.
242 00:11:36,100 --> 00:11:37,100 Then there will be no profit.
243 00:11:37,100 --> 00:11:38,100 That he really connects it.
244 00:11:38,100 --> 00:11:40,100 With violence and fascism.
245 00:11:40,100 --> 00:11:41,100 With profit.
246 00:11:41,100 --> 00:11:44,100 And with the survival of capitalism.
247 00:11:44,100 --> 00:11:45,100 In a different way.
248 00:11:45,100 --> 00:11:47,100 And he means that...
249 00:11:47,100 --> 00:11:48,100 And you talk about it a bit.
250 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:50,100 In this war regime section too.
251 00:11:50,100 --> 00:11:51,100 It's not like he completely declares.
252 00:11:51,100 --> 00:11:52,100 Deleuze Gattari.
253 00:11:52,100 --> 00:11:53,100 And Foucault and so on.
254 00:11:53,100 --> 00:11:54,100 But he means that it's a later step.
255 00:11:54,100 --> 00:11:55,100 With this with...
256 00:11:55,100 --> 00:11:56,100 The form of subjectivities.
257 00:11:56,100 --> 00:11:57,100 And all that.
258 00:11:57,100 --> 00:11:58,100 Even with...
259 00:11:58,100 --> 00:11:59,100 When he talks about...
260 00:11:59,100 --> 00:12:00,100 New liberalism.
261 00:12:00,100 --> 00:12:01,100 And with...
262 00:12:01,100 --> 00:12:02,100 Its introduction.
263 00:12:02,100 --> 00:12:03,100 Like in...
264 00:12:03,100 --> 00:12:04,100 Latin America.
265 00:12:04,100 --> 00:12:05,100 And how it spread.
266 00:12:05,100 --> 00:12:06,100 From Latin America.
267 00:12:06,100 --> 00:12:07,100 Like in the seventies.
268 00:12:07,100 --> 00:12:08,100 To England.
269 00:12:08,100 --> 00:12:09,100 And the USA.
270 00:12:09,100 --> 00:12:10,100 And the rest of the world.
271 00:12:10,100 --> 00:12:11,100 That it has also been.
272 00:12:11,100 --> 00:12:12,100 A violent process.
273 00:12:12,100 --> 00:12:13,100 The entire world.
274 00:12:13,100 --> 00:12:14,100 Exactly.
275 00:12:14,100 --> 00:12:15,100 That has been initiated.
276 00:12:15,100 --> 00:12:16,100 With crossing.
277 00:12:16,100 --> 00:12:17,100 The labor movement.
278 00:12:17,100 --> 00:12:18,100 Cross the trade union movement.
279 00:12:18,100 --> 00:12:19,100 The labor union movement.
280 00:12:19,100 --> 00:12:20,100 The labor union movement.
281 00:12:20,100 --> 00:12:21,100 The labor union movement.
282 00:12:21,100 --> 00:12:22,100 The labor union movement.
283 00:12:22,100 --> 00:12:23,100 The labor union movement.
284 00:12:23,100 --> 00:12:24,100 Cro for the labor union movement.
285 00:12:24,100 --> 00:12:25,100 Caught the labor union movement.
286 00:12:25,100 --> 00:12:26,100 Are mobilizing.
287 00:12:26,100 --> 00:12:27,100 The labor union of the workers.
288 00:12:27,100 --> 00:12:28,100 The labor union.
289 00:12:28,100 --> 00:12:29,100 Gattari.
290 00:12:29,100 --> 00:12:30,100 The labor union movement.
291 00:12:30,100 --> 00:12:31,100 Biola.
292 00:12:31,100 --> 00:12:32,100 Say the name.
293 00:12:32,100 --> 00:12:33,100 Of the labor union movement.
294 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:34,100 That the workers.
295 00:12:34,100 --> 00:12:35,100 Of the labor union of the people.
296 00:12:35,100 --> 00:12:52,300 Are not
297 00:12:52,300 --> 00:12:54,200 the torturers, the military
298 00:12:54,200 --> 00:12:55,840 at the beginning of neoliberalism
299 00:12:55,840 --> 00:12:57,920 and that it was a basic condition
300 00:12:57,920 --> 00:12:59,440 that later you can talk about
301 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:02,080 the institutions, the economy
302 00:13:02,080 --> 00:13:04,440 and the subjectivities that neoliberalism created
303 00:13:04,440 --> 00:13:06,080 but the first was the violent
304 00:13:06,080 --> 00:13:07,720 introduction of this
305 00:13:07,720 --> 00:13:10,260 neoliberal counter-revolution
306 00:13:10,260 --> 00:13:12,080 If we take a step back
307 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:13,740 if neoliberalism was
308 00:13:13,740 --> 00:13:15,540 a form of capitalist counter-revolution
309 00:13:15,540 --> 00:13:17,040 where you introduced
310 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:18,700 neoliberalism with violence
311 00:13:18,700 --> 00:13:21,440 then you can look back a bit
312 00:13:21,440 --> 00:13:23,240 because it was just an aspect of
313 00:13:23,240 --> 00:13:25,540 what he meant by the global civil war
314 00:13:25,540 --> 00:13:28,040 because he meant that the global civil war
315 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:30,080 that is a concept
316 00:13:30,080 --> 00:13:31,180 that has its
317 00:13:31,180 --> 00:13:34,140 basis in Carl Schmitt
318 00:13:34,140 --> 00:13:35,740 and Hanna Arendt
319 00:13:36,500 --> 00:13:37,640 and they wrote
320 00:13:37,640 --> 00:13:39,360 at the same time, formulated
321 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:41,280 similar thoughts at the beginning of the 60s
322 00:13:41,280 --> 00:13:43,480 where they investigated the situation
323 00:13:43,480 --> 00:13:45,460 where the boundaries between war and peace
324 00:13:45,460 --> 00:13:46,500 have become more diffuse
325 00:13:46,500 --> 00:13:49,460 and that the role of the nationalists has changed and weakened
326 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:51,420 If we start with Carl Schmitt
327 00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:54,140 you talked a bit about him
328 00:13:54,140 --> 00:13:55,520 in the war skim episode
329 00:13:55,520 --> 00:13:58,160 he is a really good guy
330 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:00,020 he is a German jurist
331 00:14:00,020 --> 00:14:00,900 political thinker
332 00:14:00,900 --> 00:14:02,280 but also a nazi
333 00:14:02,280 --> 00:14:04,100 who among other things refused to be a Nazi
334 00:14:04,100 --> 00:14:05,160 after the war
335 00:14:05,160 --> 00:14:06,120 so he was hardcore
336 00:14:06,120 --> 00:14:09,700 and for him this concept of the global civil war
337 00:14:09,700 --> 00:14:11,220 is just a sovereign state crisis
338 00:14:11,220 --> 00:14:13,520 and that the traditional distribution of power
339 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,060 has collapsed and that there is a risk
340 00:14:15,060 --> 00:14:17,000 that the wailing conflict that arises
341 00:14:17,000 --> 00:14:19,480 that surrounds these international laws
342 00:14:19,480 --> 00:14:20,760 international context
343 00:14:21,420 --> 00:14:23,420 this distinction that he
344 00:14:23,420 --> 00:14:24,420 perhaps most known for
345 00:14:24,420 --> 00:14:25,420 this between friend and foe
346 00:14:25,420 --> 00:14:27,420 as he previously suggested
347 00:14:27,420 --> 00:14:30,100 for a way to regulate antagonistic relations
348 00:14:30,100 --> 00:14:31,420 between sovereign states
349 00:14:31,420 --> 00:14:33,420 that it no longer lasts
350 00:14:33,420 --> 00:14:35,420 and that borders
351 00:14:35,420 --> 00:14:36,420 border territories
352 00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:38,420 it becomes of less importance
353 00:14:38,420 --> 00:14:40,420 to regulate the enemy earlier
354 00:14:40,420 --> 00:14:42,420 and that's a bit of what he tries to catch with that concept
355 00:14:42,420 --> 00:14:44,420 and he is very much in on
356 00:14:44,420 --> 00:14:46,420 that earlier war regimes
357 00:14:46,420 --> 00:14:48,420 weapon powers
358 00:14:48,420 --> 00:14:49,420 have built on
359 00:14:49,420 --> 00:14:51,180 Great Britain built on control over it
360 00:14:51,180 --> 00:14:52,180 control over the sea
361 00:14:52,180 --> 00:14:53,180 lake
362 00:14:53,180 --> 00:14:55,180 and then came
363 00:14:55,180 --> 00:14:56,180 stood against
364 00:14:56,180 --> 00:14:57,180 for example
365 00:14:57,180 --> 00:14:58,180 Germany
366 00:14:58,180 --> 00:14:59,180 which was the country's power
367 00:14:59,180 --> 00:15:00,180 they had their tanks
368 00:15:00,180 --> 00:15:01,180 wagons
369 00:15:01,180 --> 00:15:02,180 they built on
370 00:15:02,180 --> 00:15:03,180 foreign countries
371 00:15:03,180 --> 00:15:04,180 but then
372 00:15:04,180 --> 00:15:05,180 when it became
373 00:15:05,180 --> 00:15:06,180 air and fire
374 00:15:06,180 --> 00:15:07,180 so
375 00:15:07,180 --> 00:15:08,180 also changed
376 00:15:08,180 --> 00:15:09,180 the relation to
377 00:15:09,180 --> 00:15:10,180 territories
378 00:15:10,180 --> 00:15:11,180 and now with
379 00:15:11,180 --> 00:15:12,180 nuclear war
380 00:15:12,180 --> 00:15:13,180 and the atomic bomb
381 00:15:13,180 --> 00:15:15,180 and even more today
382 00:15:15,180 --> 00:15:16,180 like with
383 00:15:16,180 --> 00:15:17,180 with drones
384 00:15:17,180 --> 00:15:18,180 and
385 00:15:18,180 --> 00:15:19,180 all missiles
386 00:15:19,180 --> 00:15:20,180 so it means
387 00:15:20,180 --> 00:15:21,180 that
388 00:15:21,180 --> 00:15:22,180 that
389 00:15:22,180 --> 00:15:23,180 territorial
390 00:15:23,180 --> 00:15:24,180 control
391 00:15:24,180 --> 00:15:25,180 becomes
392 00:15:25,180 --> 00:15:26,180 something completely
393 00:15:26,180 --> 00:15:27,180 different today
394 00:15:27,180 --> 00:15:28,180 the role of war
395 00:15:28,180 --> 00:15:29,180 is completely
396 00:15:29,180 --> 00:15:30,180 changed
397 00:15:30,180 --> 00:15:31,180 and that
398 00:15:31,180 --> 00:15:32,180 but we see it clearly today
399 00:15:32,180 --> 00:15:33,180 where
400 00:15:33,180 --> 00:15:34,180 Israel
401 00:15:34,180 --> 00:15:35,180 conducts
402 00:15:35,180 --> 00:15:36,180 like a war
403 00:15:36,180 --> 00:15:37,180 against
404 00:15:37,180 --> 00:15:38,180 Hamas
405 00:15:38,180 --> 00:15:39,180 Hezbollah
406 00:15:39,180 --> 00:15:40,180 rebels
407 00:15:40,180 --> 00:15:41,180 in Yemen
408 00:15:41,180 --> 00:15:42,180 as everyone
409 00:15:42,180 --> 00:15:43,180 may have
410 00:15:43,180 --> 00:15:44,180 some
411 00:15:44,180 --> 00:15:45,180 support from Iran
412 00:15:45,180 --> 00:15:46,180 but which is not
413 00:15:46,180 --> 00:15:47,180 regular armies
414 00:15:47,180 --> 00:15:48,180 in any way
415 00:15:48,180 --> 00:15:49,180 but it is
416 00:15:49,180 --> 00:15:50,180 irregular
417 00:15:50,180 --> 00:15:51,180 fighting
418 00:15:51,180 --> 00:15:52,180 but which has
419 00:15:52,180 --> 00:15:53,180 access to
420 00:15:53,180 --> 00:15:54,180 drones
421 00:15:54,180 --> 00:15:55,180 to such good
422 00:15:55,180 --> 00:15:56,180 weapon equipment
423 00:15:56,180 --> 00:15:57,180 now that they are
424 00:15:57,180 --> 00:15:58,180 capable of
425 00:15:58,180 --> 00:15:59,180 causing Israel
426 00:15:59,180 --> 00:16:00,180 great damage
427 00:16:00,180 --> 00:16:01,180 back
428 00:16:01,180 --> 00:16:02,180 exactly
429 00:16:02,180 --> 00:16:03,180 that they can
430 00:16:03,180 --> 00:16:04,180 get through
431 00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:05,180 this missile defense
432 00:16:05,180 --> 00:16:06,180 and that they
433 00:16:06,180 --> 00:16:07,180 are so advanced
434 00:16:07,180 --> 00:16:08,180 so
435 00:16:08,180 --> 00:16:09,180 Lazzarato
436 00:16:09,180 --> 00:16:10,180 and even Carl Schmitt
437 00:16:10,180 --> 00:16:11,180 would in one way
438 00:16:11,180 --> 00:16:12,180 describe this
439 00:16:12,180 --> 00:16:13,180 more like a
440 00:16:13,180 --> 00:16:14,180 regional
441 00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:15,180 civil war
442 00:16:15,180 --> 00:16:16,180 than
443 00:16:16,180 --> 00:16:17,180 a war
444 00:16:17,180 --> 00:16:18,180 so to speak
445 00:16:18,180 --> 00:16:19,180 because it is
446 00:16:19,180 --> 00:16:20,180 something that
447 00:16:20,180 --> 00:16:21,180 happens
448 00:16:21,180 --> 00:16:22,180 through
449 00:16:22,180 --> 00:16:23,180 nations
450 00:16:23,180 --> 00:16:24,180 and it is not
451 00:16:24,180 --> 00:16:25,180 between
452 00:16:25,180 --> 00:16:26,180 sovereign
453 00:16:26,180 --> 00:16:27,180 nations
454 00:16:27,180 --> 00:16:28,180 this
455 00:16:28,180 --> 00:16:29,180 kind of
456 00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:30,180 happens
457 00:16:30,180 --> 00:16:31,180 in that way
458 00:16:31,180 --> 00:16:32,180 war
459 00:16:32,180 --> 00:16:33,180 no and exactly
460 00:16:33,180 --> 00:16:34,180 so it's a little bit
461 00:16:34,180 --> 00:16:35,180 what Hannah Arendt
462 00:16:35,180 --> 00:16:36,180 is also
463 00:16:36,180 --> 00:16:37,180 talking about
464 00:16:37,180 --> 00:16:38,180 just that
465 00:16:38,180 --> 00:16:39,180 with the
466 00:16:39,180 --> 00:16:40,180 total war
467 00:16:40,180 --> 00:16:41,180 during the
468 00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:42,180 First World War
469 00:16:42,180 --> 00:16:43,180 it also became
470 00:16:43,180 --> 00:16:44,180 so that
471 00:16:44,180 --> 00:16:45,180 the distinction
472 00:16:45,180 --> 00:16:46,180 between military
473 00:16:46,180 --> 00:16:47,180 and civilian
474 00:16:47,180 --> 00:16:48,180 and soldiers
475 00:16:48,180 --> 00:16:49,180 and civilians
476 00:16:49,180 --> 00:16:50,180 that there
477 00:16:50,180 --> 00:16:51,180 was a
478 00:16:51,180 --> 00:16:52,180 a way
479 00:16:52,180 --> 00:16:53,180 of war
480 00:16:53,180 --> 00:16:54,180 similar to
481 00:16:54,180 --> 00:16:55,180 what Rome
482 00:16:55,180 --> 00:16:56,180 used against
483 00:16:56,180 --> 00:16:57,180 Carthage
484 00:16:57,180 --> 00:16:58,180 to completely
485 00:16:58,180 --> 00:16:59,180 eradicate
486 00:16:59,180 --> 00:17:00,180 it from
487 00:17:00,180 --> 00:17:01,180 the surface
488 00:17:01,180 --> 00:17:02,180 of the earth
489 00:17:02,180 --> 00:17:03,180 and that's
490 00:17:03,180 --> 00:17:04,180 exactly
491 00:17:04,180 --> 00:17:05,180 what we can
492 00:17:05,180 --> 00:17:06,180 see now
493 00:17:06,180 --> 00:17:07,180 also
494 00:17:07,180 --> 00:17:08,180 in Gaza
495 00:17:08,180 --> 00:17:09,180 that it is
496 00:17:09,180 --> 00:17:10,180 Israel
497 00:17:10,180 --> 00:17:11,180 that completely
498 00:17:11,180 --> 00:17:12,180 destroys it
499 00:17:12,180 --> 00:17:13,180 yes
500 00:17:13,180 --> 00:17:14,180 in total
501 00:17:14,180 --> 00:17:15,180 wars
502 00:17:15,180 --> 00:17:16,180 yes
503 00:17:16,180 --> 00:17:17,180 it really
504 00:17:17,180 --> 00:17:18,180 takes total
505 00:17:18,180 --> 00:17:19,180 power
506 00:17:19,180 --> 00:17:20,180 to defeat
507 00:17:20,180 --> 00:17:21,180 the whole
508 00:17:21,180 --> 00:17:22,180 people
509 00:17:22,180 --> 00:17:23,180 the whole
510 00:17:23,180 --> 00:17:24,180 civilization
511 00:17:24,180 --> 00:17:25,180 to the
512 00:17:25,180 --> 00:17:26,180 end
513 00:17:26,180 --> 00:17:27,180 totally
514 00:17:27,180 --> 00:17:28,180 but
515 00:17:28,180 --> 00:17:29,180 there is
516 00:17:29,180 --> 00:17:30,180 something else
517 00:17:30,180 --> 00:17:31,180 here
518 00:17:31,180 --> 00:17:32,180 with
519 00:17:32,180 --> 00:17:33,180 Hannah Arendt
520 00:17:33,180 --> 00:17:34,180 and
521 00:17:34,180 --> 00:17:35,180 Lazzarato
522 00:17:35,180 --> 00:17:36,180 when they
523 00:17:36,180 --> 00:17:37,180 talk about
524 00:17:37,180 --> 00:17:38,180 this as
525 00:17:38,180 --> 00:17:39,180 the global
526 00:17:39,180 --> 00:17:40,180 civil war
527 00:17:40,180 --> 00:17:41,180 and it's
528 00:17:41,180 --> 00:17:42,180 also that
529 00:17:42,180 --> 00:17:43,180 there is
530 00:17:43,180 --> 00:17:44,180 a fundamental
531 00:17:44,180 --> 00:17:45,180 antagonism
532 00:17:45,180 --> 00:17:46,180 a fundamental
533 00:17:46,180 --> 00:17:47,180 conflict
534 00:17:47,180 --> 00:17:48,180 or like
535 00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:49,180 Hobbes
536 00:17:49,180 --> 00:17:50,180 and the contract
537 00:17:50,180 --> 00:17:51,180 theory
538 00:17:51,180 --> 00:17:52,180 he describes
539 00:17:52,180 --> 00:17:53,180 it as
540 00:17:53,180 --> 00:17:54,180 the condition
541 00:17:54,180 --> 00:17:55,180 is everyone's
542 00:17:55,180 --> 00:17:56,180 war against
543 00:17:56,180 --> 00:17:57,180 everyone
544 00:17:57,180 --> 00:17:58,180 and then
545 00:17:58,180 --> 00:17:59,180 comes
546 00:17:59,180 --> 00:18:00,180 a kind of
547 00:18:00,180 --> 00:18:01,180 threat
548 00:18:01,180 --> 00:18:02,180 and threatens
549 00:18:02,180 --> 00:18:03,180 everyone
550 00:18:03,180 --> 00:18:04,180 with death
551 00:18:04,180 --> 00:18:05,180 if they don't
552 00:18:05,180 --> 00:18:06,180 surrender
553 00:18:06,180 --> 00:18:07,180 but if they
554 00:18:07,180 --> 00:18:08,180 surrender
555 00:18:08,180 --> 00:18:09,180 he will
556 00:18:09,180 --> 00:18:10,180 guarantee
557 00:18:10,180 --> 00:18:11,180 their lives
558 00:18:11,180 --> 00:18:12,180 so they get
559 00:18:12,180 --> 00:18:13,180 rights
560 00:18:13,180 --> 00:18:14,180 against
561 00:18:14,180 --> 00:18:15,180 him
562 00:18:15,180 --> 00:18:16,180 being made
563 00:18:16,180 --> 00:18:17,180 sovereign
564 00:18:17,180 --> 00:18:18,180 the condition
565 00:18:18,180 --> 00:18:19,180 is everyone's
566 00:18:19,180 --> 00:18:20,180 war against
567 00:18:20,180 --> 00:18:21,180 everyone
568 00:18:21,180 --> 00:18:22,180 and then
569 00:18:22,180 --> 00:18:23,180 from that
570 00:18:23,180 --> 00:18:24,180 the state
571 00:18:24,180 --> 00:18:25,180 arises
572 00:18:25,180 --> 00:18:26,180 and the state's
573 00:18:26,180 --> 00:18:27,180 purpose
574 00:18:27,180 --> 00:18:28,180 is to
575 00:18:28,180 --> 00:18:29,180 crush
576 00:18:29,180 --> 00:18:30,180 or counter
577 00:18:30,180 --> 00:18:31,180 or control
578 00:18:31,180 --> 00:18:32,180 or administrate
579 00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:33,180 or hold
580 00:18:33,180 --> 00:18:34,180 down
581 00:18:34,180 --> 00:18:35,180 this civil war
582 00:18:35,180 --> 00:18:36,180 and Hannah Arendt
583 00:18:36,180 --> 00:18:37,180 she writes
584 00:18:37,180 --> 00:18:38,180 if the 19th century
585 00:18:38,180 --> 00:18:39,180 is described
586 00:18:39,180 --> 00:18:40,180 as something
587 00:18:40,180 --> 00:18:41,180 there are
588 00:18:41,180 --> 00:18:42,180 two big
589 00:18:42,180 --> 00:18:43,180 events
590 00:18:43,180 --> 00:18:44,180 it's the war
591 00:18:44,180 --> 00:18:45,180 and it's
592 00:18:45,180 --> 00:18:46,180 the revolutions
593 00:18:46,180 --> 00:18:47,180 and
594 00:18:47,180 --> 00:18:48,180 it's
595 00:18:48,180 --> 00:18:49,180 a hybrid
596 00:18:49,180 --> 00:18:50,180 or it's
597 00:18:50,180 --> 00:18:51,180 between
598 00:18:51,180 --> 00:18:52,180 it's
599 00:18:52,180 --> 00:18:53,180 that the
600 00:18:53,180 --> 00:18:54,180 civil war
601 00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:55,180 can be
602 00:18:55,180 --> 00:18:56,180 the failed
603 00:18:56,180 --> 00:18:57,180 revolution
604 00:18:57,180 --> 00:18:58,180 or
605 00:18:58,180 --> 00:18:59,180 it's the same
606 00:18:59,180 --> 00:19:00,180 thing with
607 00:19:00,180 --> 00:19:01,180 Lazzaretto
608 00:19:01,180 --> 00:19:02,180 that he
609 00:19:02,180 --> 00:19:03,180 also writes
610 00:19:03,180 --> 00:19:04,180 a 19th century
611 00:19:04,180 --> 00:19:05,180 history
612 00:19:05,180 --> 00:19:06,180 during the
613 00:19:06,180 --> 00:19:07,180 18th century
614 00:19:07,180 --> 00:19:08,180 there are
615 00:19:08,180 --> 00:19:09,180 a number of
616 00:19:09,180 --> 00:19:10,180 workers
617 00:19:10,180 --> 00:19:11,180 revolts
618 00:19:11,180 --> 00:19:12,180 in Europe
619 00:19:12,180 --> 00:19:13,180 all are
620 00:19:13,180 --> 00:19:14,180 crushed
621 00:19:14,180 --> 00:19:15,180 no one
622 00:19:15,180 --> 00:19:16,180 succeeds
623 00:19:16,180 --> 00:19:17,180 but during the
624 00:19:17,180 --> 00:19:18,180 19th century
625 00:19:18,180 --> 00:19:19,180 the revolution
626 00:19:19,180 --> 00:19:20,180 was
627 00:19:20,180 --> 00:19:21,180 the revolution
628 00:19:21,180 --> 00:19:22,180 of the
629 00:19:22,180 --> 00:19:23,180 revolution
630 00:19:23,180 --> 00:19:24,180 from
631 00:19:24,180 --> 00:19:25,180 1917
632 00:19:25,180 --> 00:19:26,180 to
633 00:19:26,180 --> 00:19:27,180 we can
634 00:19:27,180 --> 00:19:28,180 take
635 00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:29,180 1956
636 00:19:29,180 --> 00:19:30,180 1968
637 00:19:30,180 --> 00:19:31,180 or
638 00:19:31,180 --> 00:19:32,180 2011
639 00:19:32,180 --> 00:19:33,180 or
640 00:19:33,180 --> 00:19:34,180 um
641 00:19:34,180 --> 00:19:35,180 forward
642 00:19:35,180 --> 00:19:36,180 you can
643 00:19:36,180 --> 00:19:37,180 see
644 00:19:37,180 --> 00:19:38,180 that
645 00:19:38,180 --> 00:19:39,180 it gets
646 00:19:39,180 --> 00:19:40,180 an international
647 00:19:40,180 --> 00:19:41,180 spread
648 00:19:41,180 --> 00:19:42,180 and that
649 00:19:42,180 --> 00:19:43,180 it's also
650 00:19:43,180 --> 00:19:44,180 because
651 00:19:44,180 --> 00:19:45,180 there is
652 00:19:45,180 --> 00:19:46,180 a fundamental
653 00:19:46,180 --> 00:19:47,180 antagonism
654 00:19:47,180 --> 00:19:48,180 that
655 00:19:48,180 --> 00:19:49,180 is
656 00:19:49,180 --> 00:19:50,180 there
657 00:19:50,180 --> 00:19:51,180 and
658 00:19:51,180 --> 00:19:52,180 think
659 00:19:52,180 --> 00:19:53,180 it
660 00:19:53,180 --> 00:19:54,180 that
661 00:19:54,180 --> 00:19:55,180 if you
662 00:19:55,180 --> 00:19:56,180 don't
663 00:19:56,180 --> 00:19:57,180 have
664 00:19:57,180 --> 00:19:58,180 the revolution
665 00:19:58,180 --> 00:19:59,180 on your
666 00:19:59,180 --> 00:20:00,180 horizon
667 00:20:00,180 --> 00:20:01,180 or as
668 00:20:01,180 --> 00:20:02,180 a
669 00:20:02,180 --> 00:20:03,180 thought
670 00:20:03,180 --> 00:20:04,180 then
671 00:20:04,180 --> 00:20:05,180 you don't
672 00:20:05,180 --> 00:20:06,180 understand
673 00:20:06,180 --> 00:20:07,180 this
674 00:20:07,180 --> 00:20:08,180 violent
675 00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:09,180 rupture
676 00:20:09,180 --> 00:20:10,180 is
677 00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:11,180 an
678 00:20:11,180 --> 00:20:12,180 essence
679 00:20:12,180 --> 00:20:13,180 in that
680 00:20:13,180 --> 00:20:14,180 way
681 00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:15,180 it's
682 00:20:15,180 --> 00:20:16,180 something
683 00:20:16,180 --> 00:20:17,180 that
684 00:20:17,180 --> 00:20:18,180 you can
685 00:20:18,180 --> 00:20:19,180 either
686 00:20:19,180 --> 00:20:20,180 do
687 00:20:20,180 --> 00:20:21,180 or do
688 00:20:21,180 --> 00:20:22,180 it
689 00:20:22,180 --> 00:20:23,180 to a
690 00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:24,180 motor
691 00:20:24,180 --> 00:20:25,180 that
692 00:20:25,180 --> 00:20:26,180 through
693 00:20:26,180 --> 00:20:27,180 fascism
694 00:20:27,180 --> 00:20:28,180 through
695 00:20:28,180 --> 00:20:29,180 these
696 00:20:29,180 --> 00:20:30,180 counterrevolutions
697 00:20:30,180 --> 00:20:31,180 direct
698 00:20:31,180 --> 00:20:32,180 it
699 00:20:32,180 --> 00:20:33,180 hanaren's
700 00:20:33,180 --> 00:20:34,180 take
701 00:20:34,180 --> 00:20:35,180 is
702 00:20:35,180 --> 00:20:36,180 that
703 00:20:36,180 --> 00:20:37,180 both
704 00:20:37,180 --> 00:20:38,180 liberalism
705 00:20:38,180 --> 00:20:39,180 and
706 00:20:39,180 --> 00:20:40,180 socialism
707 00:20:40,180 --> 00:20:41,180 or
708 00:20:41,180 --> 00:20:42,180 communism
709 00:20:42,180 --> 00:20:43,180 then rests
710 00:20:43,180 --> 00:20:44,180 on
711 00:20:44,180 --> 00:20:45,180 these
712 00:20:45,180 --> 00:20:46,180 two
713 00:20:46,180 --> 00:20:47,180 things
714 00:20:47,180 --> 00:20:48,180 that
715 00:20:48,180 --> 00:20:49,180 the revolution
716 00:20:49,180 --> 00:20:50,180 is
717 00:20:50,180 --> 00:20:51,180 the difference
718 00:20:51,180 --> 00:20:52,180 from
719 00:20:52,180 --> 00:20:53,180 reform
720 00:20:53,180 --> 00:20:54,180 is
721 00:20:54,180 --> 00:20:55,180 that
722 00:20:55,180 --> 00:20:56,180 it's
723 00:20:56,180 --> 00:20:57,180 a
724 00:20:57,180 --> 00:20:58,180 start
725 00:20:58,180 --> 00:20:59,180 on
726 00:20:59,180 --> 00:21:00,180 something
727 00:21:00,180 --> 00:21:01,180 new
728 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:02,180 that
729 00:21:02,180 --> 00:21:03,180 you
730 00:21:03,180 --> 00:21:04,180 draw
731 00:21:04,180 --> 00:21:05,180 a
732 00:21:05,180 --> 00:21:06,180 limit
733 00:21:06,180 --> 00:21:07,180 the
734 00:21:07,180 --> 00:21:08,180 old
735 00:21:08,180 --> 00:21:09,180 conclusion
736 00:21:09,180 --> 00:21:10,180 that
737 00:21:10,180 --> 00:21:11,180 here
738 00:21:11,180 --> 00:21:12,180 we start
739 00:21:12,180 --> 00:21:13,180 something
740 00:21:13,180 --> 00:21:14,180 completely
741 00:21:14,180 --> 00:21:15,180 that earlier
742 00:21:15,180 --> 00:21:16,180 so war and revolution
743 00:21:16,180 --> 00:21:17,180 always hung
744 00:21:17,180 --> 00:21:18,180 together
745 00:21:18,180 --> 00:21:19,180 so she takes examples
746 00:21:19,180 --> 00:21:20,180 from the american
747 00:21:20,180 --> 00:21:21,180 revolution
748 00:21:21,180 --> 00:21:22,180 and the french
749 00:21:22,180 --> 00:21:23,180 revolution
750 00:21:23,180 --> 00:21:24,180 that for example
751 00:21:24,180 --> 00:21:25,180 the american
752 00:21:25,180 --> 00:21:26,180 revolution
753 00:21:26,180 --> 00:21:27,180 was preceded
754 00:21:27,180 --> 00:21:28,180 and followed
755 00:21:28,180 --> 00:21:29,180 by the form
756 00:21:29,180 --> 00:21:30,180 of a
757 00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:31,180 war of
758 00:21:31,180 --> 00:21:32,180 freedom
759 00:21:32,180 --> 00:21:33,180 and the french
760 00:21:33,180 --> 00:21:34,180 revolution
761 00:21:34,180 --> 00:21:35,180 led to a
762 00:21:35,180 --> 00:21:36,180 defence
763 00:21:36,180 --> 00:21:37,180 and attack
764 00:21:37,180 --> 00:21:38,180 war
765 00:21:38,180 --> 00:21:39,180 so napoleon
766 00:21:39,180 --> 00:21:40,180 came up
767 00:21:40,180 --> 00:21:41,180 on the
768 00:21:41,180 --> 00:21:42,180 historical
769 00:21:42,180 --> 00:21:43,180 scene
770 00:21:43,180 --> 00:21:44,180 and that's
771 00:21:44,180 --> 00:21:45,180 what she writes
772 00:21:45,180 --> 00:21:46,180 a kind of
773 00:21:46,180 --> 00:21:47,180 civil war
774 00:21:47,180 --> 00:21:48,180 that raged
775 00:21:48,180 --> 00:21:49,180 throughout the
776 00:21:49,180 --> 00:21:50,180 world
777 00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:51,180 so a kind of
778 00:21:51,180 --> 00:21:52,180 global civil war
779 00:21:52,180 --> 00:21:53,180 although with
780 00:21:53,180 --> 00:21:54,180 a few other words
781 00:21:54,180 --> 00:21:55,180 and that she means
782 00:21:55,180 --> 00:21:56,180 that war and
783 00:21:56,180 --> 00:21:57,180 revolutions
784 00:21:57,180 --> 00:21:58,180 they hang
785 00:21:58,180 --> 00:21:59,180 together
786 00:21:59,180 --> 00:22:00,180 but that the
787 00:22:00,180 --> 00:22:01,180 weight point
788 00:22:01,180 --> 00:22:02,180 during the
789 00:22:02,180 --> 00:22:03,180 90s
790 00:22:03,180 --> 00:22:04,180 was shot
791 00:22:04,180 --> 00:22:05,180 from
792 00:22:05,180 --> 00:22:06,180 the war
793 00:22:06,180 --> 00:22:07,180 against
794 00:22:07,180 --> 00:22:08,180 the revolution
795 00:22:08,180 --> 00:22:09,180 and in the same
796 00:22:09,180 --> 00:22:10,180 way we can
797 00:22:10,180 --> 00:22:11,180 also see
798 00:22:11,180 --> 00:22:12,180 that the
799 00:22:12,180 --> 00:22:13,180 possibility
800 00:22:13,180 --> 00:22:14,180 that after
801 00:22:14,180 --> 00:22:15,180 the first
802 00:22:15,180 --> 00:22:16,180 world war
803 00:22:16,180 --> 00:22:17,180 to the
804 00:22:17,180 --> 00:22:18,180 russian
805 00:22:18,180 --> 00:22:19,180 revolution
806 00:22:19,180 --> 00:22:20,180 when a
807 00:22:20,180 --> 00:22:21,180 sovereign
808 00:22:21,180 --> 00:22:22,180 power
809 00:22:22,180 --> 00:22:23,180 has lost
810 00:22:23,180 --> 00:22:24,180 its total
811 00:22:24,180 --> 00:22:25,180 legitimacy
812 00:22:25,180 --> 00:22:26,180 in what
813 00:22:26,180 --> 00:22:34,380 happens
814 00:22:34,380 --> 00:22:35,380 so for
815 00:22:35,380 --> 00:22:36,380 lazaretto
816 00:22:36,380 --> 00:22:37,380 there is
817 00:22:37,380 --> 00:22:38,380 in
818 00:22:38,380 --> 00:22:39,380 foucault
819 00:22:39,380 --> 00:22:40,380 and the whole
820 00:22:40,380 --> 00:22:41,380 breath
821 00:22:41,380 --> 00:22:42,380 to negri
822 00:22:42,380 --> 00:22:43,380 in this
823 00:22:43,380 --> 00:22:44,380 attempt
824 00:22:44,380 --> 00:22:45,380 to see
825 00:22:45,380 --> 00:22:46,380 this
826 00:22:46,380 --> 00:22:47,380 resistance
827 00:22:47,380 --> 00:22:48,380 as productive
828 00:22:48,380 --> 00:22:49,380 constructive
829 00:22:49,380 --> 00:22:50,380 self
830 00:22:50,380 --> 00:22:51,380 that pulls
831 00:22:51,380 --> 00:22:52,380 itself
832 00:22:52,380 --> 00:22:53,380 away
833 00:22:53,380 --> 00:22:54,380 that creates
834 00:22:54,380 --> 00:22:55,380 something else
835 00:22:55,380 --> 00:22:56,380 there is
836 00:22:56,380 --> 00:22:57,380 only violence
837 00:22:57,380 --> 00:22:58,380 as a way
838 00:22:58,380 --> 00:22:59,380 to defend
839 00:22:59,380 --> 00:23:00,380 against
840 00:23:00,380 --> 00:23:01,380 being
841 00:23:01,380 --> 00:23:02,380 hanged
842 00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:03,380 against
843 00:23:03,380 --> 00:23:04,380 what
844 00:23:04,380 --> 00:23:05,380 you can
845 00:23:05,380 --> 00:23:06,380 take the
846 00:23:06,380 --> 00:23:07,380 example
847 00:23:07,380 --> 00:23:08,380 with an
848 00:23:08,380 --> 00:23:09,380 occupied
849 00:23:09,380 --> 00:23:10,380 house
850 00:23:10,380 --> 00:23:11,380 you do
851 00:23:11,380 --> 00:23:12,380 not hit
852 00:23:12,380 --> 00:23:13,380 and take
853 00:23:13,380 --> 00:23:14,380 the house
854 00:23:14,380 --> 00:23:15,380 with violence
855 00:23:15,380 --> 00:23:16,380 but you
856 00:23:16,380 --> 00:23:17,380 take it
857 00:23:17,380 --> 00:23:18,380 into
858 00:23:18,380 --> 00:23:19,380 it
859 00:23:19,380 --> 00:23:20,380 then you
860 00:23:20,380 --> 00:23:21,380 have the right
861 00:23:21,380 --> 00:23:22,380 to defend
862 00:23:22,380 --> 00:23:23,380 because then
863 00:23:23,380 --> 00:23:24,380 it is
864 00:23:24,380 --> 00:23:25,380 violence
865 00:23:25,380 --> 00:23:26,380 comes from
866 00:23:26,380 --> 00:23:27,380 there
867 00:23:27,380 --> 00:23:28,380 no just
868 00:23:28,380 --> 00:23:29,380 I have
869 00:23:29,380 --> 00:23:30,380 in mind
870 00:23:30,380 --> 00:23:31,380 that there
871 00:23:31,380 --> 00:23:32,380 is a
872 00:23:32,380 --> 00:23:33,380 formulation
873 00:23:33,380 --> 00:23:34,380 I do
874 00:23:34,380 --> 00:23:35,380 not know
875 00:23:35,380 --> 00:23:36,380 what
876 00:23:36,380 --> 00:23:37,380 it is
877 00:23:37,380 --> 00:23:38,380 in the
878 00:23:38,380 --> 00:23:39,380 multitude
879 00:23:39,380 --> 00:23:40,380 there
880 00:23:40,380 --> 00:23:41,380 harten
881 00:23:41,380 --> 00:23:42,380 writes
882 00:23:42,380 --> 00:23:43,380 that violence
883 00:23:43,380 --> 00:23:44,380 can
884 00:23:44,380 --> 00:23:45,380 never
885 00:23:45,380 --> 00:23:46,380 create
886 00:23:46,380 --> 00:23:47,380 something
887 00:23:47,380 --> 00:23:48,380 it creates
888 00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:49,380 it is
889 00:23:49,380 --> 00:23:50,380 productive
890 00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:51,380 destitute
891 00:23:51,380 --> 00:23:52,380 the power
892 00:23:52,380 --> 00:23:53,380 builds
893 00:23:53,380 --> 00:23:54,380 on it
894 00:23:54,380 --> 00:23:55,380 withdrawing
895 00:23:55,380 --> 00:23:56,380 or
896 00:23:56,380 --> 00:23:57,380 the attack
897 00:23:57,380 --> 00:23:58,380 but
898 00:23:58,380 --> 00:23:59,380 Lazzarato
899 00:23:59,380 --> 00:24:00,380 has a
900 00:24:00,380 --> 00:24:01,380 so
901 00:24:01,380 --> 00:24:02,380 between
902 00:24:02,380 --> 00:24:03,380 position
903 00:24:03,380 --> 00:24:04,380 where
904 00:24:04,380 --> 00:24:05,380 he says
905 00:24:05,380 --> 00:24:06,380 that war
906 00:24:06,380 --> 00:24:07,380 is productive
907 00:24:07,380 --> 00:24:08,380 destruction
908 00:24:08,380 --> 00:24:09,380 is productive
909 00:24:09,380 --> 00:24:10,380 that it
910 00:24:10,380 --> 00:24:11,380 is
911 00:24:11,380 --> 00:24:12,380 with
912 00:24:12,380 --> 00:24:13,380 Schumpeter
913 00:24:13,380 --> 00:24:14,380 creative
914 00:24:14,380 --> 00:24:15,380 destruction
915 00:24:15,380 --> 00:24:16,380 that
916 00:24:16,380 --> 00:24:17,380 you
917 00:24:17,380 --> 00:24:18,380 can
918 00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:19,380 destroy
919 00:24:19,380 --> 00:24:20,380 things
920 00:24:20,380 --> 00:24:21,380 and
921 00:24:21,380 --> 00:24:22,380 produce
922 00:24:22,380 --> 00:24:23,380 something else
923 00:24:23,380 --> 00:24:24,380 in
924 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:25,380 its
925 00:24:25,380 --> 00:24:26,380 place
926 00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:27,380 yes
927 00:24:27,380 --> 00:24:28,380 but
928 00:24:28,380 --> 00:24:29,380 exactly
929 00:24:29,380 --> 00:24:30,380 and
930 00:24:30,380 --> 00:24:31,380 Lazzarato
931 00:24:31,380 --> 00:24:32,380 is
932 00:24:32,380 --> 00:24:33,380 in
933 00:24:33,380 --> 00:24:34,380 it
934 00:24:34,380 --> 00:24:35,380 that
935 00:24:35,380 --> 00:24:36,380 with
936 00:24:36,380 --> 00:24:37,380 the
937 00:24:37,380 --> 00:24:38,380 total
938 00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:39,380 war
939 00:24:39,380 --> 00:24:40,380 and
940 00:24:40,380 --> 00:24:41,380 this
941 00:24:41,380 --> 00:24:42,380 collapse
942 00:24:42,380 --> 00:24:43,380 of
943 00:24:43,380 --> 00:24:44,380 capital
944 00:24:44,380 --> 00:24:45,380 and
945 00:24:45,380 --> 00:24:46,380 the
946 00:24:46,380 --> 00:24:47,380 state
947 00:24:47,380 --> 00:24:48,380 especially
948 00:24:48,380 --> 00:24:49,380 during the
949 00:24:49,380 --> 00:24:50,380 post-war
950 00:24:50,380 --> 00:24:51,380 times
951 00:24:51,380 --> 00:24:52,380 at the same
952 00:24:52,380 --> 00:24:53,380 time
953 00:24:53,380 --> 00:24:54,380 have
954 00:24:54,380 --> 00:24:55,380 become
955 00:24:55,380 --> 00:24:56,380 destructive
956 00:24:56,380 --> 00:24:57,380 forces
957 00:24:57,380 --> 00:24:58,380 or
958 00:24:58,380 --> 00:24:59,380 destructive
959 00:24:59,380 --> 00:25:00,380 forces
960 00:25:00,380 --> 00:25:01,380 as
961 00:25:01,380 --> 00:25:02,380 he writes
962 00:25:02,380 --> 00:25:03,380 and that
963 00:25:03,380 --> 00:25:04,380 if
964 00:25:04,380 --> 00:25:05,380 in
965 00:25:05,380 --> 00:25:06,380 the
966 00:25:06,380 --> 00:25:07,380 past
967 00:25:07,380 --> 00:25:08,380 there
968 00:25:08,380 --> 00:25:09,380 was
969 00:25:09,380 --> 00:25:10,380 a
970 00:25:10,380 --> 00:25:11,380 socialist
971 00:25:11,380 --> 00:25:12,380 goal
972 00:25:12,380 --> 00:25:13,380 to
973 00:25:13,380 --> 00:25:14,380 free
974 00:25:14,380 --> 00:25:15,380 the
975 00:25:15,380 --> 00:25:16,380 production
976 00:25:16,380 --> 00:25:17,380 environment
977 00:25:17,380 --> 00:25:18,380 through
978 00:25:18,380 --> 00:25:19,380 mining
979 00:25:19,380 --> 00:25:20,380 and
980 00:25:20,380 --> 00:25:21,380 emissions
981 00:25:21,380 --> 00:25:22,380 and he
982 00:25:22,380 --> 00:25:23,380 means that
983 00:25:23,380 --> 00:25:24,380 the key
984 00:25:24,380 --> 00:25:25,380 to this
985 00:25:25,380 --> 00:25:26,380 can be found
986 00:25:26,380 --> 00:25:27,380 in the
987 00:25:27,380 --> 00:25:28,380 abstract
988 00:25:28,380 --> 00:25:29,380 work
989 00:25:29,380 --> 00:25:30,380 that is
990 00:25:30,380 --> 00:25:31,380 the ability
991 00:25:31,380 --> 00:25:32,380 of capitalism
992 00:25:32,380 --> 00:25:33,380 to deal
993 00:25:33,380 --> 00:25:34,380 with
994 00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:35,380 all
995 00:25:35,380 --> 00:25:36,380 abstract
996 00:25:36,380 --> 00:25:37,380 work
997 00:25:37,380 --> 00:25:38,380 and be able
998 00:25:38,380 --> 00:25:39,380 to extract
999 00:25:39,380 --> 00:25:40,380 quantifiable
1000 00:25:40,380 --> 00:25:41,380 value
1001 00:25:41,380 --> 00:25:42,380 from
1002 00:25:42,380 --> 00:25:43,380 all
1003 00:25:43,380 --> 00:25:44,380 forms
1004 00:25:44,380 --> 00:25:45,380 of
1005 00:25:45,380 --> 00:25:46,380 production
1006 00:25:46,380 --> 00:25:47,380 and
1007 00:25:47,380 --> 00:25:48,380 so on
1008 00:25:48,380 --> 00:25:49,380 so that
1009 00:25:49,380 --> 00:25:50,380 it can be
1010 00:25:50,380 --> 00:25:51,380 a
1011 00:25:51,380 --> 00:25:52,380 terribly
1012 00:25:52,380 --> 00:25:53,380 destructive
1013 00:25:53,380 --> 00:25:54,380 activity
1014 00:25:54,380 --> 00:25:55,380 as long
1015 00:25:55,380 --> 00:25:56,380 as it
1016 00:25:56,380 --> 00:25:57,380 generates
1017 00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:58,380 profit
1018 00:25:58,380 --> 00:25:59,380 capital is
1019 00:25:59,380 --> 00:26:00,380 equal
1020 00:26:00,380 --> 00:26:01,380 to that
1021 00:26:01,380 --> 00:26:02,380 because
1022 00:26:02,380 --> 00:26:03,380 it's
1023 00:26:03,380 --> 00:26:04,380 just
1024 00:26:04,380 --> 00:26:05,380 abstract
1025 00:26:05,380 --> 00:26:06,380 work
1026 00:26:06,380 --> 00:26:07,380 and
1027 00:26:07,380 --> 00:26:08,380 it's
1028 00:26:08,380 --> 00:26:09,380 the same
1029 00:26:09,380 --> 00:26:10,380 with
1030 00:26:10,380 --> 00:26:11,380 fascism
1031 00:26:11,380 --> 00:26:12,380 they also
1032 00:26:12,380 --> 00:26:13,380 mean
1033 00:26:13,380 --> 00:26:14,380 that
1034 00:26:14,380 --> 00:26:15,380 we
1035 00:26:15,380 --> 00:26:16,380 can
1036 00:26:16,380 --> 00:26:17,380 produce
1037 00:26:17,380 --> 00:26:18,380 something
1038 00:26:18,380 --> 00:26:19,380 extremely
1039 00:26:19,380 --> 00:26:20,380 destructive
1040 00:26:20,380 --> 00:26:21,380 something
1041 00:26:21,380 --> 00:26:22,380 that
1042 00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:23,380 leaks
1043 00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:24,380 out
1044 00:26:24,380 --> 00:26:25,380 of
1045 00:26:25,380 --> 00:26:26,380 a
1046 00:26:26,380 --> 00:26:27,380 river
1047 00:26:27,380 --> 00:26:28,380 and
1048 00:26:28,380 --> 00:26:29,380 kills
1049 00:26:29,380 --> 00:26:30,380 the
1050 00:26:30,380 --> 00:26:31,380 ecosystem
1051 00:26:31,380 --> 00:26:32,380 but
1052 00:26:32,380 --> 00:26:33,380 you
1053 00:26:33,380 --> 00:26:34,380 can
1054 00:26:34,380 --> 00:26:35,380 get
1055 00:26:35,380 --> 00:26:36,380 back
1056 00:26:36,380 --> 00:26:37,380 what
1057 00:26:37,380 --> 00:26:38,380 you
1058 00:26:38,380 --> 00:26:39,380 did
1059 00:26:39,380 --> 00:26:40,380 your
1060 00:26:40,380 --> 00:26:41,380 job
1061 00:26:41,380 --> 00:26:42,380 it's
1062 00:26:42,380 --> 00:26:43,380 easy
1063 00:26:43,380 --> 00:26:44,380 to
1064 00:26:44,380 --> 00:26:45,380 do
1065 00:26:45,380 --> 00:26:46,380 to
1066 00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:47,380 make
1067 00:26:47,380 --> 00:26:48,380 a
1068 00:26:48,380 --> 00:26:49,380 good
1069 00:26:49,380 --> 00:26:50,380 profit
1070 00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:51,380 and
1071 00:26:51,380 --> 00:26:52,380 you
1072 00:26:52,380 --> 00:26:53,380 can
1073 00:26:53,380 --> 00:26:54,380 do
1074 00:26:54,380 --> 00:26:55,380 everything
1075 00:26:55,380 --> 00:26:56,380 you
1076 00:26:56,380 --> 00:26:57,380 can
1077 00:26:57,380 --> 00:26:58,380 and
1078 00:26:58,380 --> 00:26:59,380 you
1079 00:26:59,380 --> 00:27:00,380 can
1080 00:27:00,380 --> 00:27:01,380 do
1081 00:27:01,380 --> 00:27:02,380 everything
1082 00:27:02,380 --> 00:27:03,380 you
1083 00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:05,380 want
1084 00:27:05,380 --> 00:27:06,580 so
1085 00:27:06,580 --> 00:27:07,380 that
1086 00:27:07,380 --> 00:27:08,380 in
1087 00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:09,380 the
1088 00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:10,380 future
1089 00:27:10,380 --> 00:27:11,380 you
1090 00:27:11,380 --> 00:27:12,380 can
1091 00:27:12,380 --> 00:27:13,380 make
1092 00:27:13,380 --> 00:27:14,180 more
1093 00:27:14,180 --> 00:27:17,180 It limits the profit-making process.
1094 00:27:17,180 --> 00:27:19,180 Exactly, that's the only thing.
1095 00:27:19,180 --> 00:27:22,180 He's also a bit into the term
1096 00:27:22,180 --> 00:27:24,180 capitalocene. He's not talking about
1097 00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:26,180 anthropocene, but capitalocene.
1098 00:27:26,180 --> 00:27:28,180 This is an example of that.
1099 00:27:28,180 --> 00:27:30,180 The capitalistic production
1100 00:27:30,180 --> 00:27:32,180 and its productive destructive forces
1101 00:27:32,180 --> 00:27:34,180 is what causes climate change
1102 00:27:34,180 --> 00:27:36,180 and ecological crises.
1103 00:27:36,180 --> 00:27:38,180 It's not human civilization
1104 00:27:38,180 --> 00:27:40,180 in some other sense
1105 00:27:40,180 --> 00:27:42,180 or a self-destructive tendency
1106 00:27:42,180 --> 00:27:44,180 for humans.
1107 00:27:44,180 --> 00:27:46,180 The profit motive
1108 00:27:46,180 --> 00:27:48,180 and today's development
1109 00:27:48,180 --> 00:27:50,180 is the result of a technology
1110 00:27:50,180 --> 00:27:52,180 based on a capitalist rationality
1111 00:27:52,180 --> 00:27:54,180 and a production based on
1112 00:27:54,180 --> 00:27:56,180 a ruthless profit-hunting
1113 00:27:56,180 --> 00:27:58,180 that becomes a war against nature
1114 00:27:58,180 --> 00:28:00,180 that is highly conscious
1115 00:28:00,180 --> 00:28:02,180 to enrich the capitalist class.
1116 00:28:02,180 --> 00:28:04,180 So the war is no longer
1117 00:28:04,180 --> 00:28:06,180 the civil war
1118 00:28:06,180 --> 00:28:08,180 is no longer something
1119 00:28:08,180 --> 00:28:10,180 that the capital
1120 00:28:10,180 --> 00:28:12,180 needs to hide
1121 00:28:12,180 --> 00:28:14,180 or rather has done
1122 00:28:14,180 --> 00:28:16,180 to its driving force.
1123 00:28:16,180 --> 00:28:18,180 He also takes up the central role
1124 00:28:18,180 --> 00:28:20,180 of the military-industrial complex
1125 00:28:20,180 --> 00:28:22,180 and focuses on
1126 00:28:22,180 --> 00:28:24,180 university research.
1127 00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:26,180 He thinks about
1128 00:28:26,180 --> 00:28:28,180 the technical development
1129 00:28:28,180 --> 00:28:30,180 the technical machine
1130 00:28:30,180 --> 00:28:32,180 as he calls it
1131 00:28:32,180 --> 00:28:34,180 how it is linked to
1132 00:28:34,180 --> 00:28:36,180 the social machine
1133 00:28:36,180 --> 00:28:38,180 the state, society
1134 00:28:38,180 --> 00:28:40,180 becomes a war machine
1135 00:28:40,180 --> 00:28:42,180 out of this.
1136 00:28:42,180 --> 00:28:44,180 He also thinks about
1137 00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:46,180 the combination that is created
1138 00:28:46,180 --> 00:28:48,180 and then he sees
1139 00:28:48,180 --> 00:28:50,180 how it is not only
1140 00:28:50,180 --> 00:28:52,180 creative destruction
1141 00:28:52,180 --> 00:28:54,180 that is the central
1142 00:28:54,180 --> 00:28:56,180 part of neoliberalism
1143 00:28:56,180 --> 00:28:58,180 to destroy in order to create something new
1144 00:28:58,180 --> 00:29:00,180 but also to create
1145 00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:02,180 in order to be able to destroy
1146 00:29:02,180 --> 00:29:04,180 that so much research
1147 00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:06,180 is being put in
1148 00:29:06,180 --> 00:29:08,180 to research military systems
1149 00:29:08,180 --> 00:29:10,180 that should be able
1150 00:29:10,180 --> 00:29:12,180 to monitor
1151 00:29:12,180 --> 00:29:14,180 the production engine
1152 00:29:14,180 --> 00:29:16,180 that it is not possible
1153 00:29:16,180 --> 00:29:18,180 to ignore in capitalism
1154 00:29:18,180 --> 00:29:20,180 how central this war production
1155 00:29:20,180 --> 00:29:22,180 is for production in general
1156 00:29:22,180 --> 00:29:24,180 for all forms of production.
1157 00:29:24,180 --> 00:29:26,180 No, he is
1158 00:29:26,180 --> 00:29:28,180 talking about the fact
1159 00:29:28,180 --> 00:29:30,180 that war has become
1160 00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:32,180 one of the main
1161 00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:34,180 production forces
1162 00:29:34,180 --> 00:29:36,180 because it consists of
1163 00:29:36,180 --> 00:29:38,180 a large-scale application
1164 00:29:38,180 --> 00:29:40,180 of science,
1165 00:29:40,180 --> 00:29:42,180 a sector that constantly expands
1166 00:29:42,180 --> 00:29:44,180 and there I think
1167 00:29:44,180 --> 00:29:46,180 there is another text
1168 00:29:46,180 --> 00:29:48,180 about the global civil war
1169 00:29:48,180 --> 00:29:50,180 that another autonomist
1170 00:29:50,180 --> 00:29:52,180 has written, Franco Berardi, Bifo
1171 00:29:52,180 --> 00:29:54,180 a rather short text
1172 00:29:54,180 --> 00:29:56,180 called The Coming Global Civil War
1173 00:29:56,180 --> 00:29:58,180 and there he is
1174 00:29:58,180 --> 00:30:00,180 talking about the fact that
1175 00:30:00,180 --> 00:30:02,180 in the current situation
1176 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:04,180 in terms of war
1177 00:30:04,180 --> 00:30:06,180 it is not only the states
1178 00:30:06,180 --> 00:30:08,180 that are global actors
1179 00:30:08,180 --> 00:30:10,180 but also the global economy
1180 00:30:10,180 --> 00:30:12,180 and since we live
1181 00:30:12,180 --> 00:30:14,180 in an era of financial capitalism
1182 00:30:14,180 --> 00:30:16,180 in their abstract world
1183 00:30:16,180 --> 00:30:18,180 no money is discriminated
1184 00:30:18,180 --> 00:30:20,180 as I said before
1185 00:30:20,180 --> 00:30:22,180 they have no smell
1186 00:30:22,180 --> 00:30:24,180 no matter if it comes from
1187 00:30:24,180 --> 00:30:26,180 criminal activity
1188 00:30:26,180 --> 00:30:28,180 from dirty war
1189 00:30:28,180 --> 00:30:30,180 or whatever it may be
1190 00:30:30,180 --> 00:30:32,180 so that it is inherent
1191 00:30:32,180 --> 00:30:34,180 and it is also possible
1192 00:30:34,180 --> 00:30:36,180 by the abstract world of finance
1193 00:30:36,180 --> 00:30:38,180 When we started talking about
1194 00:30:38,180 --> 00:30:40,180 a German anarchist
1195 00:30:40,180 --> 00:30:42,180 Hans Magnus Ensenberger
1196 00:30:42,180 --> 00:30:44,180 who left a few years ago
1197 00:30:44,180 --> 00:30:46,180 he released, I think it was 1993
1198 00:30:46,180 --> 00:30:48,180 that he released one
1199 00:30:48,180 --> 00:30:50,180 called The Coming Global Civil War
1200 00:30:50,180 --> 00:30:52,180 as a response to Krapotkin
1201 00:30:52,180 --> 00:30:54,180 The Coming Global Civil War
1202 00:30:54,180 --> 00:30:56,180 where he sees
1203 00:30:56,180 --> 00:30:58,180 that
1204 00:30:58,180 --> 00:31:00,180 the coming global civil war
1205 00:31:00,180 --> 00:31:02,180 is somewhere
1206 00:31:02,180 --> 00:31:04,180 constantly present
1207 00:31:04,180 --> 00:31:06,180 and can come
1208 00:31:06,180 --> 00:31:08,180 and he writes in this
1209 00:31:08,180 --> 00:31:10,180 that the real socialism
1210 00:31:10,180 --> 00:31:12,180 but also the social democracy
1211 00:31:12,180 --> 00:31:14,180 ends up in a crisis
1212 00:31:14,180 --> 00:31:16,180 and we get these shock doctrines
1213 00:31:16,180 --> 00:31:18,180 in country after country
1214 00:31:18,180 --> 00:31:20,180 that try to shock
1215 00:31:20,180 --> 00:31:22,180 a new liberalism
1216 00:31:22,180 --> 00:31:24,180 and we have civil war
1217 00:31:24,180 --> 00:31:26,180 and conflicts in
1218 00:31:26,180 --> 00:31:28,180 the Forna Yugoslavia
1219 00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:30,180 we have pogroms in Germany
1220 00:31:30,180 --> 00:31:32,180 and then he formulates
1221 00:31:32,180 --> 00:31:34,180 this about civil war
1222 00:31:34,180 --> 00:31:36,180 where he talks about
1223 00:31:36,180 --> 00:31:38,180 the molecular civil war
1224 00:31:38,180 --> 00:31:40,180 and what happens at Hobbes
1225 00:31:40,180 --> 00:31:42,180 where the civil war is everywhere
1226 00:31:42,180 --> 00:31:44,180 and then the sovereigns come
1227 00:31:44,180 --> 00:31:46,180 and he sees that
1228 00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:48,180 when the society breaks up
1229 00:31:48,180 --> 00:31:50,180 when the social peace
1230 00:31:50,180 --> 00:31:52,180 that the social democracy
1231 00:31:52,180 --> 00:31:54,180 the welfare state
1232 00:31:54,180 --> 00:31:56,180 stood for
1233 00:31:56,180 --> 00:31:58,180 that it still offered
1234 00:31:58,180 --> 00:32:00,180 some form of class compromise
1235 00:32:00,180 --> 00:32:02,180 negotiations
1236 00:32:02,180 --> 00:32:04,180 salt lake bathing agreements
1237 00:32:04,180 --> 00:32:06,180 collective agreements
1238 00:32:06,180 --> 00:32:08,180 the Swedish model
1239 00:32:08,180 --> 00:32:10,180 all will get it better
1240 00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:12,180 if you join the
1241 00:32:12,180 --> 00:32:14,180 Volvo, Wallenberg
1242 00:32:14,180 --> 00:32:16,180 Gyllenhammar
1243 00:32:16,180 --> 00:32:18,180 so let them
1244 00:32:18,180 --> 00:32:20,180 manage, divide
1245 00:32:20,180 --> 00:32:22,180 their production
1246 00:32:22,180 --> 00:32:24,180 make their profits
1247 00:32:24,180 --> 00:32:26,180 what is good for Volvo is good for Sweden
1248 00:32:26,180 --> 00:32:28,180 yes, and it will increase productivity
1249 00:32:28,180 --> 00:32:30,180 and then it will also be good for the workers
1250 00:32:30,180 --> 00:32:32,180 and when the social
1251 00:32:32,180 --> 00:32:34,180 deal has fallen
1252 00:32:34,180 --> 00:32:36,180 there is
1253 00:32:36,180 --> 00:32:38,180 also the breaking of
1254 00:32:38,180 --> 00:32:40,180 the welfare state
1255 00:32:40,180 --> 00:32:42,180 he says that this molecular civil war
1256 00:32:42,180 --> 00:32:44,180 can start from anywhere
1257 00:32:44,180 --> 00:32:46,180 in society
1258 00:32:46,180 --> 00:32:48,180 what breaks out in Yugoslavia
1259 00:32:48,180 --> 00:32:50,180 that it does not have to be something
1260 00:32:50,180 --> 00:32:52,180 that comes from outside
1261 00:32:52,180 --> 00:32:54,180 it has broken out in the metropolises
1262 00:32:54,180 --> 00:32:56,180 and has been going on for a long time
1263 00:32:56,180 --> 00:32:58,180 he says that he sees it
1264 00:32:58,180 --> 00:33:00,180 from gang wars to
1265 00:33:00,180 --> 00:33:02,180 football supporters fighting
1266 00:33:02,180 --> 00:33:04,180 or insecurity on the streets
1267 00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:06,180 or clots on the subway
1268 00:33:06,180 --> 00:33:08,180 he finds these tracks
1269 00:33:08,180 --> 00:33:10,180 just like Krapotkin
1270 00:33:10,180 --> 00:33:12,180 walks around and tracks
1271 00:33:12,180 --> 00:33:14,180 the help of people who help each other
1272 00:33:14,180 --> 00:33:16,180 then he sees these
1273 00:33:16,180 --> 00:33:18,180 signs on
1274 00:33:18,180 --> 00:33:20,180 now it breaks out
1275 00:33:20,180 --> 00:33:22,180 the war of civil war does not come from outside
1276 00:33:22,180 --> 00:33:24,180 it is not
1277 00:33:24,180 --> 00:33:26,180 a virus that someone
1278 00:33:26,180 --> 00:33:28,180 brings home
1279 00:33:28,180 --> 00:33:30,180 it is something
1280 00:33:30,180 --> 00:33:32,180 it is a process that goes on
1281 00:33:32,180 --> 00:33:34,180 and it is always a minority
1282 00:33:34,180 --> 00:33:36,180 that starts it
1283 00:33:36,180 --> 00:33:38,180 and
1284 00:33:38,180 --> 00:33:40,180 starts it
1285 00:33:40,180 --> 00:33:42,180 and then it gets spread
1286 00:33:42,180 --> 00:33:44,180 in society
1287 00:33:44,180 --> 00:33:46,180 so he sees it as a kind of
1288 00:33:46,180 --> 00:33:48,180 social virus
1289 00:33:48,180 --> 00:33:50,180 that it differs from the thirties
1290 00:33:50,180 --> 00:33:52,180 he means that rituals were needed
1291 00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:54,180 parades, uniforms
1292 00:33:54,180 --> 00:33:56,180 programs and promises
1293 00:33:56,180 --> 00:33:58,180 but it does not need this new
1294 00:33:58,180 --> 00:34:00,180 so that is his way of thinking
1295 00:34:00,180 --> 00:34:02,180 this collapse after welfare
1296 00:34:02,180 --> 00:34:04,180 and it feels like
1297 00:34:04,180 --> 00:34:06,180 he did not get it right then
1298 00:34:06,180 --> 00:34:08,179 and then he starts
1299 00:34:08,179 --> 00:34:10,179 this thirty years later
1300 00:34:10,179 --> 00:34:12,179 and compares it with the social panic
1301 00:34:12,179 --> 00:34:14,179 that is around
1302 00:34:14,179 --> 00:34:16,179 everything from the uprisings in Great Britain
1303 00:34:16,179 --> 00:34:18,179 to how the right describes
1304 00:34:18,179 --> 00:34:20,179 the suburbs
1305 00:34:20,179 --> 00:34:22,179 or the Easter uprisings
1306 00:34:22,179 --> 00:34:24,179 so he has that
1307 00:34:24,179 --> 00:34:26,179 the idea that
1308 00:34:26,179 --> 00:34:28,179 the war of civil war is so close
1309 00:34:28,179 --> 00:34:30,179 it has become central
1310 00:34:30,179 --> 00:34:32,179 in the project all the time
1311 00:34:32,179 --> 00:34:34,179 somewhere
1312 00:34:34,179 --> 00:34:36,179 and they have no new social peace
1313 00:34:36,179 --> 00:34:38,179 but it is essential
1314 00:34:38,179 --> 00:34:40,179 for their capitalism
1315 00:34:40,179 --> 00:34:42,179 it is essential
1316 00:34:42,179 --> 00:34:44,179 and the only thing they can solve it with
1317 00:34:44,179 --> 00:34:46,179 is to
1318 00:34:46,179 --> 00:34:48,179 fight the civil war
1319 00:34:48,179 --> 00:34:50,179 with a total war back
1320 00:34:50,179 --> 00:34:52,179 to take gas
1321 00:34:52,179 --> 00:34:54,179 to every front
1322 00:34:54,179 --> 00:34:56,179 to throw out
1323 00:34:56,179 --> 00:34:58,180 to close the borders
1324 00:34:58,180 --> 00:35:00,180 to shoot away
1325 00:35:00,180 --> 00:35:02,180 to burrow in
1326 00:35:02,180 --> 00:35:04,180 to enter and remove zones
1327 00:35:04,180 --> 00:35:06,180 surveillance zones
1328 00:35:06,180 --> 00:35:08,180 there are no other ways
1329 00:35:08,180 --> 00:35:10,180 for them to handle
1330 00:35:10,180 --> 00:35:12,180 this civil war
1331 00:35:12,180 --> 00:35:14,180 that is going on
1332 00:35:14,180 --> 00:35:16,180 no, and there you can say
1333 00:35:16,180 --> 00:35:18,180 like when Elon Musk wrote
1334 00:35:18,180 --> 00:35:20,180 that the civil war is inevitable
1335 00:35:20,180 --> 00:35:22,180 it is inevitable
1336 00:35:22,180 --> 00:35:24,180 because from the capital's point of view
1337 00:35:24,180 --> 00:35:26,180 it is inevitable
1338 00:35:26,180 --> 00:35:28,180 and it is those who initiate it
1339 00:35:28,180 --> 00:35:30,180 and there I think about
1340 00:35:30,180 --> 00:35:32,180 what Lazzarato
1341 00:35:32,180 --> 00:35:34,180 writes about fascism
1342 00:35:34,180 --> 00:35:36,180 I think he has a very interesting fascist analysis
1343 00:35:36,180 --> 00:35:38,180 and he says that since the big financial crisis of 2008
1344 00:35:38,180 --> 00:35:40,180 and this
1345 00:35:40,180 --> 00:35:42,180 subsequent state of
1346 00:35:42,180 --> 00:35:44,180 permanent instability
1347 00:35:44,180 --> 00:35:46,180 as you talked a lot about in this episode
1348 00:35:46,180 --> 00:35:48,180 of the war regime
1349 00:35:48,180 --> 00:35:50,180 with these collaborations in the crisis
1350 00:35:50,180 --> 00:35:52,180 he says that globalization has only been able to produce
1351 00:35:52,180 --> 00:35:54,180 an identitarian logic
1352 00:35:54,180 --> 00:35:56,180 and that is due to the fact that the capital
1353 00:35:56,180 --> 00:35:58,180 after this financial crisis needed to be protected by the state
1354 00:35:58,180 --> 00:36:00,180 and the state in turn can only get its
1355 00:36:00,180 --> 00:36:02,180 business with different identities
1356 00:36:02,180 --> 00:36:04,180 via nationalism, fascism, racism and sexism
1357 00:36:04,180 --> 00:36:06,180 but also
1358 00:36:06,180 --> 00:36:08,180 he says that things like
1359 00:36:08,180 --> 00:36:10,180 the Arab Spring in 2011
1360 00:36:10,180 --> 00:36:12,180 the uproar in Brazil in 2013
1361 00:36:12,180 --> 00:36:14,180 and Greece in 2015
1362 00:36:14,180 --> 00:36:16,180 that it deepens the debt crisis
1363 00:36:16,180 --> 00:36:18,180 but also that there arose some form of conflict-oriented subjectivity
1364 00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:20,180 and that in some way pointed to
1365 00:36:20,180 --> 00:36:22,180 the possibility of a crime with the capitalist order
1366 00:36:22,180 --> 00:36:24,180 and even if these different movements
1367 00:36:24,180 --> 00:36:26,180 in the different countries were hardly system-threatening
1368 00:36:26,180 --> 00:36:28,180 then the capitalist class
1369 00:36:28,180 --> 00:36:30,180 was still so scared
1370 00:36:30,180 --> 00:36:32,180 that they started to play out
1371 00:36:32,180 --> 00:36:34,180 these cards that we have talked about
1372 00:36:34,180 --> 00:36:36,180 new fascism, racism, sexism
1373 00:36:36,180 --> 00:36:38,180 war rhetoric
1374 00:36:38,180 --> 00:36:40,180 and that racism became one of the main tools
1375 00:36:40,180 --> 00:36:42,180 to strategically lead this war
1376 00:36:42,180 --> 00:36:44,180 against the population
1377 00:36:44,180 --> 00:36:46,180 what he says that I had not
1378 00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:48,180 thought of before
1379 00:36:48,180 --> 00:36:50,180 is that he means that historical fascism
1380 00:36:50,180 --> 00:36:52,180 in some way led to the total war
1381 00:36:52,180 --> 00:36:54,180 but the fascism that is growing now
1382 00:36:54,180 --> 00:36:56,180 is rather a way to lead a war against the population
1383 00:36:56,180 --> 00:36:58,180 according to
1384 00:36:58,180 --> 00:37:00,180 war logic
1385 00:37:00,180 --> 00:37:02,180 and this can take a lot of different
1386 00:37:02,180 --> 00:37:04,180 expressions, this newly born fascism
1387 00:37:04,180 --> 00:37:06,180 he means that it is wrong
1388 00:37:06,180 --> 00:37:08,180 it can be called right-wing populism
1389 00:37:08,180 --> 00:37:10,180 or right-wing extremism
1390 00:37:10,180 --> 00:37:12,180 but what is the red thread
1391 00:37:12,180 --> 00:37:14,180 is that nowadays it is national-liberalism
1392 00:37:14,180 --> 00:37:16,180 and not national-socialism
1393 00:37:16,180 --> 00:37:18,180 so now when the fascists do not need to
1394 00:37:18,180 --> 00:37:20,180 relate to any form of organized revolutionary left
1395 00:37:20,180 --> 00:37:22,180 then you do not need to take into account
1396 00:37:22,180 --> 00:37:24,180 the working class socio-economic demands
1397 00:37:24,180 --> 00:37:26,180 in that way
1398 00:37:26,180 --> 00:37:28,180 but in its core it is neoliberal
1399 00:37:28,180 --> 00:37:30,180 and so it can not be
1400 00:37:30,180 --> 00:37:32,180 a welfare
1401 00:37:32,180 --> 00:37:34,180 as for example Nazi Germany could do
1402 00:37:34,180 --> 00:37:36,180 for their white citizens
1403 00:37:36,180 --> 00:37:38,180 they can offer you some kind of illusory national self-confidence
1404 00:37:38,180 --> 00:37:40,180 some kind of
1405 00:37:40,180 --> 00:37:42,180 poisonous, non-substantial quality
1406 00:37:42,180 --> 00:37:44,180 that you could not see there in England
1407 00:37:44,180 --> 00:37:46,180 during the uprising
1408 00:37:46,180 --> 00:37:48,180 but the most important thing they do
1409 00:37:48,180 --> 00:37:50,180 is that they subordinate the relationship
1410 00:37:50,180 --> 00:37:52,180 between the ruling and the ruling
1411 00:37:52,180 --> 00:37:54,180 to a kind of civil war
1412 00:37:54,180 --> 00:37:56,180 based on enemy-friend logic
1413 00:37:56,180 --> 00:37:58,180 and the fascists clearly see
1414 00:37:58,180 --> 00:38:00,180 the stranger, the migrant, the refugee
1415 00:38:00,180 --> 00:38:02,180 the Muslim as both the internal
1416 00:38:02,180 --> 00:38:04,180 and the external enemy
1417 00:38:04,180 --> 00:38:06,180 but in the same way they fight at least as hard to maintain
1418 00:38:06,180 --> 00:38:08,180 the heterosexuality
1419 00:38:08,180 --> 00:38:10,180 in the fight against the HBQI movement
1420 00:38:10,180 --> 00:38:12,180 or maintain the patriarchy
1421 00:38:12,180 --> 00:38:14,180 so in other words it is both
1422 00:38:14,180 --> 00:38:16,180 a kind of dedicated national community
1423 00:38:16,180 --> 00:38:18,180 but also a front
1424 00:38:18,180 --> 00:38:20,180 that you fight against
1425 00:38:20,180 --> 00:38:22,180 enemies that in some way threaten this
1426 00:38:22,180 --> 00:38:24,180 fictitious, fictitious, popular unit
1427 00:38:24,180 --> 00:38:26,180 and then it is, as I mentioned
1428 00:38:26,180 --> 00:38:28,180 the Muslims, the HBQI movement, the feminists
1429 00:38:28,180 --> 00:38:30,180 and the cultural marxists
1430 00:38:30,180 --> 00:38:32,180 and all of this, it fits the capital
1431 00:38:32,180 --> 00:38:34,180 as a glove because there is a structural demand
1432 00:38:34,180 --> 00:38:36,180 for scapegoats
1433 00:38:36,180 --> 00:38:38,180 to point out someone for the misery of neoliberalism
1434 00:38:38,180 --> 00:38:40,180 because they will not do anything about it
1435 00:38:40,180 --> 00:38:42,180 and what he also raises
1436 00:38:42,180 --> 00:38:44,180 is that
1437 00:38:44,180 --> 00:38:46,180 we do not own anything today
1438 00:38:46,180 --> 00:38:48,180 we are still a proletariat
1439 00:38:48,180 --> 00:38:50,180 we have debts to the bank
1440 00:38:50,180 --> 00:38:52,180 if we own anything
1441 00:38:52,180 --> 00:38:54,180 but the only thing
1442 00:38:54,180 --> 00:38:56,180 that we own
1443 00:38:56,180 --> 00:38:58,180 in a nationalist remark
1444 00:38:58,180 --> 00:39:00,180 is
1445 00:39:00,180 --> 00:39:02,180 to be Swedish
1446 00:39:02,180 --> 00:39:04,180 to feel that we own the right
1447 00:39:04,180 --> 00:39:06,180 to this country
1448 00:39:06,180 --> 00:39:08,180 this abstract right
1449 00:39:08,180 --> 00:39:10,180 what does it mean to have the right to this country
1450 00:39:10,180 --> 00:39:12,180 because you can not buy and sell this country
1451 00:39:12,180 --> 00:39:14,180 it is just
1452 00:39:14,180 --> 00:39:16,180 it is not such a country right
1453 00:39:16,180 --> 00:39:18,180 but there is still
1454 00:39:18,180 --> 00:39:20,180 a perception among people
1455 00:39:20,180 --> 00:39:22,180 that when people come here
1456 00:39:22,180 --> 00:39:24,180 their right to the country
1457 00:39:24,180 --> 00:39:26,180 is taken from people
1458 00:39:26,180 --> 00:39:28,180 who they consider not to have the right to the country
1459 00:39:28,180 --> 00:39:30,180 so there
1460 00:39:30,180 --> 00:39:32,180 it is a very abstract threat
1461 00:39:32,180 --> 00:39:34,180 what it is that is threatened
1462 00:39:34,180 --> 00:39:36,180 what it is for property
1463 00:39:36,180 --> 00:39:38,180 what it is for people
1464 00:39:38,180 --> 00:39:40,180 who are supposed to be affected
1465 00:39:40,180 --> 00:39:42,180 who are supposed to be deprived
1466 00:39:42,180 --> 00:39:44,180 who give them
1467 00:39:44,180 --> 00:39:46,180 self-esteem
1468 00:39:46,180 --> 00:39:48,180 and value
1469 00:39:48,180 --> 00:39:50,180 that whatever they are
1470 00:39:50,180 --> 00:39:52,180 they may not own their house
1471 00:39:52,180 --> 00:39:54,180 they may not own their car
1472 00:39:54,180 --> 00:39:56,180 they may not be able to make an economic career
1473 00:39:56,180 --> 00:39:58,180 but they have at least
1474 00:39:58,180 --> 00:40:00,180 they at least own the right to the country
1475 00:40:00,180 --> 00:40:02,180 they have a national identity
1476 00:40:02,180 --> 00:40:04,180 yes we are Sweden
1477 00:40:04,180 --> 00:40:06,180 this is our country
1478 00:40:06,180 --> 00:40:08,180 we have a national identity
1479 00:40:08,180 --> 00:40:10,180 it is just
1480 00:40:10,180 --> 00:40:12,180 very
1481 00:40:12,180 --> 00:40:14,180 abstract
1482 00:40:14,180 --> 00:40:16,180 I think it will get very concrete
1483 00:40:16,180 --> 00:40:18,180 you wrote well with
1484 00:40:18,180 --> 00:40:20,180 this racist operation in England
1485 00:40:20,180 --> 00:40:22,180 in the weekend
1486 00:40:22,180 --> 00:40:24,180 that these operations were concentrated
1487 00:40:24,180 --> 00:40:26,180 in jobs in North England
1488 00:40:26,180 --> 00:40:28,180 in areas that are deindustrialized
1489 00:40:28,180 --> 00:40:30,180 and populated
1490 00:40:30,180 --> 00:40:32,180 and low unemployment
1491 00:40:32,180 --> 00:40:34,180 but the refugee response
1492 00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:41,180 it's quite easy to see that these are affections that are connected to the neoliberal destruction of the society.
1493 00:40:41,180 --> 00:40:48,180 Frustration, hatred, jealousy, anxiety and fear that got their spark in the terrible knife war in Southport.
1494 00:40:48,180 --> 00:40:55,180 And that via the extreme right, disinformation and hate rhetoric, was linked to a form of fascist enemy-friend logic
1495 00:40:55,180 --> 00:41:00,180 where you suddenly saw racists and refugees being portrayed as enemies.
1496 00:41:00,180 --> 00:41:06,180 And this didn't come directly from the parliament, but from politicians and the right-wing media in England.
1497 00:41:06,180 --> 00:41:11,180 I've seen a lot of run-throughs from Daily Mail that really, as an example,
1498 00:41:11,180 --> 00:41:18,180 that completely undermined these racist beliefs with war rhetoric about how much migrants cost,
1499 00:41:18,180 --> 00:41:23,180 how they vote at the border, cause violence and steal jobs, and that you have slogans like Stop the Boats.
1500 00:41:23,180 --> 00:41:30,180 They've really picked this up. So it's really just a logical consequence of what's already happened.
1501 00:41:30,180 --> 00:41:35,180 It's a rhetoric that's already been used, but that took a step further.
1502 00:41:35,180 --> 00:41:54,970 Some others who use this term, the civil war, are also the Ticon, the French group that this podcast is always talking about.
1503 00:41:54,970 --> 00:41:59,970 Soon I'll be done with all of their books, then I'll never have to mention them again.
1504 00:41:59,970 --> 00:42:05,970 No, but they have a script that's called Introduction to the Civil War,
1505 00:42:05,970 --> 00:42:07,970 which came out in 2001.
1506 00:42:07,970 --> 00:42:12,970 And then there's George Agamben, who they're a few apprentices to.
1507 00:42:12,970 --> 00:42:20,970 He's also written one about Stasis, which is the term for the civil war in ancient Greece.
1508 00:42:20,970 --> 00:42:27,970 In the city of Polis, when different families were fighting each other,
1509 00:42:27,970 --> 00:42:34,970 there was a way to regulate how these conflicts would occur.
1510 00:42:34,970 --> 00:42:35,970 That's Stasis.
1511 00:42:35,970 --> 00:42:38,970 He developed a theory about civil wars.
1512 00:42:38,970 --> 00:42:46,970 And they say, just like Hannah Arendt says, that there are a lot of theories about war.
1513 00:42:46,970 --> 00:42:49,970 What is war? How should a war be conducted?
1514 00:42:49,970 --> 00:42:53,970 What is a just war, and what is an unjust war?
1515 00:42:53,970 --> 00:42:58,970 But there are no theories about what civil war is.
1516 00:42:58,970 --> 00:43:03,970 What is the border between civil war and revolution?
1517 00:43:03,970 --> 00:43:10,970 But they have a completely different description of civil war.
1518 00:43:10,970 --> 00:43:13,970 Yes, they almost turn to Lazzaro Ratto's argument.
1519 00:43:13,970 --> 00:43:19,970 They rather mean that civil war, they see it as a form of fundamental condition,
1520 00:43:19,970 --> 00:43:25,970 or something that happens on an existential level, and that the modern state is a reaction to.
1521 00:43:25,970 --> 00:43:29,970 And with civil war, they mean, like Agamben said, this with life forms,
1522 00:43:29,970 --> 00:43:32,970 a kind of free play with life forms, where there is an intensity,
1523 00:43:32,970 --> 00:43:39,970 a charge, political conflicts, confrontations, but also war, violence and civil war.
1524 00:43:39,970 --> 00:43:42,970 And that this interaction with intensity and charge,
1525 00:43:42,970 --> 00:43:47,970 it becomes civil war because there are no separations between men, women, civil, military,
1526 00:43:47,970 --> 00:43:53,970 and that the state, for an unnecessary war against civil war,
1527 00:43:53,970 --> 00:44:01,970 to passivize it, to re-channelize and passivize as soon as these political antagonisms rise in some way,
1528 00:44:01,970 --> 00:44:05,970 so the police are connected, and all forms of intensity, irregularity,
1529 00:44:05,970 --> 00:44:09,970 irregular possibilities, charging, everything must be fought.
1530 00:44:09,970 --> 00:44:16,970 So there is this basic idea that there is a constant contradiction,
1531 00:44:16,970 --> 00:44:20,970 but they almost see something positive in this contradiction,
1532 00:44:20,970 --> 00:44:25,970 that when different groups are formed, and they never talk about identities,
1533 00:44:25,970 --> 00:44:30,970 but it is not that it is about this group of beggars who stand against this group,
1534 00:44:30,970 --> 00:44:35,970 this group of motorcycle gangs, but rather different ways of living,
1535 00:44:35,970 --> 00:44:40,970 ways of living, ways of being, ways of doing things and being within each other.
1536 00:44:40,970 --> 00:44:45,970 When they meet other ways of doing things, other ways of being,
1537 00:44:45,970 --> 00:44:51,970 a friction arises between them, and those frictions are just as it says,
1538 00:44:51,970 --> 00:44:54,970 that is what they describe as civil war.
1539 00:44:54,970 --> 00:44:59,970 And civil war sounds so much more gruesome in many ways than in Swedish,
1540 00:44:59,970 --> 00:45:00,970 civil war.
1541 00:45:00,970 --> 00:45:06,970 Because it is just that there are civil conflicts in civil society,
1542 00:45:06,970 --> 00:45:10,970 or within societal tensions.
1543 00:45:10,970 --> 00:45:17,970 And that these tensions somewhere must be unloaded or unloaded in different ways.
1544 00:45:17,970 --> 00:45:20,970 Yes, precisely because the state should not lose control.
1545 00:45:20,970 --> 00:45:25,970 And you can see, for example, how the political antagonism in Sweden
1546 00:45:25,970 --> 00:45:29,970 can be reduced to compromises on the labor market, as we said in the early 20th century,
1547 00:45:29,970 --> 00:45:34,970 rather than to replace or passivize wild strikes or so.
1548 00:45:34,970 --> 00:45:37,970 Another example of this is from the capital side.
1549 00:45:37,970 --> 00:45:39,970 It is Spotify that became a form of passivization,
1550 00:45:39,970 --> 00:45:41,970 re-channelization of the entire pirate movement,
1551 00:45:41,970 --> 00:45:43,970 where the convenience of taking all the music in an app,
1552 00:45:43,970 --> 00:45:46,970 to a very large extent, killed the file sharing,
1553 00:45:46,970 --> 00:45:49,970 and then you had to pay for it instead.
1554 00:45:49,970 --> 00:45:53,970 Yes, they have a description here about these lifestyles,
1555 00:45:53,970 --> 00:45:57,970 that meeting a friend, meeting those who you share your lifestyle with,
1556 00:45:57,970 --> 00:45:59,970 it is a meeting of those who,
1557 00:45:59,970 --> 00:46:03,970 you know that my power grows from their power,
1558 00:46:03,970 --> 00:46:06,970 and their power, when it grows, then my power grows.
1559 00:46:06,970 --> 00:46:10,970 That we build our strength just by being together,
1560 00:46:10,970 --> 00:46:15,970 while meeting another lifestyle is meeting someone
1561 00:46:15,970 --> 00:46:17,970 that you feel that this is,
1562 00:46:17,970 --> 00:46:20,970 when my strength grows, then the other's weakens,
1563 00:46:20,970 --> 00:46:23,970 or when theirs grows, then mine weakens.
1564 00:46:23,970 --> 00:46:25,970 That we have both,
1565 00:46:25,970 --> 00:46:27,970 we have nazis on the street,
1566 00:46:27,970 --> 00:46:30,970 we know that there will be fewer buggers and flattos,
1567 00:46:30,970 --> 00:46:33,970 and muslims, and leftist groups on our streets,
1568 00:46:33,970 --> 00:46:35,970 but when it grows,
1569 00:46:35,970 --> 00:46:37,970 buggers, flattos, muslims,
1570 00:46:37,970 --> 00:46:39,970 leftist groups on the street,
1571 00:46:39,970 --> 00:46:41,970 we know that all of us,
1572 00:46:41,970 --> 00:46:43,970 we might strengthen each other,
1573 00:46:43,970 --> 00:46:45,970 in that remark,
1574 00:46:45,970 --> 00:46:47,970 we take the streets together,
1575 00:46:47,970 --> 00:46:48,970 in that way.
1576 00:46:48,970 --> 00:46:49,970 Now it was very identity-
1577 00:46:49,970 --> 00:46:51,970 Yes, now it became a little,
1578 00:46:51,970 --> 00:46:53,970 but that's just what it is with the lifestyle,
1579 00:46:53,970 --> 00:46:55,970 that Agamben is referring to,
1580 00:46:55,970 --> 00:46:57,970 that what they mean is,
1581 00:46:57,970 --> 00:47:01,970 that life can't be separated from its execution in any way,
1582 00:47:01,970 --> 00:47:05,970 that living can't be reduced to facts or identity,
1583 00:47:05,970 --> 00:47:07,970 but as you were talking about,
1584 00:47:07,970 --> 00:47:09,970 it's about opportunities to live in different ways,
1585 00:47:09,970 --> 00:47:10,970 about power,
1586 00:47:10,970 --> 00:47:13,970 and that the lifestyle doesn't relate to what I am,
1587 00:47:13,970 --> 00:47:15,970 as a form of identity,
1588 00:47:15,970 --> 00:47:18,970 but to how I am what I am.
1589 00:47:18,970 --> 00:47:21,970 And that's an interesting take,
1590 00:47:21,970 --> 00:47:24,970 because they don't talk so much about class,
1591 00:47:24,970 --> 00:47:26,970 they talk a lot about lifestyles,
1592 00:47:27,970 --> 00:47:30,970 and they don't even talk about revolutions,
1593 00:47:30,970 --> 00:47:32,970 so it's interesting that they say that,
1594 00:47:32,970 --> 00:47:35,970 I call communism the real movement,
1595 00:47:35,970 --> 00:47:37,970 that develops the civil war everywhere,
1596 00:47:37,970 --> 00:47:39,970 and at every occasion.
1597 00:47:39,970 --> 00:47:40,970 Yes, exactly.
1598 00:47:40,970 --> 00:47:42,970 And it sounds very rough.
1599 00:47:42,970 --> 00:47:44,970 Yes, it's this Marx paraphrase,
1600 00:47:44,970 --> 00:47:46,970 that communism is the real movement,
1601 00:47:46,970 --> 00:47:52,970 that undermines the status of things in capitalism,
1602 00:47:52,970 --> 00:47:55,970 and that's what Lazzaretto also takes up,
1603 00:47:55,970 --> 00:47:56,970 that he,
1604 00:47:56,970 --> 00:47:59,970 when he tries to see why the revolution,
1605 00:47:59,970 --> 00:48:01,970 why we have to think about the revolution,
1606 00:48:01,970 --> 00:48:05,970 he lifts it up as the revolution as the real movement.
1607 00:48:05,970 --> 00:48:09,970 So they relate to the same way of thinking,
1608 00:48:09,970 --> 00:48:11,970 only one calls it civil war,
1609 00:48:11,970 --> 00:48:13,970 the other calls it revolution,
1610 00:48:13,970 --> 00:48:19,970 without clearly defining why they choose different terms.
1611 00:48:19,970 --> 00:48:22,970 But Lazzaretto is also at the end of that book,
1612 00:48:22,970 --> 00:48:23,970 Capital Hates Everyone,
1613 00:48:23,970 --> 00:48:24,970 he comes to that with,
1614 00:48:24,970 --> 00:48:26,970 he means that many politicians,
1615 00:48:26,970 --> 00:48:27,970 after 1968,
1616 00:48:27,970 --> 00:48:31,970 have divided up the revolution from the revolutionary becoming,
1617 00:48:31,970 --> 00:48:32,970 and this revolutionary becoming,
1618 00:48:32,970 --> 00:48:33,970 which, among other things,
1619 00:48:33,970 --> 00:48:35,970 can be seen as a consequence of Tikkun,
1620 00:48:35,970 --> 00:48:37,970 it's more like a critique and subjugation,
1621 00:48:37,970 --> 00:48:39,970 another production of subjectivity,
1622 00:48:39,970 --> 00:48:40,970 autonomy,
1623 00:48:40,970 --> 00:48:42,970 different forms of self-determination,
1624 00:48:42,970 --> 00:48:43,970 as we talk about,
1625 00:48:43,970 --> 00:48:44,970 or about that and the I,
1626 00:48:44,970 --> 00:48:46,970 that it was separated from the revolution,
1627 00:48:46,970 --> 00:48:48,970 which Lazzaretto defines more as a radical change
1628 00:48:48,970 --> 00:48:49,970 in the order of self-determination,
1629 00:48:49,970 --> 00:48:50,970 a fight for political power,
1630 00:48:50,970 --> 00:48:53,970 these classic expropriate, expropriators,
1631 00:48:53,970 --> 00:48:55,970 overshadowing capitalism.
1632 00:48:55,970 --> 00:48:57,970 And he means that it contrasts this difference
1633 00:48:57,970 --> 00:48:59,970 between liberation and revolution,
1634 00:48:59,970 --> 00:49:01,970 where the first is a form of flight
1635 00:49:01,970 --> 00:49:03,970 or withdrawal for different communities
1636 00:49:03,970 --> 00:49:04,970 from that subordination,
1637 00:49:04,970 --> 00:49:06,970 that capitalism puts them in,
1638 00:49:06,970 --> 00:49:07,970 and he means,
1639 00:49:07,970 --> 00:49:09,970 he has examples with queer movements
1640 00:49:09,970 --> 00:49:11,970 and with feminist movements
1641 00:49:11,970 --> 00:49:12,970 that have fought for it,
1642 00:49:12,970 --> 00:49:13,970 while the other,
1643 00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:14,970 that is, the revolution,
1644 00:49:14,970 --> 00:49:15,970 involves a form of exit
1645 00:49:15,970 --> 00:49:17,970 or overwriting of capitalism itself.
1646 00:49:17,970 --> 00:49:19,970 And there he takes the example of slavery,
1647 00:49:19,970 --> 00:49:21,970 that there it was very clear
1648 00:49:21,970 --> 00:49:23,970 that a policy based on liberation,
1649 00:49:23,970 --> 00:49:24,970 that is,
1650 00:49:24,970 --> 00:49:26,970 to free oneself from slavery,
1651 00:49:26,970 --> 00:49:27,970 instead went through
1652 00:49:27,970 --> 00:49:29,970 another form of racist segregation.
1653 00:49:29,970 --> 00:49:31,970 He means that instead
1654 00:49:31,970 --> 00:49:33,970 it would have been better
1655 00:49:33,970 --> 00:49:34,970 with a revolution.
1656 00:49:34,970 --> 00:49:35,970 And he does not mean
1657 00:49:35,970 --> 00:49:37,970 that he completely abandons
1658 00:49:37,970 --> 00:49:39,970 this with the revolutionary becoming,
1659 00:49:39,970 --> 00:49:41,970 he means that both these parts are needed,
1660 00:49:41,970 --> 00:49:43,970 and that they both would be weakened
1661 00:49:43,970 --> 00:49:44,970 without the other.
1662 00:49:44,970 --> 00:49:45,970 But at the same time,
1663 00:49:45,970 --> 00:49:46,970 he still has,
1664 00:49:46,970 --> 00:49:47,970 what shall I say,
1665 00:49:47,970 --> 00:49:49,970 a critical undertone
1666 00:49:49,970 --> 00:49:51,970 against these post-68
1667 00:49:51,970 --> 00:49:53,970 theorists and movements,
1668 00:49:53,970 --> 00:49:55,970 because he means that
1669 00:49:55,970 --> 00:49:57,970 there is also a limit
1670 00:49:57,970 --> 00:49:59,970 for what theory can achieve.
1671 00:49:59,970 --> 00:50:00,970 And there he takes the help
1672 00:50:00,970 --> 00:50:03,970 of the German Marxist Hans-Jürgen Kral,
1673 00:50:03,970 --> 00:50:04,970 who says that revolutionary theory
1674 00:50:04,970 --> 00:50:05,970 is not the same thing
1675 00:50:05,970 --> 00:50:07,970 as a theory of revolution.
1676 00:50:07,970 --> 00:50:08,970 That is,
1677 00:50:08,970 --> 00:50:09,970 that a revolutionary theory
1678 00:50:09,970 --> 00:50:11,970 blots out different power relations
1679 00:50:11,970 --> 00:50:12,970 in society,
1680 00:50:12,970 --> 00:50:13,970 while a theory of revolution
1681 00:50:13,970 --> 00:50:17,970 includes specific strategic principles.
1682 00:50:17,970 --> 00:50:18,970 And he means that
1683 00:50:18,970 --> 00:50:19,970 it is a task that falls on
1684 00:50:19,970 --> 00:50:21,970 a revolutionary organization
1685 00:50:21,970 --> 00:50:22,970 and on future revolutionaries.
1686 00:50:22,970 --> 00:50:24,970 So he does not come with
1687 00:50:24,970 --> 00:50:25,970 any kind of recipe
1688 00:50:25,970 --> 00:50:27,970 for how to organize himself,
1689 00:50:27,970 --> 00:50:28,970 or something like that,
1690 00:50:28,970 --> 00:50:29,970 but it is a bit like that
1691 00:50:29,970 --> 00:50:31,970 in the tone that this book ends.
1692 00:50:31,970 --> 00:50:33,970 He goes through,
1693 00:50:33,970 --> 00:50:35,970 he has a very autonomous view
1694 00:50:35,970 --> 00:50:38,970 of Lenin and the Russian Revolution,
1695 00:50:38,970 --> 00:50:40,970 where you do not say that
1696 00:50:40,970 --> 00:50:41,970 it was wrong
1697 00:50:41,970 --> 00:50:42,970 and we should do it
1698 00:50:42,970 --> 00:50:43,970 in a different way,
1699 00:50:43,970 --> 00:50:45,970 but you say it was right then,
1700 00:50:45,970 --> 00:50:48,970 but it cannot be lifted up
1701 00:50:48,970 --> 00:50:49,970 to today.
1702 00:50:49,970 --> 00:50:50,970 We cannot,
1703 00:50:50,970 --> 00:50:52,970 their lessons cannot be
1704 00:50:52,970 --> 00:50:54,970 used today.
1705 00:50:54,970 --> 00:50:56,970 For Lenin,
1706 00:50:56,970 --> 00:50:59,970 several Russian revolutions
1707 00:50:59,970 --> 00:51:01,970 took place in 1905
1708 00:51:01,970 --> 00:51:03,970 and then came to 1917,
1709 00:51:03,970 --> 00:51:06,970 but what Lenin was able
1710 00:51:06,970 --> 00:51:07,970 to come with
1711 00:51:07,970 --> 00:51:10,970 was an organizational form
1712 00:51:10,970 --> 00:51:12,970 that was strictly continuous.
1713 00:51:12,970 --> 00:51:14,970 It was based on the factory,
1714 00:51:14,970 --> 00:51:16,970 on the factory works,
1715 00:51:16,970 --> 00:51:18,970 but also on the hierarchical structure
1716 00:51:18,970 --> 00:51:20,970 that the factory means.
1717 00:51:20,970 --> 00:51:22,970 So that you took the factory
1718 00:51:22,970 --> 00:51:24,970 as an organizational form,
1719 00:51:24,970 --> 00:51:25,970 you took the subject
1720 00:51:25,970 --> 00:51:27,970 that it created
1721 00:51:27,970 --> 00:51:29,970 and used it to create
1722 00:51:29,970 --> 00:51:31,970 a hegemony and control
1723 00:51:31,970 --> 00:51:32,970 over the entire
1724 00:51:32,970 --> 00:51:34,970 broad social revolution
1725 00:51:34,970 --> 00:51:36,970 that took place in Russia
1726 00:51:36,970 --> 00:51:37,970 with the military council,
1727 00:51:37,970 --> 00:51:38,970 the labor council,
1728 00:51:38,970 --> 00:51:40,970 the bond council
1729 00:51:40,970 --> 00:51:42,970 and bond movements,
1730 00:51:42,970 --> 00:51:44,970 and made it possible
1731 00:51:44,970 --> 00:51:46,970 to give it leadership
1732 00:51:46,970 --> 00:51:48,970 and get it to,
1733 00:51:48,970 --> 00:51:50,970 that you took and used
1734 00:51:50,970 --> 00:51:51,970 the structure here
1735 00:51:51,970 --> 00:51:53,970 to grasp power
1736 00:51:53,970 --> 00:51:55,970 and use power.
1737 00:51:55,970 --> 00:51:57,970 And there he says,
1738 00:51:57,970 --> 00:51:59,970 but today we cannot
1739 00:51:59,970 --> 00:52:01,970 copy or use
1740 00:52:01,970 --> 00:52:03,970 that factory organization
1741 00:52:03,970 --> 00:52:05,970 because that is not how
1742 00:52:05,970 --> 00:52:06,970 production looks like
1743 00:52:06,970 --> 00:52:08,970 in that way today.
1744 00:52:08,970 --> 00:52:09,970 We do not have that
1745 00:52:09,970 --> 00:52:10,970 work subject,
1746 00:52:10,970 --> 00:52:11,970 that professional
1747 00:52:11,970 --> 00:52:13,970 professional worker
1748 00:52:13,970 --> 00:52:14,970 who had a great control
1749 00:52:14,970 --> 00:52:15,970 over production.
1750 00:52:15,970 --> 00:52:17,970 Today we have gone to
1751 00:52:17,970 --> 00:52:18,970 a more widespread
1752 00:52:18,970 --> 00:52:19,970 mass worker
1753 00:52:19,970 --> 00:52:20,970 or social worker
1754 00:52:20,970 --> 00:52:22,970 who is very heterogeneous
1755 00:52:22,970 --> 00:52:24,970 and differentiated.
1756 00:52:24,970 --> 00:52:26,970 Just talk to your
1757 00:52:26,970 --> 00:52:28,970 20 closest friends
1758 00:52:28,970 --> 00:52:30,970 and see that you will
1759 00:52:30,970 --> 00:52:31,970 have very different
1760 00:52:31,970 --> 00:52:32,970 work tasks
1761 00:52:32,970 --> 00:52:33,970 and different relations
1762 00:52:33,970 --> 00:52:34,970 to the boss
1763 00:52:34,970 --> 00:52:35,970 and the number of colleagues
1764 00:52:35,970 --> 00:52:36,970 and working hours.
1765 00:52:36,970 --> 00:52:38,970 You will not find
1766 00:52:38,970 --> 00:52:40,970 a common homogeneous structure
1767 00:52:40,970 --> 00:52:42,970 in your experiences,
1768 00:52:42,970 --> 00:52:44,970 but you will see
1769 00:52:44,970 --> 00:52:46,970 that there are similarities.
1770 00:52:46,970 --> 00:52:47,970 We have to go
1771 00:52:47,970 --> 00:52:48,970 and work for a salary
1772 00:52:48,970 --> 00:52:49,970 in order to get a salary.
1773 00:52:49,970 --> 00:52:51,970 We are different.
1774 00:52:51,970 --> 00:52:53,970 But how the work is
1775 00:52:53,970 --> 00:52:54,970 formed,
1776 00:52:54,970 --> 00:52:55,970 what kind of
1777 00:52:55,970 --> 00:52:56,970 production materials
1778 00:52:56,970 --> 00:52:57,970 you have,
1779 00:52:57,970 --> 00:52:58,970 how you control them,
1780 00:52:58,970 --> 00:52:59,970 if you work at home,
1781 00:52:59,970 --> 00:53:00,970 if you work there,
1782 00:53:00,970 --> 00:53:01,970 if you have to go
1783 00:53:01,970 --> 00:53:02,970 to work,
1784 00:53:02,970 --> 00:53:03,970 how freely
1785 00:53:03,970 --> 00:53:04,970 you can
1786 00:53:04,970 --> 00:53:05,970 dispose of time,
1787 00:53:05,970 --> 00:53:06,970 all of that
1788 00:53:06,970 --> 00:53:07,970 will look different.
1789 00:53:07,970 --> 00:53:08,970 So it requires
1790 00:53:08,970 --> 00:53:09,970 another form
1791 00:53:09,970 --> 00:53:10,970 of organization.
1792 00:53:10,970 --> 00:53:11,970 And then he looks
1793 00:53:11,970 --> 00:53:13,970 at post-colonial
1794 00:53:13,970 --> 00:53:14,970 and anti-colonial
1795 00:53:14,970 --> 00:53:15,970 movements.
1796 00:53:15,970 --> 00:53:16,970 He lifts up
1797 00:53:16,970 --> 00:53:17,970 Fanhon,
1798 00:53:17,970 --> 00:53:18,970 he takes up
1799 00:53:18,970 --> 00:53:19,970 feminist
1800 00:53:19,970 --> 00:53:20,970 camps,
1801 00:53:20,970 --> 00:53:21,970 he takes up
1802 00:53:21,970 --> 00:53:23,970 Revolta Femminile
1803 00:53:23,970 --> 00:53:24,970 in Italy
1804 00:53:24,970 --> 00:53:25,970 and sees that none
1805 00:53:25,970 --> 00:53:26,970 of these movements'
1806 00:53:26,970 --> 00:53:27,970 goals were
1807 00:53:27,970 --> 00:53:28,970 any longer
1808 00:53:28,970 --> 00:53:30,970 to take power.
1809 00:53:30,970 --> 00:53:31,970 To take power,
1810 00:53:31,970 --> 00:53:32,970 there was not
1811 00:53:32,970 --> 00:53:33,970 the solution
1812 00:53:33,970 --> 00:53:34,970 for the problem
1813 00:53:34,970 --> 00:53:35,970 they wanted to achieve.
1814 00:53:35,970 --> 00:53:36,970 To put a female
1815 00:53:36,970 --> 00:53:37,970 CEO,
1816 00:53:37,970 --> 00:53:38,970 prime minister
1817 00:53:38,970 --> 00:53:39,970 or judge
1818 00:53:39,970 --> 00:53:40,970 had not solved
1819 00:53:40,970 --> 00:53:41,970 the problem
1820 00:53:41,970 --> 00:53:42,970 of the feminist
1821 00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:43,970 movement.
1822 00:53:43,970 --> 00:53:44,970 And to just
1823 00:53:44,970 --> 00:53:45,970 get a colonial
1824 00:53:45,970 --> 00:53:46,970 representation
1825 00:53:46,970 --> 00:53:47,970 in France
1826 00:53:47,970 --> 00:53:48,970 and England
1827 00:53:48,970 --> 00:53:49,970 is not
1828 00:53:49,970 --> 00:53:50,970 enough.
1829 00:53:50,970 --> 00:53:51,970 The parliament
1830 00:53:51,970 --> 00:53:52,970 had not solved
1831 00:53:52,970 --> 00:53:53,970 the colonial
1832 00:53:53,970 --> 00:53:54,970 movements,
1833 00:53:54,970 --> 00:53:55,970 but they
1834 00:53:55,970 --> 00:53:56,970 needed to
1835 00:53:56,970 --> 00:53:57,970 expel
1836 00:53:57,970 --> 00:53:58,970 power,
1837 00:53:58,970 --> 00:53:59,970 withdraw
1838 00:53:59,970 --> 00:54:00,970 from that
1839 00:54:00,970 --> 00:54:01,970 structure,
1840 00:54:01,970 --> 00:54:02,970 disconnect,
1841 00:54:02,970 --> 00:54:03,970 de-link,
1842 00:54:03,970 --> 00:54:04,970 de-colonialize
1843 00:54:04,970 --> 00:54:05,970 their movements,
1844 00:54:05,970 --> 00:54:06,970 de-patriarchalize
1845 00:54:06,970 --> 00:54:07,970 them
1846 00:54:07,970 --> 00:54:08,970 as part
1847 00:54:08,970 --> 00:54:09,970 of their
1848 00:54:09,970 --> 00:54:10,970 struggle.
1849 00:54:10,970 --> 00:54:11,970 And there
1850 00:54:11,970 --> 00:54:12,970 he sees
1851 00:54:12,970 --> 00:54:13,970 that this
1852 00:54:13,970 --> 00:54:14,970 is more
1853 00:54:14,970 --> 00:54:15,970 to learn
1854 00:54:15,970 --> 00:54:16,970 for the
1855 00:54:16,970 --> 00:54:17,970 labor
1856 00:54:17,970 --> 00:54:18,970 struggle
1857 00:54:18,970 --> 00:54:19,970 than the
1858 00:54:19,970 --> 00:54:20,970 revolution
1859 00:54:20,970 --> 00:54:21,970 today.
1860 00:54:21,970 --> 00:54:22,970 Yes,
1861 00:54:22,970 --> 00:54:23,970 because I think
1862 00:54:23,970 --> 00:54:24,970 that Lazzarato,
1863 00:54:24,970 --> 00:54:25,970 he,
1864 00:54:25,970 --> 00:54:26,970 as we were
1865 00:54:26,970 --> 00:54:27,970 talking about
1866 00:54:27,970 --> 00:54:28,970 at the beginning,
1867 00:54:28,970 --> 00:54:29,970 I think
1868 00:54:29,970 --> 00:54:30,970 that he unites
1869 00:54:30,970 --> 00:54:31,970 the best
1870 00:54:31,970 --> 00:54:32,970 from EGRI,
1871 00:54:32,970 --> 00:54:33,970 as you were
1872 00:54:33,970 --> 00:54:34,970 talking about
1873 00:54:34,970 --> 00:54:35,970 the analysis
1874 00:54:35,970 --> 00:54:36,970 of class
1875 00:54:36,970 --> 00:54:37,970 composition
1876 00:54:37,970 --> 00:54:38,970 and the new
1877 00:54:38,970 --> 00:54:39,970 forms of capitalism,
1878 00:54:39,970 --> 00:54:40,970 how the work
1879 00:54:40,970 --> 00:54:41,970 looks.
1880 00:54:41,970 --> 00:54:42,970 Combining that
1881 00:54:42,970 --> 00:54:43,970 with the best
1882 00:54:43,970 --> 00:54:44,970 of the invisible
1883 00:54:44,970 --> 00:54:45,970 committee
1884 00:54:45,970 --> 00:54:46,970 and the
1885 00:54:46,970 --> 00:54:47,970 restituting
1886 00:54:47,970 --> 00:54:48,970 the world
1887 00:54:48,970 --> 00:54:49,970 of capitalism.
1888 00:54:49,970 --> 00:54:50,970 But at the same time
1889 00:54:50,970 --> 00:54:51,970 he avoids
1890 00:54:51,970 --> 00:54:52,970 the great
1891 00:54:52,970 --> 00:54:53,970 weaknesses.
1892 00:54:53,970 --> 00:54:54,970 In the case of
1893 00:54:54,970 --> 00:54:55,970 EGRI,
1894 00:54:55,970 --> 00:54:56,970 this view
1895 00:54:56,970 --> 00:54:57,970 of the
1896 00:54:57,970 --> 00:54:58,970 multitude
1897 00:54:58,970 --> 00:54:59,970 as an
1898 00:54:59,970 --> 00:55:00,970 immanent,
1899 00:55:00,970 --> 00:55:01,970 productive
1900 00:55:01,970 --> 00:55:02,970 and potential
1901 00:55:02,970 --> 00:55:03,970 autonomous
1902 00:55:03,970 --> 00:55:04,970 where the
1903 00:55:04,970 --> 00:55:05,970 capital is
1904 00:55:05,970 --> 00:55:06,970 reduced to
1905 00:55:06,970 --> 00:55:07,970 some
1906 00:55:07,970 --> 00:55:08,970 kind
1907 00:55:08,970 --> 00:55:09,970 of
1908 00:55:09,970 --> 00:55:10,970 parasite.
1909 00:55:10,970 --> 00:55:11,970 And in the
1910 00:55:11,970 --> 00:55:12,970 invisible
1911 00:55:12,970 --> 00:55:13,970 committee
1912 00:55:13,970 --> 00:55:14,970 and in
1913 00:55:14,970 --> 00:55:15,970 Tarry's
1914 00:55:15,970 --> 00:55:16,970 case,
1915 00:55:16,970 --> 00:55:17,970 his take
1916 00:55:17,970 --> 00:55:18,970 on the
1917 00:55:18,970 --> 00:55:19,970 potential
1918 00:55:19,970 --> 00:55:20,970 is something
1919 00:55:20,970 --> 00:55:21,970 I will come back
1920 00:55:21,970 --> 00:55:22,970 to.
1921 00:55:22,970 --> 00:55:23,970 It is
1922 00:55:23,970 --> 00:55:24,970 revolutionary
1923 00:55:24,970 --> 00:55:25,970 rupture.
1924 00:55:25,970 --> 00:55:26,970 I don't know
1925 00:55:26,970 --> 00:55:27,970 the best
1926 00:55:27,970 --> 00:55:28,970 translation.
1927 00:55:28,970 --> 00:55:29,970 A breakpoint.
1928 00:55:29,970 --> 00:55:30,970 You have
1929 00:55:30,970 --> 00:55:31,970 to do
1930 00:55:31,970 --> 00:55:32,970 a crime
1931 00:55:32,970 --> 00:55:33,970 with capitalism.
1932 00:55:33,970 --> 00:55:34,970 There are
1933 00:55:34,970 --> 00:55:35,970 no tendencies
1934 00:55:35,970 --> 00:55:36,970 that can
1935 00:55:36,970 --> 00:55:37,970 only continue
1936 00:55:37,970 --> 00:55:38,970 and then
1937 00:55:38,970 --> 00:55:39,970 become
1938 00:55:39,970 --> 00:55:40,970 like
1939 00:55:40,970 --> 00:55:41,970 Negri.
1940 00:55:41,970 --> 00:55:42,970 That you
1941 00:55:42,970 --> 00:55:43,970 somehow
1942 00:55:43,970 --> 00:55:44,970 have to
1943 00:55:44,970 --> 00:55:45,970 deal
1944 00:55:45,970 --> 00:55:46,970 with
1945 00:55:46,970 --> 00:55:47,970 negativity.
1946 00:55:47,970 --> 00:55:48,970 He is very
1947 00:55:48,970 --> 00:55:49,970 clear about
1948 00:55:49,970 --> 00:55:50,970 the state
1949 00:55:50,970 --> 00:55:51,970 capital
1950 00:55:51,970 --> 00:55:52,970 machine.
1951 00:55:52,970 --> 00:55:53,970 There is
1952 00:55:53,970 --> 00:55:54,970 no political
1953 00:55:54,970 --> 00:55:55,970 autonomy.
1954 00:55:55,970 --> 00:55:56,970 He denies
1955 00:55:56,970 --> 00:55:57,970 left-wing
1956 00:55:57,970 --> 00:55:58,970 populism.
1957 00:55:58,970 --> 00:55:59,970 He says
1958 00:55:59,970 --> 00:56:00,970 there is
1959 00:56:00,970 --> 00:56:01,970 no room
1960 00:56:01,970 --> 00:56:02,970 for that.
1961 00:56:02,970 --> 00:56:03,970 He calls
1962 00:56:03,970 --> 00:56:04,970 neoliberalism
1963 00:56:04,970 --> 00:56:05,970 an anti-reformism.
1964 00:56:05,970 --> 00:56:06,970 There is
1965 00:56:06,970 --> 00:56:07,970 nothing to
1966 00:56:07,970 --> 00:56:08,970 negotiate
1967 00:56:08,970 --> 00:56:09,970 about
1968 00:56:09,970 --> 00:56:10,970 anymore.
1969 00:56:10,970 --> 00:56:11,970 No.
1970 00:56:11,970 --> 00:56:12,970 No.
1971 00:56:12,970 --> 00:56:13,970 What
1972 00:56:13,970 --> 00:56:14,970 is there
1973 00:56:14,970 --> 00:56:15,970 to negotiate
1974 00:56:15,970 --> 00:56:16,970 that they
1975 00:56:16,970 --> 00:56:17,970 can negotiate
1976 00:56:17,970 --> 00:56:18,970 and take
1977 00:56:18,970 --> 00:56:19,970 them off
1978 00:56:19,970 --> 00:56:20,970 and throw
1979 00:56:20,970 --> 00:56:21,970 away?
1980 00:56:21,970 --> 00:56:22,970 Exactly.
1981 00:56:22,970 --> 00:56:23,970 But it
1982 00:56:23,970 --> 00:56:24,970 also means
1983 00:56:24,970 --> 00:56:25,970 that they
1984 00:56:25,970 --> 00:56:26,970 have nothing
1985 00:56:26,970 --> 00:56:27,970 to offer.
1986 00:56:27,970 --> 00:56:28,970 They cannot
1987 00:56:28,970 --> 00:56:29,970 offer peace,
1988 00:56:29,970 --> 00:56:30,970 pacts.
1989 00:56:30,970 --> 00:56:31,970 Neoliberalism
1990 00:56:31,970 --> 00:56:32,970 could offer
1991 00:56:32,970 --> 00:56:33,970 something.
1992 00:56:33,970 --> 00:56:34,970 They could
1993 00:56:34,970 --> 00:56:35,970 offer
1994 00:56:35,970 --> 00:56:36,970 cheap
1995 00:56:36,970 --> 00:56:37,970 credit.
1996 00:56:37,970 --> 00:56:38,970 You could
1997 00:56:38,970 --> 00:56:39,970 get a loan.
1998 00:56:39,970 --> 00:56:40,970 You could
1999 00:56:40,970 --> 00:56:41,970 reward it.
2000 00:56:41,970 --> 00:56:42,970 And you
2001 00:56:42,970 --> 00:56:43,970 can't
2002 00:56:43,970 --> 00:56:44,970 work
2003 00:56:44,970 --> 00:56:45,970 but you
2004 00:56:45,970 --> 00:56:46,970 can get
2005 00:56:46,970 --> 00:56:47,970 cheap loans
2006 00:56:47,970 --> 00:56:48,970 so you
2007 00:56:48,970 --> 00:56:49,970 will be
2008 00:56:49,970 --> 00:56:50,970 indebted
2009 00:56:50,970 --> 00:56:51,970 for the rest
2010 00:56:51,970 --> 00:56:52,970 of your life
2011 00:56:52,970 --> 00:56:53,970 but you
2012 00:56:53,970 --> 00:56:54,970 get your
2013 00:56:54,970 --> 00:56:55,970 housing
2014 00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:56,970 and maybe
2015 00:56:56,970 --> 00:56:57,970 you can
2016 00:56:57,970 --> 00:56:58,970 sell it
2017 00:56:58,970 --> 00:56:59,970 and your
2018 00:56:59,970 --> 00:57:00,970 children
2019 00:57:00,970 --> 00:57:01,970 will be able
2020 00:57:01,970 --> 00:57:02,970 to buy
2021 00:57:02,970 --> 00:57:03,970 a house.
2022 00:57:03,970 --> 00:57:04,970 That gave
2023 00:57:04,970 --> 00:57:05,970 that promise
2024 00:57:05,970 --> 00:57:06,970 and not
2025 00:57:06,970 --> 00:57:07,970 even that
2026 00:57:07,970 --> 00:57:08,970 promise
2027 00:57:08,970 --> 00:57:09,970 can
2028 00:57:09,970 --> 00:57:10,970 this
2029 00:57:10,970 --> 00:57:11,970 new
2030 00:57:11,970 --> 00:57:12,970 conservative
2031 00:57:12,970 --> 00:57:13,970 what we
2032 00:57:13,970 --> 00:57:14,970 call
2033 00:57:14,970 --> 00:57:15,970 a good
2034 00:57:15,970 --> 00:57:16,970 concept
2035 00:57:16,970 --> 00:57:17,970 for it.
2036 00:57:17,970 --> 00:57:18,970 A
2037 00:57:18,970 --> 00:57:19,970 alliance
2038 00:57:19,970 --> 00:57:20,970 between
2039 00:57:20,970 --> 00:57:21,970 nationalism,
2040 00:57:21,970 --> 00:57:22,970 fascism
2041 00:57:22,970 --> 00:57:23,970 and liberalism
2042 00:57:23,970 --> 00:57:24,970 in that
2043 00:57:24,970 --> 00:57:25,970 way.
2044 00:57:25,970 --> 00:57:26,970 It cannot
2045 00:57:26,970 --> 00:57:27,970 offer anything
2046 00:57:27,970 --> 00:57:28,970 other than
2047 00:57:28,970 --> 00:57:29,970 a garden
2048 00:57:29,970 --> 00:57:30,970 and
2049 00:57:30,970 --> 00:57:31,970 cans.
2050 00:57:31,970 --> 00:57:32,970 No,
2051 00:57:32,970 --> 00:57:33,970 exactly.
2052 00:57:33,970 --> 00:57:34,970 And to
2053 00:57:34,970 --> 00:57:35,970 reconnect
2054 00:57:35,970 --> 00:57:36,970 to
2055 00:57:36,970 --> 00:57:37,970 what we
2056 00:57:37,970 --> 00:57:38,970 talked
2057 00:57:38,970 --> 00:57:39,970 about
2058 00:57:39,970 --> 00:57:40,970 earlier,
2059 00:57:40,970 --> 00:57:41,970 the
2060 00:57:41,970 --> 00:57:42,970 neoliberal
2061 00:57:42,970 --> 00:57:43,970 revolution
2062 00:57:43,970 --> 00:57:44,970 or the
2063 00:57:44,970 --> 00:57:45,970 formation
2064 00:57:45,970 --> 00:57:46,970 of new
2065 00:57:46,970 --> 00:57:47,970 subjectivities.
2066 00:57:47,970 --> 00:57:48,970 Margaret Thatcher
2067 00:57:48,970 --> 00:57:49,970 said that
2068 00:57:49,970 --> 00:57:50,970 economic science
2069 00:57:50,970 --> 00:57:51,970 was the
2070 00:57:51,970 --> 00:57:52,970 method
2071 00:57:52,970 --> 00:57:53,970 but the
2072 00:57:53,970 --> 00:57:54,970 goal was
2073 00:57:54,970 --> 00:57:55,970 to change
2074 00:57:55,970 --> 00:57:56,970 people's
2075 00:57:56,970 --> 00:57:57,970 hearts
2076 00:57:57,970 --> 00:57:58,970 and thoughts,
2077 00:57:58,970 --> 00:57:59,970 a form
2078 00:57:59,970 --> 00:58:00,970 of war
2079 00:58:00,970 --> 00:58:01,970 and subjectivity.
2080 00:58:01,970 --> 00:58:02,970 That is,
2081 00:58:02,970 --> 00:58:03,970 after the
2082 00:58:03,970 --> 00:58:04,970 body
2083 00:58:04,970 --> 00:58:05,970 in some
2084 00:58:05,970 --> 00:58:06,970 way
2085 00:58:06,970 --> 00:58:07,970 has been
2086 00:58:07,970 --> 00:58:08,970 disturbed
2087 00:58:08,970 --> 00:58:09,970 by violence
2088 00:58:09,970 --> 00:58:10,970 for example
2089 00:58:10,970 --> 00:58:11,970 in the
2090 00:58:11,970 --> 00:58:12,970 time of the
2091 00:58:12,970 --> 00:58:13,970 Great Depression
2092 00:58:13,970 --> 00:58:14,970 and we
2093 00:58:14,970 --> 00:58:15,970 speak about
2094 00:58:15,970 --> 00:58:16,970 the
2095 00:58:16,970 --> 00:58:17,970 future
2096 00:58:17,970 --> 00:58:18,970 and how
2097 00:58:18,970 --> 00:58:19,970 the
2098 00:58:19,970 --> 00:58:20,970 world
2099 00:58:20,970 --> 00:58:21,970 will
2100 00:58:21,970 --> 00:58:22,970 change
2101 00:58:22,970 --> 00:58:23,970 and
2102 00:58:23,970 --> 00:58:24,970 what
2103 00:58:24,970 --> 00:58:25,970 will
2104 00:58:25,970 --> 00:58:26,970 be
2105 00:58:26,970 --> 00:58:27,970 the
2106 00:58:27,970 --> 00:58:28,970 future
2107 00:58:28,970 --> 00:58:29,970 of
2108 00:58:29,970 --> 00:58:30,970 society
2109 00:58:30,970 --> 00:58:31,970 and
2110 00:58:31,970 --> 00:58:32,970 the
2111 00:58:32,970 --> 00:58:33,970 future
2112 00:58:33,970 --> 00:58:34,970 of
2113 00:58:34,970 --> 00:58:35,970 society
2114 00:58:35,970 --> 00:58:36,970 and
2115 00:58:36,970 --> 00:58:37,970 of
2116 00:58:37,970 --> 00:58:38,970 society
2117 00:58:38,970 --> 00:58:39,970 and
2118 00:58:39,970 --> 00:58:40,970 of
2119 00:58:40,970 --> 00:58:44,290 It's a weapon in this war, it's subjectivity.
2120 00:58:44,910 --> 00:58:48,190 Yes, and that's where we leave Lazaretto.
2121 00:58:48,230 --> 00:58:52,990 I should also say that the semiotexts of Autonomedia
2122 00:58:52,990 --> 00:58:56,350 release a number of small books of him.
2123 00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:59,830 And he writes in a very high pace now.
2124 00:59:00,770 --> 00:59:03,510 You feel that every book continues a little
2125 00:59:03,510 --> 00:59:05,030 where the previous one ended.
2126 00:59:05,210 --> 00:59:09,230 It's like in Bifo's books, that they tie into each other.
2127 00:59:09,230 --> 00:59:12,970 So it's very exciting that you don't get a book
2128 00:59:12,970 --> 00:59:17,530 with a finished theory, and this will continue to develop in the next one.
2129 00:59:17,850 --> 00:59:20,630 He has another one that came out in English recently
2130 00:59:20,630 --> 00:59:26,450 that takes up more revolutions and ties to racism and feminism
2131 00:59:26,450 --> 00:59:30,350 and colonial movements, where he goes much more in.
2132 00:59:30,930 --> 00:59:34,710 I haven't got it yet, I haven't read it yet, but it's one of those...
2133 00:59:34,710 --> 00:59:36,970 No, because he's very careful when he points out
2134 00:59:36,970 --> 00:59:38,830 that what he means with the global civil war
2135 00:59:38,830 --> 00:59:39,210 or what he's talking about,
2136 00:59:39,210 --> 00:59:42,270 when he talks about civil war, it's not just class war,
2137 00:59:42,390 --> 00:59:45,610 but it's really war to subordinate women
2138 00:59:45,610 --> 00:59:50,330 or, based on racist reasons, to rossify it and so on.
2139 00:59:50,550 --> 00:59:54,390 And it's on all of these fronts that this civil war takes place.
2140 00:59:54,750 --> 00:59:57,770 You could say, for example, when it comes to women,
2141 00:59:58,010 --> 01:00:02,870 that the whole thing that Naomi Wolf once wrote
2142 01:00:02,870 --> 01:00:06,330 about the myth of beauty and the industry of beauty,
2143 01:00:06,790 --> 01:00:08,330 that's a way...
2144 01:00:08,330 --> 01:00:11,190 It's a way to intensify one's appearance,
2145 01:00:11,350 --> 01:00:14,490 but it's done through biopolitics, it's productive,
2146 01:00:14,750 --> 01:00:18,550 you're going to create, you're going to make it attractive,
2147 01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:24,110 well-trained, make sure that you market it yourself.
2148 01:00:24,510 --> 01:00:26,830 It's a subordination as a woman,
2149 01:00:26,990 --> 01:00:29,830 but it doesn't just build on being an object,
2150 01:00:29,950 --> 01:00:32,050 you become a subject, you're activated,
2151 01:00:32,670 --> 01:00:35,270 you're going to be a driving force in yourself.
2152 01:00:35,270 --> 01:00:37,270 And there we have this Foucault,
2153 01:00:38,330 --> 01:00:40,030 and I think that the Hungarian side of the analysis
2154 01:00:40,030 --> 01:00:42,330 is relevant when it comes to that.
2155 01:00:42,770 --> 01:00:45,830 But should we understand these attacks on abortion rights
2156 01:00:45,830 --> 01:00:48,770 that are happening right now in the USA or Poland,
2157 01:00:49,350 --> 01:00:52,150 and the attacks on gender science,
2158 01:00:52,790 --> 01:00:54,270 and the attacks on trans,
2159 01:00:54,450 --> 01:00:58,530 and everything that is about securing reproduction
2160 01:00:58,530 --> 01:01:02,330 and discussing the reduced nativity,
2161 01:01:02,950 --> 01:01:05,330 that too few children are born...
2162 01:01:05,330 --> 01:01:07,010 There's a lot of panic in the right now.
2163 01:01:07,010 --> 01:01:08,010 Yes, and that's...
2164 01:01:08,330 --> 01:01:10,330 It's not a movement that is...
2165 01:01:10,330 --> 01:01:12,330 It's practiced over populations,
2166 01:01:12,330 --> 01:01:14,330 it's practiced over women,
2167 01:01:14,330 --> 01:01:16,330 but it's extremely repressive,
2168 01:01:16,330 --> 01:01:18,330 violent against bodies.
2169 01:01:18,330 --> 01:01:20,330 It forbids with law,
2170 01:01:20,330 --> 01:01:22,330 and attacks with law,
2171 01:01:22,330 --> 01:01:24,330 or attacks with violence,
2172 01:01:24,330 --> 01:01:26,330 how bodies should be,
2173 01:01:26,330 --> 01:01:28,330 and what they should be able to do,
2174 01:01:28,330 --> 01:01:30,330 and so on.
2175 01:01:30,330 --> 01:01:32,330 That's where Lazaratos comes in,
2176 01:01:32,330 --> 01:01:34,330 we can't forget this war, violence,
2177 01:01:34,330 --> 01:01:37,330 the repressive aspect that lies in this.
2178 01:01:37,330 --> 01:01:38,150 We can't just...
2179 01:01:38,150 --> 01:01:40,150 We can't just look at this,
2180 01:01:40,150 --> 01:01:42,150 that everyone is Instagram feminists today.
2181 01:01:42,150 --> 01:01:44,150 No, but really, this patriarchal violence
2182 01:01:44,150 --> 01:01:46,150 is like a red thread.
2183 01:01:46,150 --> 01:01:48,150 And there were very big demonstrations,
2184 01:01:48,150 --> 01:01:50,150 for example in Italy last year,
2185 01:01:50,150 --> 01:01:52,150 after a young woman was beaten by her ex-boyfriend.
2186 01:01:52,150 --> 01:01:54,150 Yes, there have been several.
2187 01:01:54,150 --> 01:01:56,150 It has been a movement that has been going on
2188 01:01:56,150 --> 01:01:58,150 for five years,
2189 01:01:58,150 --> 01:02:00,150 and it comes from Latin America,
2190 01:02:00,150 --> 01:02:02,150 someone came along...
2191 01:02:02,150 --> 01:02:05,150 So that violence is still a main focus,
2192 01:02:05,150 --> 01:02:07,150 so that's absolutely it with the creation,
2193 01:02:07,150 --> 01:02:09,150 the creation of some kind of subjetivity,
2194 01:02:09,150 --> 01:02:11,150 where you're supposed to stay beautiful,
2195 01:02:11,150 --> 01:02:13,150 subordinated, and be pleasant,
2196 01:02:13,150 --> 01:02:16,150 but also the constant risk of patriarchal violence.
2197 01:02:16,150 --> 01:02:20,150 Yes, and that's what lifts Meloni to power there.
2198 01:02:20,150 --> 01:02:23,150 It wasn't the traditional fascist idea
2199 01:02:23,150 --> 01:02:27,150 that built on having control over the workforce,
2200 01:02:27,150 --> 01:02:30,150 that which one should be allowed to work in Lega Nord's factories,
2201 01:02:30,150 --> 01:02:31,150 for example.
2202 01:02:31,150 --> 01:02:33,150 It's not that now that lifts...
2203 01:02:33,150 --> 01:02:35,150 They lifted Bellusconi to power,
2204 01:02:35,150 --> 01:02:37,150 but Meloni has been lifted to power,
2205 01:02:37,150 --> 01:02:41,150 by non-Catholic groups,
2206 01:02:41,150 --> 01:02:44,150 who copy the American Christian right
2207 01:02:44,150 --> 01:02:47,150 around war, around the female body,
2208 01:02:47,150 --> 01:02:51,150 around the war, around nativity, reproduction.
2209 01:02:51,150 --> 01:02:57,150 That's what has lifted her to power, so to speak.
2210 01:02:59,150 --> 01:03:02,150 Yes, we might just be done,
2211 01:03:02,150 --> 01:03:04,150 or do you have your long...
2212 01:03:04,150 --> 01:03:05,150 You had a long conflict...
2213 01:03:05,150 --> 01:03:07,150 Yes, I had to kill a lot of women,
2214 01:03:07,150 --> 01:03:09,150 from the very beginning,
2215 01:03:09,150 --> 01:03:11,150 so I shocked Mathias with...
2216 01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:12,150 It could have been ten episodes,
2217 01:03:12,150 --> 01:03:14,150 but now I've killed a few darlings.
2218 01:03:14,150 --> 01:03:16,150 But one thing that I find very interesting,
2219 01:03:16,150 --> 01:03:18,150 that Lazzarato goes into a lot of detail
2220 01:03:18,150 --> 01:03:19,150 on the subject of subjectivity creation,
2221 01:03:19,150 --> 01:03:21,150 is this thing about debt.
2222 01:03:21,150 --> 01:03:23,150 And that's a thought he's taken up from Gilles Deleuze,
2223 01:03:23,150 --> 01:03:25,150 and Theory of Controlled Society,
2224 01:03:25,150 --> 01:03:27,150 where he means that debt
2225 01:03:27,150 --> 01:03:29,150 is a very effective form of control,
2226 01:03:29,150 --> 01:03:32,150 which becomes a form of invisible imprisonment,
2227 01:03:32,150 --> 01:03:34,150 a form of invisible prison,
2228 01:03:34,150 --> 01:03:35,150 but which becomes more effective,
2229 01:03:35,150 --> 01:03:37,150 because it becomes so abstract.
2230 01:03:37,150 --> 01:03:38,150 It doesn't directly affect the body,
2231 01:03:38,150 --> 01:03:40,150 you're not locked in somewhere,
2232 01:03:40,150 --> 01:03:43,150 but you're stuck in a form of matrix,
2233 01:03:43,150 --> 01:03:44,150 of calculations,
2234 01:03:44,150 --> 01:03:46,150 of individualized risk,
2235 01:03:46,150 --> 01:03:49,150 and it controls your decisions and actions,
2236 01:03:49,150 --> 01:03:51,150 because you have to constantly relate to your debt,
2237 01:03:51,150 --> 01:03:54,150 that you should be able to pay off your debts.
2238 01:03:54,150 --> 01:03:56,150 Because just one such thing as ending up at Kronofogden,
2239 01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:57,150 and you get points and stuff,
2240 01:03:57,150 --> 01:03:59,150 it makes you very limited.
2241 01:03:59,150 --> 01:04:00,150 You can't take a new subscription,
2242 01:04:00,150 --> 01:04:02,150 or if you live in an apartment,
2243 01:04:02,150 --> 01:04:05,150 you might not be able to move to another apartment,
2244 01:04:05,150 --> 01:04:07,150 because you're denied, because you have a lot of debts.
2245 01:04:07,150 --> 01:04:10,150 And that can create a very social control,
2246 01:04:10,150 --> 01:04:13,150 and Lazzaratta also means that there is a moral aspect to this,
2247 01:04:13,150 --> 01:04:16,150 around the ability to be able to pay,
2248 01:04:16,150 --> 01:04:18,150 or not to be able to pay,
2249 01:04:18,150 --> 01:04:21,150 with terms like responsibility and guilt,
2250 01:04:21,150 --> 01:04:23,150 and that there is a clear narrative
2251 01:04:23,150 --> 01:04:25,150 about individual responsibility,
2252 01:04:25,150 --> 01:04:27,150 hard work, individual agency,
2253 01:04:27,150 --> 01:04:30,150 and that becomes a very clear part of this social control.
2254 01:04:30,150 --> 01:04:32,150 And he also means that unlike work,
2255 01:04:32,150 --> 01:04:34,150 where you often have workmates
2256 01:04:34,150 --> 01:04:36,150 and enter a form of social context,
2257 01:04:36,150 --> 01:04:39,150 there is some type of possibility for collective action,
2258 01:04:39,150 --> 01:04:40,150 which becomes a debtor,
2259 01:04:40,150 --> 01:04:42,150 or a debtor in the form of invisible community,
2260 01:04:42,150 --> 01:04:45,150 and a very politicized individualism.
2261 01:04:45,150 --> 01:04:48,150 He also links it to fascism,
2262 01:04:48,150 --> 01:04:50,150 that you become a debtor,
2263 01:04:50,150 --> 01:04:51,150 you become a frustrated debtor,
2264 01:04:51,150 --> 01:04:52,150 there you are isolated,
2265 01:04:52,150 --> 01:04:54,150 and above all politicized,
2266 01:04:54,150 --> 01:04:56,150 because it becomes like an invisible community.
2267 01:04:56,150 --> 01:04:58,150 And then he means that it can also create,
2268 01:04:58,150 --> 01:05:01,150 that you become susceptible to the curse of fascism.
2269 01:05:01,150 --> 01:05:03,150 He writes that the micro-politics of debt
2270 01:05:03,150 --> 01:05:05,150 creates the conditions for the micro-politics of fascism.
2271 01:05:06,150 --> 01:05:08,150 Yes, definitely.
2272 01:05:08,150 --> 01:05:11,150 And that the making of an indebted man,
2273 01:05:11,150 --> 01:05:14,150 the creator of the debtor,
2274 01:05:14,150 --> 01:05:19,150 he came with it after the economic crisis of 2008-2009.
2275 01:05:19,150 --> 01:05:21,150 It is very good.
2276 01:05:21,150 --> 01:05:24,150 And if you draw it to the war today
2277 01:05:24,150 --> 01:05:26,150 as another dimension,
2278 01:05:26,150 --> 01:05:30,150 then we see it in the closing of bank accounts,
2279 01:05:30,150 --> 01:05:32,150 which ones can have,
2280 01:05:32,150 --> 01:05:34,150 that you close down associations,
2281 01:05:34,150 --> 01:05:36,150 you hunt criminals,
2282 01:05:36,150 --> 01:05:39,150 you go to study associations,
2283 01:05:39,150 --> 01:05:42,150 in how you use...
2284 01:05:42,150 --> 01:05:46,150 The core of it all the time is this,
2285 01:05:46,150 --> 01:05:50,150 about the dissatisfied tax payer
2286 01:05:50,150 --> 01:05:54,150 as a subject who is going to drain the trash,
2287 01:05:54,150 --> 01:05:58,150 and as the former head of Sweden's business,
2288 01:05:58,150 --> 01:06:00,150 he says, what do I get for the money?
2289 01:06:00,150 --> 01:06:02,150 That is their argument,
2290 01:06:02,150 --> 01:06:05,150 that we do not think that we should put
2291 01:06:05,150 --> 01:06:07,150 common money on this.
2292 01:06:07,150 --> 01:06:11,150 And then it is what will motivate everything.
2293 01:06:11,150 --> 01:06:14,150 The debt should be withdrawn,
2294 01:06:14,150 --> 01:06:16,150 and that means that you create
2295 01:06:16,150 --> 01:06:19,150 an enormous control apparatus
2296 01:06:19,150 --> 01:06:21,150 that you have to live up to
2297 01:06:21,150 --> 01:06:23,150 to be justified with this money,
2298 01:06:23,150 --> 01:06:24,150 and if that is not the case,
2299 01:06:24,150 --> 01:06:26,150 then the money should be withdrawn.
2300 01:06:26,150 --> 01:06:28,150 Or the accounts are closed,
2301 01:06:28,150 --> 01:06:30,150 or the premises are closed,
2302 01:06:30,150 --> 01:06:33,150 or the university faculty is closed down,
2303 01:06:33,150 --> 01:06:34,150 so that it is...
2304 01:06:34,150 --> 01:06:37,150 You are really using
2305 01:06:37,150 --> 01:06:40,150 the economic resources
2306 01:06:40,150 --> 01:06:42,150 in the public institutions,
2307 01:06:42,150 --> 01:06:44,150 the bank accounts,
2308 01:06:44,150 --> 01:06:46,150 everything you need to survive now,
2309 01:06:46,150 --> 01:06:49,150 to repress, punish,
2310 01:06:49,150 --> 01:06:52,150 and discipline subjectivities.
2311 01:06:52,150 --> 01:06:53,150 Yes, exactly.
2312 01:06:53,150 --> 01:06:55,150 It becomes like this civil war,
2313 01:06:55,150 --> 01:06:56,150 although with other means,
2314 01:06:56,150 --> 01:06:59,150 although the economic warfare is used instead.
2315 01:06:59,150 --> 01:07:01,150 And here it is interesting to look at Sweden,
2316 01:07:01,150 --> 01:07:04,150 that here the debt has,
2317 01:07:04,150 --> 01:07:05,150 for example, increased,
2318 01:07:05,150 --> 01:07:06,150 compared to last year,
2319 01:07:06,150 --> 01:07:08,150 it has increased by 17%,
2320 01:07:08,150 --> 01:07:09,150 and it is just ticking on,
2321 01:07:09,150 --> 01:07:10,150 and it becomes debt.
2322 01:07:10,150 --> 01:07:11,150 So it becomes like you said,
2323 01:07:11,150 --> 01:07:12,150 when everything is withdrawn,
2324 01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:14,150 so for many large groups,
2325 01:07:14,150 --> 01:07:15,150 in order to somehow be able
2326 01:07:15,150 --> 01:07:16,150 to keep up with the development,
2327 01:07:16,150 --> 01:07:17,150 the only thing you can do
2328 01:07:17,150 --> 01:07:19,150 is increase your debt.
2329 01:07:19,150 --> 01:07:20,150 And that is where all this
2330 01:07:20,150 --> 01:07:23,150 widespread consumer credit market comes in,
2331 01:07:23,150 --> 01:07:25,150 where extremely many people get stuck
2332 01:07:25,150 --> 01:07:27,150 in what is called over-debt,
2333 01:07:27,150 --> 01:07:29,150 that you get a chronic debt,
2334 01:07:29,150 --> 01:07:30,150 you cannot pay your debts,
2335 01:07:30,150 --> 01:07:33,150 and there are very long-term consequences of that.
2336 01:07:33,150 --> 01:07:35,150 And there are very many young people
2337 01:07:35,150 --> 01:07:36,150 who get stuck in that
2338 01:07:36,150 --> 01:07:37,150 through, like,
2339 01:07:37,150 --> 01:07:38,150 consumer loans
2340 01:07:38,150 --> 01:07:40,150 and e-commerce on overpayment and so on.
2341 01:07:40,150 --> 01:07:42,150 So before they even get into adult life,
2342 01:07:42,150 --> 01:07:44,150 they are stuck in this debt trap,
2343 01:07:44,150 --> 01:07:45,150 this invisible prison
2344 01:07:45,150 --> 01:07:47,150 that Salato is talking about.
2345 01:07:47,150 --> 01:07:49,150 Yes, I have to thank Björn.
2346 01:07:49,150 --> 01:07:53,150 We have another chapter here on the way.
2347 01:07:53,150 --> 01:07:55,150 Yes, super fun to be with.
2348 01:07:55,150 --> 01:07:57,150 Yes, we will be back in a year
2349 01:07:57,150 --> 01:07:59,150 and move on in this relationship.
2350 01:07:59,150 --> 01:08:01,150 Yes, to see what a rabbit hole it will be then.
2351 01:08:01,150 --> 01:08:02,150 Yes.
2352 01:08:02,150 --> 01:08:04,150 I also have to say that you write
2353 01:08:04,150 --> 01:08:05,150 in All for Everyone's magazine,
2354 01:08:05,150 --> 01:08:06,150 Swarm,
2355 01:08:06,150 --> 01:08:08,150 so if you do not want to look for fire
2356 01:08:08,150 --> 01:08:09,150 and find your texts,
2357 01:08:09,150 --> 01:08:10,150 then there is also on Swarm
2358 01:08:10,150 --> 01:08:13,150 where you explore more than
2359 01:08:13,150 --> 01:08:15,150 political practice also about this.
2360 01:08:15,150 --> 01:08:16,149 Yes, exactly.
2361 01:08:16,149 --> 01:08:17,149 And I will also,
2362 01:08:17,149 --> 01:08:18,149 I can do a little advertising,
2363 01:08:18,149 --> 01:08:19,149 I will also be in the
2364 01:08:19,149 --> 01:08:21,149 Radical Book Fair in Gothenburg
2365 01:08:21,149 --> 01:08:22,149 and talk about these things
2366 01:08:22,149 --> 01:08:24,149 and maybe go into a little deeper
2367 01:08:24,149 --> 01:08:26,149 certain aspects and so on.
2368 01:08:26,149 --> 01:08:28,149 So you can keep an eye on that.
2369 01:08:28,149 --> 01:08:29,149 Super.
2370 01:08:29,149 --> 01:08:30,149 Thank you very much.
2371 01:08:30,149 --> 01:08:31,149 Thank you.
2372 01:08:40,080 --> 01:08:41,080 Bye bye.
2373 01:08:41,080 --> 01:08:42,080 Bye bye.
2374 01:08:42,080 --> 01:08:43,080 Thank you so much.
2375 01:08:43,080 --> 01:08:44,080 Thank you.
2376 01:08:44,080 --> 01:08:45,080 Thank you.
2377 01:08:46,080 --> 01:08:47,080 There's one wonderful thing
2378 01:08:47,080 --> 01:08:48,080 about livingspl Dipambic
2379 01:08:48,080 --> 01:08:49,080 is that one thing survive,
2380 01:08:49,080 --> 01:08:50,080 you will never manage to escape alone.
2381 01:08:50,080 --> 01:08:51,080 You will therefore,
2382 01:08:51,080 --> 01:08:52,080 have to start by building
2383 01:08:52,080 --> 01:08:53,080 the necessary solidarity.
2384 01:08:53,080 --> 01:08:54,080 To make the game a little harder,
2385 01:08:54,080 --> 01:08:55,080 we have liquidated
2386 01:08:55,080 --> 01:08:56,080 all forms of autonomous sociality.
2387 01:08:56,080 --> 01:08:57,080 We have let only one things survive,
2388 01:08:57,080 --> 01:08:58,080 work.
2389 01:08:58,080 --> 01:08:59,080 That is controlled sociality.
2390 01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:01,080 This will be what you will have to escape from
2391 01:09:01,080 --> 01:09:02,080 though that friendships,
2392 01:09:02,080 --> 01:09:03,080 sabotage
2393 01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:04,080 and self-organization.
2394 01:09:04,080 --> 01:09:05,080 By the way,
2395 01:09:05,080 --> 01:09:06,080 we have made all those forms
2396 01:09:06,080 --> 01:09:07,080 of escaping
2397 01:09:07,080 --> 01:09:08,080 undo crimes.
2398 01:09:08,080 --> 01:09:09,080 Rule Number 6
2399 01:09:09,080 --> 01:09:10,080 Make a Charm
2400 01:09:10,080 --> 01:09:17,180 we'll say it again and again criminals are our enemies but from that you should understand this
2401 01:09:17,180 --> 01:09:23,540 all our enemies are criminals as potential escapees each of you is a potential criminal
2402 01:09:23,540 --> 01:09:27,200 that's why it's a good thing we keep our lists of the numbers you call on your phones
2403 01:09:27,200 --> 01:09:31,920 and that's why your cell phone allows us to locate you at any time and that your credit
2404 01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:38,300 card lets us get to know your habits so easily rule number seven in this little game of ours
2405 01:09:38,300 --> 01:09:42,920 anyone who escapes their isolation will be called the criminals as for those who have the gall to
2406 01:09:42,920 --> 01:09:49,260 protest this status we will call them terrorists the latter may be shot to death at any time
2407 01:09:49,260 --> 01:09:55,240 rule number eight we're quite aware that life among our society contains about as much joy
2408 01:09:55,240 --> 01:10:00,880 as a suburban train ride that capitalism has up to now produced in matters of wealth nothing but
2409 01:10:00,880 --> 01:10:06,100 universal desolation that there are no arguments left to defend our worm-eaten order besides
2410 01:10:06,100 --> 01:10:08,120 police flash grenades but
2411 01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:08,280 you
2412 01:10:08,300 --> 01:10:13,320 what do you expect that's the way it goes we've disarmed you mentally physically and we have the
2413 01:10:13,320 --> 01:10:19,960 monopoly over what we can prohibit to you violence collusion and emergency and after all frankly
2414 01:10:19,960 --> 01:10:27,660 speaking would you do otherwise if you were us rule number nine you will know the prison
2415 01:10:27,660 --> 01:10:34,880 rule number 10 there are no more rules all assaults are permitted signed your government
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Skapad: 15 april 2026