Bjørn Lomborg, chef för Copenhagen Consensus Center, har länge studerat vilken nytta pengar som går till exempelvis bistånd och klimatåtgärder gör. En del är pengar i sjön, medan andra åtgärder är mycket effektiva. Andreas Ericson intervjuar honom om biståndet, klimatpolitiken och åsiktskorridoren.
1 00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:07,780 Det är torsdagen den 22 januari. Jag heter Andreas Eriksson och du lyssnar på Leda-redaktionen, en podd från Svenska Dagbladet.
2 00:00:17,720 --> 00:00:22,280 Varmt välkomna ska ni vara till oss igen. Idag ska vi ta oss an minst sagt stora frågor.
3 00:00:22,840 --> 00:00:32,940 Hur ska vi egentligen prioritera världens resurser för att lösa de mest omfattande problemen vi har när det gäller exempelvis svält, undernäring, sjukdomar, brist på utbildning och så vidare?
4 00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,140 För att inte tala om de miljöproblem som exempelvis den globala uppvärmningen skapar.
5 00:00:37,140 --> 00:00:43,340 Vilka åtgärder är det som är effektiva? Vilka är det som ger mest givet vilka resurser man satsar?
6 00:00:43,920 --> 00:00:48,280 Och tvärtom, vilka är det som inte gör någon nytta alls trots att de kanske är väldigt dyra?
7 00:00:49,560 --> 00:00:55,740 Det ska vi prata om idag och det ska vi göra med hjälp av en person som ni som har följt med Svenska Dagbladets ledare-redaktion känner väl till.
8 00:00:56,340 --> 00:01:02,920 Han har varit en återkommande gästskribent i många år och heter Björn Lomborg och kommer från Copenhagen Consensus Center.
9 00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,160 Welcome to ledare-redaktionen Björn.
10 00:01:05,160 --> 00:01:05,900 Många tack.
11 00:01:05,900 --> 00:01:08,600 Nice to have you on the podcast.
12 00:01:09,160 --> 00:01:12,980 First of all, I'd like to quote one of your famous countrymen, H.C. Andersson.
13 00:01:13,580 --> 00:01:17,860 In the preface to a Swedish translation of one of his books, he wrote, and I quote,
14 00:01:18,320 --> 00:01:24,300 Jag håller eke av att danske bör översättas på svensk, icke heller att svenska förs över i vårt språk.
15 00:01:24,740 --> 00:01:34,100 Vi naboer, kone och skole läser hinande i originelle, men det visar sig att detta ännu inte pågår, så översättelser är nödvändiga för många.
16 00:01:34,100 --> 00:01:35,100 And this is...
17 00:01:35,900 --> 00:01:37,300 Unfortunately, it's still the case.
18 00:01:37,420 --> 00:01:39,260 So we're going to have this conversation in English.
19 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:40,320 That's fine with you?
20 00:01:40,560 --> 00:01:41,560 It's fine with me.
21 00:01:41,720 --> 00:01:43,300 And congrats on your day, me.
22 00:01:44,040 --> 00:01:44,780 Thank you.
23 00:01:45,720 --> 00:01:47,140 Thank you, H.C. Andersson.
24 00:01:48,020 --> 00:01:51,260 I'd like to start with your latest piece in Svenska Dagbladets.
25 00:01:51,460 --> 00:01:55,960 You wrote it in December about the UN Sustainability Development Goals.
26 00:01:56,800 --> 00:02:00,040 Their deadline is pretty close now, 2013.
27 00:02:00,760 --> 00:02:02,960 How are we doing with these goals?
28 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:03,900 Not very well.
29 00:02:04,360 --> 00:02:04,620 Okay.
30 00:02:04,780 --> 00:02:05,880 And in some way...
31 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:08,820 It really tells a very important story.
32 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:13,420 So back in 2015, we did these goals.
33 00:02:13,660 --> 00:02:16,640 So Sweden signed up, Denmark signed up, every country in the world.
34 00:02:16,800 --> 00:02:25,180 I don't think North Korea did, but virtually every country in the world signed up to do everything for everyone, everywhere, all the time.
35 00:02:25,640 --> 00:02:27,980 And anything you can possibly imagine.
36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,920 So we promised to get rid of poverty, get rid of hunger, get rid of disease, pretty much.
37 00:02:33,820 --> 00:02:35,860 And get rid of air pollution.
38 00:02:35,860 --> 00:02:39,620 And climate change, and war, and all other good things in the world.
39 00:02:40,360 --> 00:02:46,880 And it's very well-intentioned, but we can't actually deliver on all these things.
40 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:52,160 When you promise everything, you'll eventually end up making a lot of people feel really let down.
41 00:02:52,700 --> 00:02:56,320 So what we did was we promised way too much.
42 00:02:56,420 --> 00:03:04,020 And we didn't give a thought about what can we do at realistic costs, and what can we do first.
43 00:03:04,020 --> 00:03:05,020 If we can't do everything...
44 00:03:05,860 --> 00:03:09,320 We should have a conversation about where should we start, what should we do first.
45 00:03:09,740 --> 00:03:10,180 Okay.
46 00:03:11,140 --> 00:03:12,420 Just a piece of background.
47 00:03:12,680 --> 00:03:16,380 There were earlier UN goals, the Millennium Goals, and we did quite well, didn't we?
48 00:03:16,640 --> 00:03:17,040 We did.
49 00:03:17,120 --> 00:03:18,160 We did a lot better.
50 00:03:18,920 --> 00:03:20,960 And it's a cautionary tale.
51 00:03:21,140 --> 00:03:25,380 So in 2000, the UN did the Millennium Development Goals.
52 00:03:26,140 --> 00:03:29,480 And in reality, it was just really seven goals.
53 00:03:29,680 --> 00:03:31,260 And they were all very simple.
54 00:03:31,580 --> 00:03:32,920 Get people out of poverty.
55 00:03:32,920 --> 00:03:34,880 So it was more than half.
56 00:03:34,880 --> 00:03:37,500 The global population of poverty.
57 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:41,240 Get moms and kids to not die.
58 00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:42,980 Get people out of starvation.
59 00:03:43,520 --> 00:03:47,060 Get more trees or less deforestation.
60 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:48,420 And a few others.
61 00:03:48,780 --> 00:03:50,700 Oh, get all kids into schools.
62 00:03:51,100 --> 00:03:53,020 So these were very simple things.
63 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:58,260 And surprisingly and quite encouragingly, we managed to do a lot of them.
64 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:01,800 We didn't manage to do all of them, but we really got a far way.
65 00:04:01,800 --> 00:04:04,800 And the reason is we picked a few goals.
66 00:04:04,880 --> 00:04:13,120 And we picked really smart goals, meaning goals that are fairly cheap to do and that are obvious that we need to do first.
67 00:04:13,420 --> 00:04:19,860 So instead of promising everything to everyone, we promised a few very specific things and we actually managed to do a lot of it.
68 00:04:20,079 --> 00:04:22,240 That's what we should have done in 2015.
69 00:04:22,460 --> 00:04:25,740 And of course, that's why we're failing badly here in 2026.
70 00:04:25,980 --> 00:04:28,000 So simply put, we overreached.
71 00:04:28,280 --> 00:04:29,180 Yes, yes.
72 00:04:29,180 --> 00:04:33,740 And, you know, it's not surprising if you ask everyone, what do you want to do?
73 00:04:34,000 --> 00:04:34,760 And there's no.
74 00:04:34,880 --> 00:04:38,900 You obviously want to say, well, we should do all good things.
75 00:04:38,900 --> 00:04:40,660 And that was essentially what happened.
76 00:04:40,940 --> 00:04:47,600 So this was set by about 80 UN ambassadors in New York over a period of about a year.
77 00:04:48,180 --> 00:04:52,680 And I went to meet with a lot of them, about a third of them individually in New York.
78 00:04:52,980 --> 00:04:57,240 And I tried to tell them, please, please, please don't promise everything to everyone.
79 00:04:57,560 --> 00:05:01,360 But of course, their goal was just to put in as many nice words in the document.
80 00:05:01,480 --> 00:05:03,760 It's a really long and very boring document.
81 00:05:03,760 --> 00:05:08,100 But the reality is when you promise everything to everyone, you will fail.
82 00:05:08,580 --> 00:05:15,580 And right now we are on the schedule, on the timetable with about 20 percent of them, I think.
83 00:05:15,780 --> 00:05:16,060 Yes.
84 00:05:16,180 --> 00:05:21,100 And there are some who is stagnant and some are moving backwards, actually.
85 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:21,460 Yes.
86 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:21,700 Yes.
87 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:26,680 So there is one measure of how well we're doing.
88 00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:30,020 And it's very, very hard to do because it's so many different targets.
89 00:05:30,020 --> 00:05:33,020 But it seems to indicate that right now we're going to be 50%.
90 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:34,460 We're going to be 50 years late.
91 00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:38,660 We're going to be done in 2089 instead of 2030.
92 00:05:39,120 --> 00:05:40,720 So, yeah, we're a little behind.
93 00:05:41,740 --> 00:05:45,980 And one of your main argument is that we need to get our priorities right.
94 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:53,240 We have to, given the limited resources, where can every penny do the most good?
95 00:05:54,140 --> 00:05:58,620 And what is the answer to that when it comes to a cost-benefit analysis?
96 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,760 So I actually just gave you a book that gives you that answer.
97 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:03,540 That answer.
98 00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:04,320 I have it in my hand.
99 00:06:04,440 --> 00:06:04,640 Yes.
100 00:06:04,780 --> 00:06:10,940 So we worked together with more than 100 economists, world's top economists and several Nobel laureates,
101 00:06:11,060 --> 00:06:17,120 to try to figure out, of all the things we promised, which ones can you spend a kronor,
102 00:06:17,400 --> 00:06:23,380 or more realistically, a couple hundred million kronor, and do the most good for every kronor spent?
103 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:25,360 And this should be an obvious thing, right?
104 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:28,820 I mean, we do this all the time in our private lives.
105 00:06:28,820 --> 00:06:33,600 I don't know your life, but I'm assuming that your kids want a new bike.
106 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:35,440 And you also want to go on a vacation.
107 00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:36,760 And maybe the roof is leaking.
108 00:06:36,920 --> 00:06:38,120 And there's all kinds of things.
109 00:06:38,440 --> 00:06:42,400 And you always have to make hard choices with your limited resources.
110 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,320 Again, I'm assuming you're not a billionaire.
111 00:06:45,260 --> 00:06:46,760 No, I'm not.
112 00:06:47,540 --> 00:06:50,980 So we have to make tough choices.
113 00:06:51,300 --> 00:06:53,140 And so we look at how much is the benefit?
114 00:06:53,300 --> 00:06:54,460 How much is this going to cost?
115 00:06:54,460 --> 00:07:00,240 And we make sort of a fairly simple equation of where can I get the most bang for my kronor?
116 00:07:00,440 --> 00:07:03,740 And this is also what we teach our kids.
117 00:07:03,760 --> 00:07:06,640 If you want a new bike, you want new Pokemon cards, whatever.
118 00:07:06,960 --> 00:07:09,500 Well, do an analysis.
119 00:07:09,620 --> 00:07:10,420 Cost benefit analysis.
120 00:07:12,900 --> 00:07:15,740 Landebo hjälper dig att ta kontroll över din framtid.
121 00:07:16,560 --> 00:07:20,380 Låt dina pengar växa i din takt på ett sätt som gör morgondagen ljusare.
122 00:07:21,220 --> 00:07:24,920 Landebos erfarna kapital- och relationsförvaltare står redo att guida dig.
123 00:07:25,220 --> 00:07:27,640 Men kom ihåg att investeringar innebär en risk.
124 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:31,540 Upptäck hela vårt fondutbud på landebo.se.
125 00:07:34,090 --> 00:07:36,890 Detta meddelande riktar sig till dig som är över 25 år
126 00:07:36,890 --> 00:07:38,430 och redan använder nikotinprodukter.
127 00:07:38,590 --> 00:07:41,530 Vitt snus innehåller nikotin som är ett mycket beroendeframkallande ämne.
128 00:07:41,690 --> 00:07:45,170 Snusbolaget.se är Sveriges största e-handel för vitt snus.
129 00:07:45,610 --> 00:07:49,730 På snusbolaget.se hittar du enkelt ditt snus bland över 600 smaker
130 00:07:49,730 --> 00:07:52,950 och många kunder kan få doserna levererade redan nästa dag.
131 00:07:53,190 --> 00:07:56,450 Beställ smartare på snusbolaget.se.
132 00:07:58,750 --> 00:08:00,970 Du, jag skriver en pie.
133 00:08:02,250 --> 00:08:03,750 Men gud, så gott.
134 00:08:03,950 --> 00:08:06,710 Tänker du också på en krämegonst skinkpie
135 00:08:06,710 --> 00:08:08,410 eller någon annan av Felix goda löten?
136 00:08:08,430 --> 00:08:11,250 Felix, alltid lite godare.
137 00:08:41,400 --> 00:08:44,320 Så vi tittar både på finansiella fördelar
138 00:08:44,320 --> 00:08:47,760 men vi tittar också på miljö- och sociala fördelar.
139 00:08:47,900 --> 00:08:48,960 Folk som inte dör, till exempel.
140 00:08:49,620 --> 00:08:52,780 Men de här är de bästa sakerna vi kan göra
141 00:08:52,780 --> 00:08:55,580 och vi identifierade 12 av dessa saker.
142 00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:59,440 Så låt mig ge dig några exempel från boken
143 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:00,680 och från analysen.
144 00:09:01,220 --> 00:09:03,620 Det berättar dig, till exempel, att vi kan göra
145 00:09:03,620 --> 00:09:07,380 en enorm mängd bra för matern och nybörjande hälsa.
146 00:09:07,380 --> 00:09:10,880 Så en av de sakerna vi inte tänker på här i den rika världen är,
147 00:09:11,400 --> 00:09:14,720 att den mest farliga dagarna i en kvinnors liv
148 00:09:14,720 --> 00:09:17,720 i de flesta av världen, är den dag hon föds.
149 00:09:17,720 --> 00:09:19,720 Det är helt galet.
150 00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:22,920 Det var så här här, men det är inte längre så.
151 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:24,720 För vi vet hur vi ska förhandla det här.
152 00:09:24,720 --> 00:09:25,920 Hur ska vi förhandla det?
153 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:28,920 Vi har faktiskt en väldigt billig sätt att förhandla de flesta av det.
154 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:31,720 Du måste få kvinnan in i en utbildning.
155 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,720 För de flesta födelser går bra.
156 00:09:34,720 --> 00:09:38,400 Men om de går fel, så går de ofta dramatiskt fel.
157 00:09:38,400 --> 00:09:41,400 Så du måste vara i en institution så att du kan förhandla detta.
158 00:09:41,400 --> 00:09:45,000 Och om du är där, så måste du också ha väldigt enkelt saker som
159 00:09:45,000 --> 00:09:47,400 fri vatten, antiseptiker.
160 00:09:47,400 --> 00:09:50,400 Du måste ha en resuscitator om barnen inte kan forna.
161 00:09:50,400 --> 00:09:52,400 Det händer faktiskt att även här i Europa,
162 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:55,400 ungefär 5 % av alla barn inte fornar.
163 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,400 De behöver positiv luftpressur, en liten ballong,
164 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:00,400 i deras lungor.
165 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:02,400 Det är ett väldigt enkelt procedur, men om du inte har det,
166 00:10:02,400 --> 00:10:04,400 så kommer barnen att dö.
167 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:07,400 Det vi hittar är, och det är en väldigt enkelt sak,
168 00:10:07,400 --> 00:10:09,400 en väldigt billig sak att göra också,
169 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,400 som World Health Organization förväntar sig att alla borde göra.
170 00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:15,400 Om vi kunde gå från ungefär två tredjedelar av alla kvinnor
171 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,400 som går in i institutioner till 90 %
172 00:10:17,400 --> 00:10:20,400 och de här institutionerna var lite bättre utrustade.
173 00:10:20,400 --> 00:10:23,400 Vi pratar inte om fantastiska sjukhus,
174 00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:25,400 vi pratar bara om lite bättre.
175 00:10:25,400 --> 00:10:28,400 Vi förväntar oss för ungefär 3 biljoner dollar per år.
176 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:30,400 Så inte något, inte något du eller jag har,
177 00:10:30,400 --> 00:10:34,400 men en väldigt liten mängd pengar i internationellt område.
178 00:10:34,400 --> 00:10:36,400 För 3 biljoner dollar per år,
179 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,400 så skulle vi kunna skapa 166 000 mamma som dör varje år.
180 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,400 Det är mer än hälften av alla mamma som dör varje år.
181 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:47,400 Och vi skulle kunna skapa 1,2 miljoner barn.
182 00:10:47,400 --> 00:10:49,400 Det här är bara en av de bästa sakerna vi kan göra.
183 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:51,400 Vi förväntar oss för varje krona som är betalt.
184 00:10:51,400 --> 00:10:54,400 Du kan göra 87 kronor tillgängligt.
185 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,400 Och det här är bara en av de 12 sakerna.
186 00:10:57,400 --> 00:10:59,400 Vi tittar på utbildning, till exempel,
187 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,400 där du kan göra väldigt enkelt och effektivt saker
188 00:11:02,400 --> 00:11:04,400 som för ganska lite pengar,
189 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:07,400 tillgängligt för mycket bättre utbildade barn.
190 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:09,400 Vi kan kanske tala om det.
191 00:11:09,400 --> 00:11:11,400 Vi kan tala om tuberkulosis, malaria,
192 00:11:11,400 --> 00:11:14,400 tydliga sjukdomar för att ta hand om vaccineringar.
193 00:11:14,400 --> 00:11:17,400 Men det är också något om att göra så att människor
194 00:11:17,400 --> 00:11:19,400 har fler möjligheter i dåliga världar,
195 00:11:19,400 --> 00:11:21,400 som landtänjereform.
196 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:23,400 Så för de flesta människor,
197 00:11:23,400 --> 00:11:25,400 de arbetar i akrokulturen.
198 00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,400 Och många vet inte om de faktiskt äger landet,
199 00:11:27,400 --> 00:11:30,400 för det finns inget bra landregistering.
200 00:11:30,400 --> 00:11:32,400 Ungefär en biljon människor på planeten
201 00:11:32,400 --> 00:11:34,400 tror att de i de nästa 5 åren
202 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,400 kommer att bli utbyggda av landet.
203 00:11:36,400 --> 00:11:37,400 Om du tänker så,
204 00:11:37,400 --> 00:11:39,400 så kommer du inte att diga en vägg,
205 00:11:39,400 --> 00:11:40,400 eller göra irrigation,
206 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:41,400 eller planera orkester,
207 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,400 så att trädet bara kommer att blomna
208 00:11:43,400 --> 00:11:45,400 och ge frukt i 5-10 år.
209 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:47,400 Du kommer bara att göra vad du kan
210 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:48,400 för nästa år.
211 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:51,400 I svenska kallar vi det
212 00:11:51,400 --> 00:11:53,400 lågt hängande frukt.
213 00:11:53,400 --> 00:11:55,400 Ja, lågt hängande frukt.
214 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,400 Varför är det inte redan gjort?
215 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Den korta svaren är att
216 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:02,400 lite av det är redan gjort,
217 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,400 men det är för att vi är tillbaka
218 00:12:04,400 --> 00:12:05,400 till det här.
219 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:06,400 Vi vill göra allt.
220 00:12:06,400 --> 00:12:08,400 Så när du pratar med många politiker
221 00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:09,400 de gillar att säga
222 00:12:09,400 --> 00:12:11,400 jag vill göra alla goda saker,
223 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:13,400 för det låter som om de gör mer.
224 00:12:13,400 --> 00:12:14,400 Så de säger
225 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:16,400 jag vill göra något
226 00:12:16,400 --> 00:12:18,400 som hjälper kvinnor.
227 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:19,400 Men jag vill också hjälpa
228 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:21,400 att råda kvinnor.
229 00:12:21,400 --> 00:12:22,400 Jag vill också hjälpa dem
230 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:24,400 med barn.
231 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:25,400 Och kanske vi vill se till
232 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:27,400 att de är indigna människor.
233 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:28,400 Och kanske vi vill se till
234 00:12:28,400 --> 00:12:29,400 att de är illiterata.
235 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:31,400 Du lägger upp alla dessa klockor
236 00:12:31,400 --> 00:12:32,400 och du tar alla dessa olika saker
237 00:12:32,400 --> 00:12:33,400 och så blir du
238 00:12:33,400 --> 00:12:35,400 något som låter bra
239 00:12:35,400 --> 00:12:36,400 och som ser bra
240 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:37,400 i pressreportaget
241 00:12:37,400 --> 00:12:38,400 men som inte är så effektivt.
242 00:12:38,400 --> 00:12:40,400 När du säger till exempel
243 00:12:40,400 --> 00:12:41,400 som jag nämnde
244 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:42,400 att vi behöver
245 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:43,400 det som World Health Organization
246 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:44,400 kallar för B-Monks
247 00:12:44,400 --> 00:12:46,400 eller basic emergency obstetric
248 00:12:46,400 --> 00:12:47,400 och newborn care
249 00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:48,400 i sjukhus
250 00:12:48,400 --> 00:12:49,400 och få kvinnor
251 00:12:49,400 --> 00:12:50,400 in i institutioner
252 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,400 för att ge födda.
253 00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:52,400 Det låter inte så sexigt
254 00:12:52,400 --> 00:12:54,400 och det är bara en sak.
255 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:55,400 Så du vill
256 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:56,400 ta många klockor.
257 00:12:56,400 --> 00:12:57,400 Du vill få många nyheter
258 00:12:57,400 --> 00:12:58,400 att slå ut.
259 00:12:58,400 --> 00:12:59,400 Så du slår ut
260 00:12:59,400 --> 00:13:01,400 lite av allt
261 00:13:01,400 --> 00:13:02,400 precis som
262 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:04,400 Sustainable Development Goals gjorde.
263 00:13:04,400 --> 00:13:05,400 Ja, rätt.
264 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:06,400 Och på andra sidan
265 00:13:06,400 --> 00:13:07,400 av spektrumet
266 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:08,400 finns det saker
267 00:13:08,400 --> 00:13:09,400 som görs idag
268 00:13:09,400 --> 00:13:10,400 som är tålbara
269 00:13:10,400 --> 00:13:11,400 men inte så bra
270 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:12,400 när du
271 00:13:12,400 --> 00:13:13,400 examinerar dem?
272 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:14,400 Ja.
273 00:13:14,400 --> 00:13:15,400 Vi gör
274 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:16,400 många saker
275 00:13:16,400 --> 00:13:17,400 som är
276 00:13:17,400 --> 00:13:18,400 lite bra.
277 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:19,400 Jag är säker på
278 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:20,400 att vi också gör
279 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:21,400 saker som är
280 00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:22,400 väldigt, väldigt dåliga
281 00:13:22,400 --> 00:13:23,400 men vi tittar inte på dem.
282 00:13:23,400 --> 00:13:24,400 Så vi tittar typiskt på
283 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:25,400 saker som är
284 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:26,400 tillräckligt bra.
285 00:13:26,400 --> 00:13:27,400 Så vi hittar
286 00:13:27,400 --> 00:13:28,400 att det finns
287 00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:29,400 många saker
288 00:13:29,400 --> 00:13:30,400 som du kan göra
289 00:13:30,400 --> 00:13:31,400 som tillverar
290 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:32,400 två, tre, fyra
291 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:33,400 hundra klockor
292 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:34,400 tillbaka i kronan.
293 00:13:34,400 --> 00:13:35,400 Det är en fin sak.
294 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:36,400 Och jag är glad
295 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:37,400 att vi gör det.
296 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:38,400 En tydlig sak
297 00:13:38,400 --> 00:13:39,400 som vi har haft många
298 00:13:39,400 --> 00:13:40,400 konversationer med
299 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:41,400 indierna om
300 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:42,400 är vatten
301 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:43,400 och sanitering.
302 00:13:43,400 --> 00:13:44,400 Så många människor
303 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:45,400 säger att det här
304 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:46,400 är en av de
305 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:47,400 mest viktiga
306 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:48,400 saker att göra
307 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:49,400 för tyvärr
308 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:50,400 om du inte har vatten
309 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:51,400 så dör du.
310 00:13:51,400 --> 00:13:52,400 Men det här
311 00:13:52,400 --> 00:13:53,400 är också
312 00:13:53,400 --> 00:13:54,400 varför alla
313 00:13:54,400 --> 00:13:55,400 som lever i världen
314 00:13:55,400 --> 00:13:56,400 faktiskt har vatten.
315 00:13:56,400 --> 00:13:57,400 Så när du
316 00:13:57,400 --> 00:13:58,400 pratar om att
317 00:13:58,400 --> 00:13:59,400 få mer vatten
318 00:13:59,400 --> 00:14:00,400 så handlar det
319 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:01,400 mycket mer om
320 00:14:01,400 --> 00:14:02,400 att få mer
321 00:14:02,400 --> 00:14:03,400 vatten.
322 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:04,400 Och det är
323 00:14:04,400 --> 00:14:05,400 väldigt viktigt
324 00:14:05,400 --> 00:14:06,400 att få vatten
325 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:07,400 eftersom det
326 00:14:07,400 --> 00:14:08,400 betyder
327 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:09,400 att särskilt
328 00:14:09,400 --> 00:14:10,400 kvinnor
329 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:11,400 särskilt
330 00:14:11,400 --> 00:14:12,400 kvinnor
331 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:13,400 inte måste
332 00:14:13,400 --> 00:14:14,400 åka långt
333 00:14:14,400 --> 00:14:15,400 för att
334 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:16,400 ta vatten
335 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:17,400 tillbaka
336 00:14:17,400 --> 00:14:18,400 så att
337 00:14:18,400 --> 00:14:19,400 mamma och
338 00:14:19,400 --> 00:14:20,400 pappa
339 00:14:20,400 --> 00:14:21,400 kan använda det.
340 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:22,400 Men
341 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:23,400 om vi tittar
342 00:14:23,400 --> 00:14:24,400 på kostnaderna
343 00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:25,400 särskilt
344 00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:26,400 om vi tittar
345 00:14:26,400 --> 00:14:27,400 på sanitering
346 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:28,400 som blir
347 00:14:28,400 --> 00:14:29,400 väldigt kall
348 00:14:29,400 --> 00:14:30,400 om vi vill
349 00:14:30,400 --> 00:14:31,400 hålla den
350 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:32,400 så är det
351 00:14:32,400 --> 00:14:33,400 väldigt bra.
352 00:14:33,400 --> 00:14:34,400 Och många
353 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:35,400 av dessa
354 00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:36,400 är inte
355 00:14:36,400 --> 00:14:37,400 gjorda bra.
356 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:38,400 Så du
357 00:14:38,400 --> 00:14:39,400 kan bara
358 00:14:39,400 --> 00:14:40,400 hitta en
359 00:14:40,400 --> 00:14:41,400 liten
360 00:14:41,400 --> 00:14:42,400 lager
361 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:43,400 för att
362 00:14:43,400 --> 00:14:44,400 berätta till
363 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:45,400 regeringen
364 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:46,400 och kanske
365 00:14:46,400 --> 00:14:47,400 berätta till
366 00:14:47,400 --> 00:14:48,400 de svenska
367 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:49,400 regeringarna
368 00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:50,400 också.
369 00:14:50,400 --> 00:14:51,400 Vi har gjort något
370 00:14:51,400 --> 00:14:52,400 för sanitering
371 00:14:52,400 --> 00:14:53,400 så du måste
372 00:14:53,400 --> 00:14:54,400 ha en
373 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:55,400 insats
374 00:14:55,400 --> 00:14:56,400 men den
375 00:14:56,400 --> 00:14:57,400 är aldrig
376 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:58,400 använda
377 00:14:58,400 --> 00:14:59,400 för att det
378 00:14:59,400 --> 00:15:00,400 smäller
379 00:15:00,400 --> 00:15:01,400 men om vi
380 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:02,400 inte har
381 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:03,400 tillräckligt
382 00:15:03,400 --> 00:15:04,400 resurser
383 00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:05,400 så kanske
384 00:15:05,400 --> 00:15:06,400 vi ska fokusera
385 00:15:06,400 --> 00:15:07,400 på att göra
386 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:08,400 de
387 00:15:08,400 --> 00:15:09,400 otroligt
388 00:15:09,400 --> 00:15:10,400 goda
389 00:15:10,400 --> 00:15:11,400 sakerna
390 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:12,400 först.
391 00:15:12,400 --> 00:15:13,400 Hur familiar
392 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:14,400 är du
393 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:15,400 med
394 00:15:15,400 --> 00:15:16,400 de
395 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:17,400 politikerna
396 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:18,400 i
397 00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,400 Sverige?
398 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:20,400 Jag bor
399 00:15:20,400 --> 00:15:21,400 i
400 00:15:21,400 --> 00:15:22,400 södra
401 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:23,400 Sverige
402 00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:24,400 på
403 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:25,400 andra
404 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:26,400 sidan
405 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:27,400 av
406 00:15:27,400 --> 00:15:28,400 Copenhagen.
407 00:15:28,400 --> 00:15:29,400 Jag vet
408 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:30,400 inte hur
409 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:31,400 det är
410 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:32,400 att vara
411 00:15:32,400 --> 00:15:33,400 politiker
412 00:15:33,400 --> 00:15:34,400 men jag
413 00:15:34,400 --> 00:15:35,400 har
414 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:36,400 haft
415 00:15:36,400 --> 00:15:37,400 det
416 00:15:37,400 --> 00:15:38,400 med
417 00:15:38,400 --> 00:15:39,400 honom
418 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:40,400 i
419 00:15:40,400 --> 00:15:41,400 år.
420 00:15:41,400 --> 00:15:42,400 Jag gav
421 00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:43,400 honom
422 00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:44,400 boken
423 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:45,400 och han
424 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:46,400 gillade
425 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:47,400 idéen
426 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:48,400 men
427 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:49,400 han är
428 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:50,400 också
429 00:15:50,400 --> 00:15:51,400 politiker.
430 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:52,400 Så du
431 00:15:52,400 --> 00:15:53,400 gav
432 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:54,400 honom
433 00:15:54,400 --> 00:15:55,400 den
434 00:15:55,400 --> 00:15:56,400 korta
435 00:15:56,400 --> 00:15:57,400 versionen?
436 00:15:57,400 --> 00:15:58,400 Jag gav
437 00:15:58,400 --> 00:15:59,400 honom
438 00:15:59,400 --> 00:16:00,400 boken
439 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:01,400 och han
440 00:16:01,400 --> 00:16:02,400 gillade
441 00:16:02,400 --> 00:16:03,400 att göra
442 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:04,400 effektiva
443 00:16:04,400 --> 00:16:05,400 politiker.
444 00:16:05,400 --> 00:16:06,400 Han
445 00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:07,400 instruerade
446 00:16:07,400 --> 00:16:08,400 CETA
447 00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:09,400 att
448 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:10,400 spara
449 00:16:10,400 --> 00:16:11,400 deras
450 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:12,400 pengar
451 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:13,400 mer
452 00:16:13,400 --> 00:16:14,400 effektivt.
453 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:15,400 Men det finns
454 00:16:15,400 --> 00:16:16,400 också
455 00:16:16,400 --> 00:16:17,400 alla
456 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:18,400 andra
457 00:16:18,400 --> 00:16:19,400 pushar.
458 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:20,400 Vi
459 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:21,400 får
460 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:22,400 det
461 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:23,400 över
462 00:16:23,400 --> 00:16:24,400 Europa,
463 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:25,400 Kanada,
464 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:26,400 Australien
465 00:16:26,400 --> 00:16:27,400 och
466 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:28,400 Ukraina.
467 00:16:28,400 --> 00:16:29,400 Vi har
468 00:16:29,400 --> 00:16:30,400 mycket pengar
469 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:31,400 på
470 00:16:31,400 --> 00:16:32,400 flyktingar.
471 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:33,400 Så pengarna
472 00:16:33,400 --> 00:16:34,400 som går
473 00:16:34,400 --> 00:16:35,400 till
474 00:16:35,400 --> 00:16:36,400 dåliga
475 00:16:36,400 --> 00:16:37,400 människor
476 00:16:37,400 --> 00:16:38,400 är
477 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:39,400 lite
478 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:40,400 restriktivt.
479 00:16:40,400 --> 00:16:41,400 Och
480 00:16:41,400 --> 00:16:42,400 inom
481 00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:43,400 det
482 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:44,400 gör vi
483 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:45,400 många
484 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:46,400 olika
485 00:16:46,400 --> 00:16:47,400 saker.
486 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:48,400 Jag tror
487 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:49,400 att
488 00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:50,400 Benjamin
489 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:51,400 Dusser
490 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:52,400 har
491 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:53,400 hjärtat
492 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:54,400 på
493 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:55,400 rätt
494 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:56,400 plats.
495 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,400 Det är
496 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:58,400 inte
497 00:16:58,400 --> 00:16:59,400 att säga
498 00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:00,400 att jag
499 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:01,400 vill göra
500 00:17:01,400 --> 00:17:02,400 allt,
501 00:17:02,400 --> 00:17:03,400 utan att
502 00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:04,400 säga
503 00:17:04,400 --> 00:17:05,400 att jag
504 00:17:05,400 --> 00:17:06,400 bara
505 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:07,400 vill göra
506 00:17:07,400 --> 00:17:08,400 några
507 00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,400 saker
508 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:10,400 riktigt
509 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:11,400 bra.
510 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:12,400 Har
511 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:13,400 problemet
512 00:17:13,400 --> 00:17:14,400 med
513 00:17:14,400 --> 00:17:15,400 dåliga
514 00:17:15,400 --> 00:17:16,400 prioriteringar
515 00:17:16,400 --> 00:17:17,400 gått
516 00:17:17,400 --> 00:17:18,400 bättre
517 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:19,400 eller
518 00:17:19,400 --> 00:17:20,400 värre
519 00:17:20,400 --> 00:17:21,400 under
520 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:22,400 tiden?
521 00:17:22,400 --> 00:17:23,400 Jag
522 00:17:23,400 --> 00:17:24,400 tror att
523 00:17:24,400 --> 00:17:25,400 vi har
524 00:17:25,400 --> 00:17:26,400 gjort
525 00:17:26,400 --> 00:17:27,400 mycket
526 00:17:27,400 --> 00:17:28,400 bättre
527 00:17:28,400 --> 00:17:29,400 än vad
528 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:30,400 vi hade
529 00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:31,400 förr.
530 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:32,400 Vi
531 00:17:32,400 --> 00:17:33,400 vet inte
532 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:34,400 vem
533 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:35,400 CETA
534 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:36,400 hjälper
535 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:37,400 eftersom
536 00:17:37,400 --> 00:17:38,400 de är
537 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:39,400 långt
538 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:40,400 bort.
539 00:17:40,400 --> 00:17:41,400 Vi
540 00:17:41,400 --> 00:17:42,400 använder
541 00:17:42,400 --> 00:17:43,400 berättelser
542 00:17:43,400 --> 00:17:44,400 från
543 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:45,400 dig och
544 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:46,400 andra
545 00:17:46,400 --> 00:17:47,400 journalister
546 00:17:47,400 --> 00:17:48,400 som
547 00:17:48,400 --> 00:17:49,400 säger
548 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:50,400 att
549 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:51,400 det är
550 00:17:51,400 --> 00:17:52,400 bra
551 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:53,400 för
552 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:54,400 att
553 00:17:54,400 --> 00:17:55,400 göra
554 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:56,400 något
555 00:17:56,400 --> 00:17:57,400 bra
556 00:17:57,400 --> 00:17:58,400 och
557 00:17:58,400 --> 00:17:59,400 det är
558 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:00,400 en
559 00:18:00,400 --> 00:18:01,400 mycket
560 00:18:01,400 --> 00:18:02,400 svårare
561 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:03,400 argument.
562 00:18:03,400 --> 00:18:04,400 Jag
563 00:18:04,400 --> 00:18:05,400 tror att
564 00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:06,400 vi
565 00:18:06,400 --> 00:18:07,400 alltid
566 00:18:07,400 --> 00:18:08,400 behöver
567 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:09,400 någon
568 00:18:09,400 --> 00:18:10,400 som
569 00:18:10,400 --> 00:18:11,400 mig
570 00:18:11,400 --> 00:18:12,400 att
571 00:18:12,400 --> 00:18:13,400 säga
572 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:14,400 att
573 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:15,400 vi
574 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:16,400 ska
575 00:18:16,400 --> 00:18:17,400 göra
576 00:18:17,400 --> 00:18:18,400 bättre.
577 00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:19,400 Kan
578 00:18:19,400 --> 00:18:20,400 vi
579 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:21,400 alltid
580 00:18:21,400 --> 00:18:22,400 förstå
581 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:23,400 kost-
582 00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:24,400 krona?
583 00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:25,400 Ja,
584 00:18:25,400 --> 00:18:26,400 det är
585 00:18:26,400 --> 00:18:27,400 en
586 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:28,400 olycklig
587 00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:29,400 vetenskap.
588 00:18:29,400 --> 00:18:30,400 Vi vet
589 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:31,400 inga
590 00:18:31,400 --> 00:18:32,400 saker.
591 00:18:32,400 --> 00:18:33,400 Vi vet inte
592 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:34,400 exakt
593 00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:35,400 vad som
594 00:18:35,400 --> 00:18:36,400 kommer
595 00:18:36,400 --> 00:18:37,400 att användas
596 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:38,400 och hur
597 00:18:38,400 --> 00:18:39,400 det kommer
598 00:18:39,400 --> 00:18:40,400 att användas.
599 00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:41,400 Så
600 00:18:41,400 --> 00:18:42,400 när jag
601 00:18:42,400 --> 00:18:43,400 berättar
602 00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,400 dig att
603 00:18:44,400 --> 00:18:45,400 sanitation
604 00:18:45,400 --> 00:18:46,400 ger dig
605 00:18:46,400 --> 00:18:47,400 3 kronor
606 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:48,400 till
607 00:18:48,400 --> 00:18:49,400 dollar
608 00:18:49,400 --> 00:18:50,400 eller 3 kronor
609 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:51,400 till kronor
610 00:18:51,400 --> 00:18:52,400 eller
611 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:53,400 2 kronor
612 00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:54,400 till kronor
613 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:55,400 men
614 00:18:55,400 --> 00:18:56,400 andra
615 00:18:56,400 --> 00:18:57,400 delen
616 00:18:57,400 --> 00:18:58,400 av
617 00:18:58,400 --> 00:18:59,400 frågan
618 00:18:59,400 --> 00:19:00,400 är det
619 00:19:00,400 --> 00:19:01,400 inga
620 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:02,400 saker.
621 00:19:02,400 --> 00:19:03,400 Absolut.
622 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:04,400 Vi
623 00:19:04,400 --> 00:19:05,400 använder
624 00:19:05,400 --> 00:19:06,400 alla kost-
625 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,400 och
626 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:08,400 fördelar.
627 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:09,400 Det är
628 00:19:09,400 --> 00:19:10,400 inte bara
629 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:11,400 finansiell
630 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:12,400 analys
631 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:13,400 utan också
632 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,400 om social-
633 00:19:14,400 --> 00:19:15,400 och
634 00:19:15,400 --> 00:19:16,400 miljöfördåd.
635 00:19:16,400 --> 00:19:17,400 Vi
636 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:18,400 försöker
637 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:19,400 att ta
638 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:20,400 in alla
639 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:21,400 kostnader.
640 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,900 The the cost benefit analysis.
641 00:19:24,140 --> 00:19:32,100 So in a sense, if you will, we're the guys who give society a menu, but a menu with prices and sizes.
642 00:19:32,340 --> 00:19:37,340 We give you a sense of if you spend money here, you'll get this much good and it'll cost you this much.
643 00:19:37,760 --> 00:19:41,060 But whether you want to do that is obviously a political question.
644 00:19:41,060 --> 00:19:50,440 This is not economists saying that's how the world should be, but it's helping political politicians and voters to make better decisions.
645 00:19:50,440 --> 00:20:01,360 But again, you know, I would imagine that when we talk about equality, these policies that we're advocating are typically policies that help the very weakest, the very poorest.
646 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:10,040 For instance, when we talk about tuberculosis, one of the reasons why tuberculosis has not been fixed is because it mostly hit very poor people.
647 00:20:10,160 --> 00:20:15,920 So people in slum areas, people in prisons, people in migrant communities and mining, that kind of thing.
648 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:19,420 People who are outside a much of polite society.
649 00:20:19,420 --> 00:20:24,100 And so they often don't vote and therefore they don't get any health care.
650 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:29,540 We can help deal with that, but that's exactly helping with equality as well.
651 00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:34,680 So it's very likely that much of this overlaps, just like when we talk about maternal and newborn health.
652 00:20:34,980 --> 00:20:44,360 The moms who don't go to institutions, the moms whose kids die in their first 30 days are very likely not the richest, but the poorest of the people.
653 00:20:44,360 --> 00:20:49,360 So again, I think a lot of these overlap, but it's not a precise overlap.
654 00:20:49,420 --> 00:20:52,420 So yes, there are other things to look at.
655 00:20:52,780 --> 00:21:09,060 But again, when you're confronted with a policy that does three kronors back and one that does 87 kronors back, there's a lot of leeway to make sure that you do the very best.
656 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:11,600 What are your hopes for the future?
657 00:21:11,740 --> 00:21:14,260 Are the politicians starting to get this?
658 00:21:14,380 --> 00:21:17,500 Are they more down your alley now than, say, 10 years ago?
659 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:18,860 I think so.
660 00:21:19,040 --> 00:21:19,400 I mean...
661 00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:26,920 Obviously, 10 years ago or 11 years ago, all the politicians decided we're going to promise everything to everyone, which didn't work.
662 00:21:26,980 --> 00:21:28,800 And we knew already back then it wouldn't work.
663 00:21:29,060 --> 00:21:32,740 But I think a lot more people are realizing, oh, wait, this doesn't work.
664 00:21:32,740 --> 00:21:40,140 You know, I think a lot of politicians were hoping if we promise the stars, everyone will want to give more development aid.
665 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:42,580 But of course, that's exactly the opposite of what happened.
666 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:49,040 We've been very stingy for quite a while and now with Trump, but also the UK, Germany, France.
667 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,900 Even Norway, in some sense, and also Sweden, somewhat cutting.
668 00:21:53,520 --> 00:21:55,440 Often it's sort of below the surface.
669 00:21:56,260 --> 00:22:00,480 We're realizing we have to do better because we have less and less resources.
670 00:22:00,820 --> 00:22:03,780 We really have to do the most good we can with every kronor.
671 00:22:03,980 --> 00:22:05,440 So I think there's a lot more interest.
672 00:22:06,620 --> 00:22:09,820 Again, my hope is that we get better at doing this.
673 00:22:09,940 --> 00:22:13,440 I would love for us to just do the very most effective things.
674 00:22:13,620 --> 00:22:15,880 That'll never happen because that's not how politics work.
675 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:18,680 But if we can push people to spend smarter.
676 00:22:18,680 --> 00:22:19,420 That'd be great.
677 00:22:20,260 --> 00:22:27,200 Come to 2030 and we get the result back and see that maybe just a fifth or a fourth of the goals has been met.
678 00:22:27,700 --> 00:22:30,120 What would be the effect of that, do you think?
679 00:22:30,300 --> 00:22:32,340 Would we be, what would you say?
680 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:35,520 I forgot the word, but really sad about it.
681 00:22:35,860 --> 00:22:37,560 Okay, should we be happy or sad?
682 00:22:37,980 --> 00:22:44,760 So I think one of the things I've been constantly arguing and I think there's a lot of good data for is
683 00:22:44,760 --> 00:22:48,660 the world is mostly a place that gets better and better.
684 00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:54,900 We have a tendency, remember, when we read Svenska Dagbladet or any other news outlet in the world.
685 00:22:55,260 --> 00:23:01,760 You guys are put in the world to basically give us a collection of all the worst things that happened in the last 24 hours.
686 00:23:01,780 --> 00:23:02,100 That's my job.
687 00:23:02,300 --> 00:23:03,060 That's your job.
688 00:23:03,400 --> 00:23:06,620 And so we get a sense that everything is coming apart.
689 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:11,940 But we often forget the long-term trends show us things are getting better and better.
690 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:17,760 We have lifted way over a billion people out of poverty in the last 25 years.
691 00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:26,020 Actually, every day, every 24 hours, Svenska Dagbladet and every other newspaper in the world could have had as a headline
692 00:23:26,020 --> 00:23:30,040 138,000 people were lifted out of extreme poverty.
693 00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,380 Every day for 25 years.
694 00:23:31,660 --> 00:23:34,740 We don't hear this, but we need to remember.
695 00:23:35,140 --> 00:23:38,660 Overall, fewer people die, fewer kids die.
696 00:23:39,020 --> 00:23:41,180 We have much better education.
697 00:23:41,420 --> 00:23:44,480 We have much better opportunity in many different ways.
698 00:23:44,520 --> 00:23:46,960 And we've lifted, as I said, many people out of poverty.
699 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:47,480 But we don't hear this.
700 00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:47,620 We don't hear this.
701 00:23:47,620 --> 00:23:47,740 We don't hear this.
702 00:23:47,740 --> 00:23:51,320 So come 2030, mostly we'll be better off.
703 00:23:51,500 --> 00:23:56,140 But the real depressing outcome is we could have been even better off.
704 00:23:56,240 --> 00:23:58,960 We could have had even fewer kids dying.
705 00:23:59,080 --> 00:24:02,760 We could have even fewer people in extreme poverty and so on.
706 00:24:03,020 --> 00:24:05,760 And so the real loss is we could have done better.
707 00:24:05,900 --> 00:24:15,180 And of course, that means that by 2030, we should certainly make sure we don't make the same mistake and promise for 2045 that we're going to do all these things again.
708 00:24:15,180 --> 00:24:16,640 But much more importantly.
709 00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:18,820 This is 2026.
710 00:24:19,420 --> 00:24:22,720 We should do an incredible amount of good this year and next year.
711 00:24:22,780 --> 00:24:23,940 Not wait till 2030.
712 00:24:24,900 --> 00:24:25,900 Another question.
713 00:24:26,120 --> 00:24:29,900 Hasn't the progress slowed down a bit since about 2020?
714 00:24:30,740 --> 00:24:31,000 Yes.
715 00:24:31,540 --> 00:24:32,340 And why is that?
716 00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:34,400 Well, a lot of reasons.
717 00:24:34,960 --> 00:24:40,960 So much of the COVID problems hit the developing world a lot.
718 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:44,420 We were very, very worried in the rich world.
719 00:24:44,420 --> 00:24:46,080 And we could afford to be that.
720 00:24:46,080 --> 00:25:03,340 So a lot of countries, not Sweden to its credit, but a lot of countries decided to shut down almost entirely in order to preserve and safeguard really old people, which is a conversation that has been ongoing without the right decision.
721 00:25:03,660 --> 00:25:07,960 But at least in a very rich country where you have lots of old people, that makes some sense.
722 00:25:07,960 --> 00:25:15,960 But unfortunately, most of the poor countries in the world have very few old people and don't and can't afford to shut down.
723 00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:18,100 Yet they still shut down.
724 00:25:18,180 --> 00:25:19,860 They also shut down their schools.
725 00:25:20,520 --> 00:25:23,460 And that means that a lot of kids got behind.
726 00:25:23,780 --> 00:25:32,760 The World Bank actually estimate this will cost more than $1.2 trillion per year come 2040 in the sense that school kids are going to be less well off.
727 00:25:32,860 --> 00:25:34,540 They're going to be less well educated.
728 00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:35,500 This is terrible.
729 00:25:35,620 --> 00:25:38,580 And we need to go back and try to redo that.
730 00:25:38,580 --> 00:25:45,760 And one of the things, of course, is as we talk about, there are some very smart ways to dramatically increase the efficiency of school.
731 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:47,640 We don't do that so much.
732 00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:53,280 It's about getting structured teacher plans and it's about getting kids taught at their right level.
733 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,900 So each for individual level.
734 00:25:54,900 --> 00:25:59,760 You could do that, for instance, with a laptop, with educational software, sorry, a tablet with educational software.
735 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:01,740 These are very simple things.
736 00:26:01,740 --> 00:26:04,480 We should go in and make sure we do much more of that.
737 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:08,880 That's one way of getting the world out of the rut, so to speak.
738 00:26:08,940 --> 00:26:11,100 But look, we're not going to be able to manage all of it.
739 00:26:11,100 --> 00:26:13,860 And certainly Sweden is not going to manage to do all of it.
740 00:26:14,100 --> 00:26:15,520 But if we start that conversation.
741 00:26:15,520 --> 00:26:21,760 So I'm actually here for the goalkeepers, Bill Gates, later today in Stockholm.
742 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:26,360 And one of the things he's pushing for is exactly some of these incredibly effective things.
743 00:26:26,740 --> 00:26:31,180 And so I would love us to do more on the really effective things.
744 00:26:31,500 --> 00:26:37,980 And I think Sweden could be a land country leading that charge in the world.
745 00:26:38,180 --> 00:26:41,540 We're not going to fix everything, but we are going to fix some of the most important things.
746 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,860 And back to my original question.
747 00:26:44,180 --> 00:26:45,480 Covid was amazing.
748 00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:46,060 You just sat back.
749 00:26:46,320 --> 00:26:46,440 Yeah.
750 00:26:46,620 --> 00:26:46,980 Okay.
751 00:26:48,900 --> 00:26:50,440 You mentioned Bill Gates.
752 00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:56,060 In November last year, the world leaders met in Brazil for yet another climate summit.
753 00:26:56,740 --> 00:27:02,760 Prior to this summit, you wrote in Svenska Dagbladet that world leaders ought to be listening more to Bill Gates.
754 00:27:03,340 --> 00:27:05,980 What was his message and why was he right?
755 00:27:07,460 --> 00:27:11,380 So for a very long time, we've been very worried about climate change.
756 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,420 So there's been this dominant sort of narrative.
757 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:21,000 Narrative that the world is ending unless we're going to do a lot against climate change.
758 00:27:21,280 --> 00:27:22,860 And that has never been true.
759 00:27:23,100 --> 00:27:24,500 Climate change is a real problem.
760 00:27:24,580 --> 00:27:27,240 It's a man-made problem, but it's not the end of the world.
761 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:32,600 It's a problem along with many, many other problems we need to fix in the 21st century.
762 00:27:33,340 --> 00:27:45,300 And what Bill Gates said and what I thought was really incredibly clever way of putting it was we should not be talking in Belem and Brazil or any other climate summit or really any other.
763 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:47,880 Policy at all about targets.
764 00:27:47,980 --> 00:27:52,800 We shouldn't be talking about, oh, net zero by 2050 or one and a half degrees or two degrees.
765 00:27:53,200 --> 00:27:59,280 We should be talking about what will be the impact on human welfare of all these policies.
766 00:27:59,420 --> 00:28:04,700 Because what that tells you is what will be the actual outcome of all of these things.
767 00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:11,320 Detta meddelande riktar sig till dig som är över 25 år och redan använder nikotinprodukter.
768 00:28:11,460 --> 00:28:14,420 Vit snus innehåller nikotin som är ett mycket beroendeframkallande ämne.
769 00:28:14,540 --> 00:28:17,140 Snusbolaget.se är Sveriges största e-handel.
770 00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:25,840 På snusbolaget.se hittar du enkelt ditt snus bland över 600 smaker och många kunder kan få doserna levererade redan nästa dag.
771 00:28:26,060 --> 00:28:29,340 Beställ smartare på snusbolaget.se.
772 00:28:31,610 --> 00:28:33,850 Du, ska vi vända paj?
773 00:28:35,070 --> 00:28:36,650 Men gud, så gott.
774 00:28:37,110 --> 00:28:41,770 Tänker du också på en krämegonst skinkpaj eller någon annan av Felix goda lunchrätter?
775 00:28:42,230 --> 00:28:44,110 Felix, alltid lite godare.
776 00:28:47,580 --> 00:28:51,580 Och en av de saker som har dögat klimatpolitiken för väldigt länge.
777 00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,920 Det är att vi avslutar med att göra väldigt kallt förväntningar.
778 00:28:54,920 --> 00:29:03,180 Tänk dig om alla de rika länderna gick nettserat vid 2050, vilket är vad nästan alla rika länder utanför USA vill göra.
779 00:29:04,180 --> 00:29:08,880 Det här skulle kosta litteralt hundratals av trillions av dollar över året.
780 00:29:09,140 --> 00:29:11,220 Men det skulle inte ha någon effekt idag.
781 00:29:11,500 --> 00:29:13,720 Det skulle ha en liten effekt vid 2050.
782 00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:17,440 Och det skulle minska temperaturerna, om du runnade det här i EU-klimatmodellen,
783 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,620 runt 0,1 grader vid slutet av året.
784 00:29:20,620 --> 00:29:21,560 Så du...
785 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:23,600 Kanske inte kunde mäta det.
786 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,080 Att spara så mycket pengar nu,
787 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:29,080 för att hjälpa människor, väldigt lite, i 100 år,
788 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:30,580 är inte ett väldigt bra deal.
789 00:29:30,580 --> 00:29:34,560 Vi estimerar att den vanliga betalen på det är, för varje krona du spenderar,
790 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,080 du gör ungefär 17 öre av bra.
791 00:29:37,080 --> 00:29:39,080 Vilket är verkligen ett dåligt...
792 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:42,740 Jag menar, du kan bara ha givit pengarna bort, och du hade gjort sju gånger bättre.
793 00:29:42,740 --> 00:29:44,740 Men poängen här är,
794 00:29:44,740 --> 00:29:48,380 att om du börjar säga, hur kan vi hjälpa människor bättre?
795 00:29:48,380 --> 00:29:50,380 Hur kan vi göra människan bättre?
796 00:29:50,380 --> 00:29:50,980 Om du tänker på...
797 00:29:50,980 --> 00:29:53,980 En människa, en människa och en människa i svår värld,
798 00:29:53,980 --> 00:29:55,980 som har sina barn.
799 00:29:55,980 --> 00:29:58,980 De kan dö från småsäkriga infektionssäkerheter,
800 00:29:58,980 --> 00:30:00,980 från malaria till exempel.
801 00:30:00,980 --> 00:30:01,980 De har inget mat.
802 00:30:01,980 --> 00:30:02,980 De har en dålig utbildning.
803 00:30:02,980 --> 00:30:04,980 Det är alla dessa typer av frågor.
804 00:30:04,980 --> 00:30:08,980 Hennes primära prioritet är inte för dig och mig,
805 00:30:08,980 --> 00:30:12,980 att hjälpa att minska temperaturerna i 100 år vid 0,1 grader.
806 00:30:12,980 --> 00:30:14,980 Det är inte hennes primära prioritet.
807 00:30:14,980 --> 00:30:19,980 Det är förstås för att rädda malaria, rädda tuberkulosen, rädda nutriktionen, rädda utbildningen.
808 00:30:19,980 --> 00:30:20,500 Det är förstås för att rädda malaria, rädda tuberkulosen, rädda utbildningen.
809 00:30:20,500 --> 00:30:21,500 Det är förstås för att rädda malaria, rädda utbildningen.
810 00:30:21,500 --> 00:30:22,500 Det är förstås för att rädda malaria, rädda utbildningen.
811 00:30:22,500 --> 00:30:24,500 Och minns du, om vi gör det,
812 00:30:24,500 --> 00:30:27,000 om vi skapar personer som är ubsjukta
813 00:30:27,000 --> 00:30:31,500 ur god utbildning, ur våldsutbildning,
814 00:30:31,500 --> 00:30:34,500 inte bara så blir det goda saker för dem själva,
815 00:30:34,500 --> 00:30:37,500 det betyder även att de blir mycket mer resilient
816 00:30:37,500 --> 00:30:39,500 till det som klimatet sker för dem.
817 00:30:39,500 --> 00:30:42,500 Så också, det Bill sa att
818 00:30:42,500 --> 00:30:46,500 om man stoppar med att tänka att det är den slutledande världen,
819 00:30:46,500 --> 00:30:48,500 men börjar förstå att det är ett problem,
820 00:30:48,500 --> 00:30:49,500 tillsammans med många andra problem,
821 00:30:49,500 --> 00:31:14,420 What we're doing on climate will do comparatively little compared to all the other things we could do that would help much more now and of course also help much more in the future because if you take this moms kids out of poverty and disease, they will grow up, get their own kids and be much better off and be much better able to make sure that their kids get even better off.
822 00:31:14,420 --> 00:31:28,320 So by 2100 they will live in a much better world and that I think is one of the big teachings that we need to take away. We need to stop being so preoccupied with climate that we forget about all the other problems in the world.
823 00:31:28,320 --> 00:31:44,400 This does not mean, I mean we're a smart civilization, we can walk and chew gum, we can do several things at once but we should spend less money more smartly on climate and we should spend the money that we want to help the poor world much more smartly so we actually end up helping.
824 00:31:44,420 --> 00:31:55,140 And the same question again, the politicians that met in Brazil and will meet this year as well, have they started listening to Bill Gates and to you?
825 00:31:55,700 --> 00:32:09,300 Well, first of all, the people who are going to meet, who met in Belém and are going to meet in, I think, Turkey, I can't quite figure out because there are two countries I wanted to run this, but yeah, they're going to meet in another nice place in a little year.
826 00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:14,320 They're all, obviously, all climate people, so you know, not surprising at all.
827 00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:21,820 If you ask a climate person, what's the biggest problem? They'll obviously say climate. If you ask a health person, what's the biggest problem? They'll obviously say health.
828 00:32:22,500 --> 00:32:35,240 It's our job as voters and it's the politicians' job as politicians to say, okay, but I get that all of you want the money for yourself, but we have to make the hard calls of saying, where do our money go to?
829 00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:43,460 So, if you want to fix climate change, what you need to understand is, this is not about virtue signaling in the rich world.
830 00:32:43,460 --> 00:32:55,980 So, whatever the rich world does is a tiny bit in the 21st century emissions. We're going to be about 13%. Realistically, we can cut about 5 of those percent by 2050.
831 00:32:56,420 --> 00:33:10,000 So, we can do nothing. What really matters is, can we get China, India, Africa, Brazil, Indonesia on board? And we can't unless we make green energy cheaper than fossil fuels.
832 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,000 So, what we really need to do is to focus on innovation.
833 00:33:13,460 --> 00:33:27,420 Innovation in green energy. And just to give you one example, if we could make fourth generation nuclear or fusion, if we could make fusion work, if we could make it cheaper than fossil fuels, everyone would switch.
834 00:33:27,420 --> 00:33:34,900 You wouldn't have to have a conversation. You wouldn't have to meet at all these UN summits because the economics would have made it cheaper.
835 00:33:35,580 --> 00:33:42,120 That's the way you solve big problems, through innovation. And we have spent much, much less on innovation than what we promised.
836 00:33:42,120 --> 00:33:52,000 We've actually stayed pretty much at the same level for the last 20 years. We've gone down dramatically since the 1980s because we've been so focused on doing virtue signaling.
837 00:33:52,220 --> 00:34:06,900 So, Swedish, Danish, pretty much all well-meaning rich world people will have put up lots of wind turbines and solar panels and say, see, rather than investing in green energy R&D, which is the way that you're actually going to get this solved.
838 00:34:07,600 --> 00:34:11,900 That's quite surprising because I thought that green innovation got...
839 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:16,159 All the funding it needed, but the numbers says otherwise.
840 00:34:16,159 --> 00:34:25,380 So, what you have to remember is we spent a lot of money on stuff we know doesn't work. So, the stuff that actually have to have subsidies and have special regulations.
841 00:34:25,780 --> 00:34:30,020 So, we spent a lot of money on existing wind turbines and existing solar panels.
842 00:34:30,260 --> 00:34:38,780 But the reality is we need to get much better, that is, much cheaper solar panels and wind turbines, but also lots and lots of batteries.
843 00:34:38,780 --> 00:34:41,739 We're not there anywhere close to there.
844 00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:49,860 We need to spend a lot more on fourth generation nuclear, on fusion, on all these other technologies that potentially could come through.
845 00:34:50,260 --> 00:34:54,659 But the point is research and development is incredibly cheap.
846 00:34:54,940 --> 00:34:57,820 And that's why we can spend it on pretty much all of these things.
847 00:34:57,940 --> 00:35:01,220 And we just have to have one or a few of these technologies come through.
848 00:35:01,300 --> 00:35:03,680 And those are the ones that will power the 21st century.
849 00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:10,680 So, if you look at how much we've spent in percent of GDP, it was about...
850 00:35:12,120 --> 00:35:23,360 $0.08 per $100 in the 1980s, and since then, it's been about $0.03 to $0.04, so it's halved, not increased.
851 00:35:23,360 --> 00:35:39,360 And in 2015, at the Paris summit, there was another summit where Obama and Xi Jinping and the EU and many other people of goodwill actually said we had a tiny bit of influence in this.
852 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:40,980 It was called the Breakthrough Initiative,
853 00:35:40,980 --> 00:35:44,680 where they actually promised to double spending in green energy R&D.
854 00:35:44,940 --> 00:35:46,080 And we didn't know such a thing.
855 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,920 Again, because everybody focuses on building a new wind turbine farm rather than spending more on R&D.
856 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:59,700 Because the first thing you can get on the news for, and you can go and cut a ribbon, looks like you're really doing something.
857 00:35:59,700 --> 00:36:06,340 Whereas the other one, that's just funding scientists to do their thing, and maybe it won't work before 20 years.
858 00:36:06,980 --> 00:36:10,940 But we know it's the only way they'll actually fix climate change.
859 00:36:10,980 --> 00:36:16,040 And the larger R&D investments in the 1980s, has they paid off?
860 00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:24,700 So, the reason why we did it in the 1980s was because of the second oil crisis, and everybody wanted to find something else than oil.
861 00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:34,220 One way you can say it paid off, but this is somewhat far down the line, was in the fracking revolution in the US in the early 2000s.
862 00:36:34,480 --> 00:36:37,220 And remember, what fracking did for the world was essentially...
863 00:36:37,740 --> 00:36:40,960 A lot of people have very negative images of fracking.
864 00:36:40,980 --> 00:36:44,020 And there are real environmental problems with fracking.
865 00:36:44,420 --> 00:36:48,100 But fundamentally, fracking meant you can make gas much cheaper.
866 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:52,780 And that meant that the US switched massively from coal to gas.
867 00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:57,220 That by far has been the most important thing for reducing CO2.
868 00:36:57,340 --> 00:37:03,280 Because gas emits about half as much CO2 as does coal per unit of energy.
869 00:37:03,680 --> 00:37:09,580 So, it was really one of those things where you got cheaper and greener energy through innovation.
870 00:37:09,580 --> 00:37:10,800 It was not the intention.
871 00:37:10,980 --> 00:37:13,600 Back then, they wanted to find a different opportunity for oil.
872 00:37:13,980 --> 00:37:17,560 And they wanted to get rid of the dependency on Saudi Arabia.
873 00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:19,440 And the US clearly did that.
874 00:37:20,300 --> 00:37:21,460 Europe should have done the same thing.
875 00:37:21,560 --> 00:37:23,540 We should have made sure China did the same thing.
876 00:37:23,700 --> 00:37:26,000 That would have dramatically reduced emission.
877 00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:31,460 Now, this is not the full solution, because obviously, natural gas is still a fossil fuel.
878 00:37:31,560 --> 00:37:33,460 And it still emits CO2, only much less.
879 00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:37,780 But it would have been a great bridge fuel to a greener future.
880 00:37:37,980 --> 00:37:40,160 And most of the world, unfortunately, didn't do that.
881 00:37:40,980 --> 00:37:45,320 You mentioned earlier that climate change is one of the problems humanity is facing.
882 00:37:45,820 --> 00:37:48,420 Many would say that it's the problem, the greatest problem.
883 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:55,380 What if the mean temperature would rise, not two degrees, but maybe four or five degrees?
884 00:37:55,640 --> 00:37:58,100 Wouldn't that be a disaster for humanity?
885 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,800 It would be a bigger challenge.
886 00:38:03,460 --> 00:38:04,880 Would it be manageable for us?
887 00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,700 Well, I think so.
888 00:38:07,900 --> 00:38:10,940 Certainly, that's what the climate economics tell us.
889 00:38:10,980 --> 00:38:12,560 But it would definitely be a bigger problem.
890 00:38:12,940 --> 00:38:17,660 Now, all studies show that we're going to reach, by the end of the century, about three degrees.
891 00:38:17,900 --> 00:38:21,700 And so I think it's realistic to say, well, what is the impact of three degrees?
892 00:38:22,220 --> 00:38:28,660 Well, this is what climate economics has been working on for a very long time, for decades.
893 00:38:29,380 --> 00:38:33,340 And what they find is, if you look at all the costs and all the benefits,
894 00:38:33,340 --> 00:38:38,420 remember, when you have global warming, you get more heat waves, but you also get fewer cold waves.
895 00:38:38,780 --> 00:38:40,480 That means you get more people dying from heat.
896 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:40,940 But fewer people...
897 00:38:41,140 --> 00:38:43,400 You need to include all of these things.
898 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:47,860 If you include all of them, there's more disbenefits and benefits.
899 00:38:48,060 --> 00:38:49,000 That's why it's a problem.
900 00:38:49,500 --> 00:38:57,240 But what it turns out is, the net cost is equivalent to losing somewhere between 2% and 3% of GDP by the end of the century.
901 00:38:57,740 --> 00:39:02,200 This is the estimate of the only climate economist to win the Nobel Prize, William Nordhaus,
902 00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:06,920 and another one of the most quoted climate economists in the world, Richard Tull.
903 00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,820 Two meta-studies that try to take into account all of the studies.
904 00:39:11,140 --> 00:39:15,560 Remember, you very often hear the worst studies, because it's a little bit like, you know,
905 00:39:15,740 --> 00:39:17,540 is egg dangerous for you or not?
906 00:39:17,620 --> 00:39:18,660 Is coffee dangerous for you?
907 00:39:18,660 --> 00:39:21,100 You don't hear the studies that don't say they're dangerous.
908 00:39:21,240 --> 00:39:22,980 You hear the studies that say they are dangerous.
909 00:39:23,120 --> 00:39:25,640 And so you hear the very extreme scenarios.
910 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:29,980 But if you actually take the meta-study and take all of the studies, and that's what they've done,
911 00:39:30,180 --> 00:39:31,980 you come up with 2% to 3%.
912 00:39:31,980 --> 00:39:36,320 Just to give you a sense of proportion, the UN estimates that by the end of the century,
913 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:40,960 the average person in the world will be about 450% as rich as he or she is.
914 00:39:40,980 --> 00:39:41,420 Today.
915 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:43,340 So, a much, much better world.
916 00:39:43,980 --> 00:39:51,340 Because of climate change, it's going to feel like he or she is only 435% as rich.
917 00:39:51,640 --> 00:39:52,760 Now, that's a problem.
918 00:39:53,140 --> 00:39:57,100 It's obviously a problem that we didn't get to 450, but it's not the end of the world.
919 00:39:57,340 --> 00:40:01,020 It's a slightly less, much better world.
920 00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:05,040 And that's why I'm saying, and that's why the science, the climate science,
921 00:40:05,200 --> 00:40:09,160 sorry, climate economic science shows very clearly, climate change is a problem,
922 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:10,820 but it's not by any means.
923 00:40:10,820 --> 00:40:11,460 It's the end of the world.
924 00:40:11,860 --> 00:40:17,020 And that's incredibly important, because obviously, if climate was the only problem in the world,
925 00:40:17,220 --> 00:40:20,440 then we should be spending, oh, sorry, was the main problem that's going to kill us all,
926 00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,240 then obviously you should spend all of our money on that,
927 00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,420 and you should just forget about poverty and all the other things.
928 00:40:25,980 --> 00:40:28,280 But that's just not what the numbers tell us.
929 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,360 But can't you make the argument, and I know some people do,
930 00:40:31,460 --> 00:40:36,880 that the uncertainty of climate change are so big, and the risks are so big,
931 00:40:36,880 --> 00:40:40,500 so it may cost a lot of money, but it's a cheap insurance.
932 00:40:40,820 --> 00:40:43,340 For future generation, what do you think about that?
933 00:40:43,340 --> 00:40:46,540 Well, I mean, there are certainly a lot of people who make that argument.
934 00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,340 There are several things wrong with that argument.
935 00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,760 First of all, if you want to buy real insurance,
936 00:40:52,180 --> 00:40:56,940 for the vast majority of humanity, it's about getting them out of poverty.
937 00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:00,980 Not only is that great for all the other things that we worry about,
938 00:41:01,040 --> 00:41:02,760 like disease and hunger and all these things,
939 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:08,940 but it also means that they are much, much less vulnerable to climate disasters.
940 00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:10,800 If a hurricane hits,
941 00:41:10,820 --> 00:41:12,740 if a hurricane hits Florida, a few people die and that's it.
942 00:41:13,140 --> 00:41:16,980 If the same hurricane hits Guatemala, it devastates their economy
943 00:41:16,980 --> 00:41:19,760 and thousands or even tens of thousands of people die.
944 00:41:20,340 --> 00:41:26,160 So the answer here is not to try to make hurricanes slightly less worse
945 00:41:26,160 --> 00:41:27,180 by the end of the century.
946 00:41:27,300 --> 00:41:30,560 The answer, of course, is to get Guatemalans out of poverty first.
947 00:41:31,120 --> 00:41:33,660 Now, again, I sympathize with the idea of saying,
948 00:41:34,020 --> 00:41:37,000 but we should also make sure we do something good for climate.
949 00:41:37,660 --> 00:41:39,220 So there's two problems with this.
950 00:41:39,220 --> 00:41:40,100 First of all,
951 00:41:40,820 --> 00:41:42,280 so far, for the last 30 years,
952 00:41:42,540 --> 00:41:44,980 pretty much all that we've gotten from climate policy
953 00:41:44,980 --> 00:41:48,360 is rich countries virtuosicling a little bit.
954 00:41:48,460 --> 00:41:49,700 We haven't caught very much.
955 00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:55,100 I mean, we've still seen the biggest amount of emissions
956 00:41:55,100 --> 00:41:58,480 from fossil fuels in the world was last year.
957 00:41:58,760 --> 00:41:59,880 It keeps going up.
958 00:42:00,380 --> 00:42:03,760 And the reality is that even though we talk a lot about it,
959 00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:05,580 most people, not surprisingly,
960 00:42:05,760 --> 00:42:08,240 because we would do exactly the same thing as we were poor,
961 00:42:08,240 --> 00:42:10,400 decide they'd rather not be poor.
962 00:42:10,820 --> 00:42:16,820 So we have been focusing on the wrong ways to fix climate change.
963 00:42:17,080 --> 00:42:21,480 And I think it's very likely that if we keep on doing these poor policies,
964 00:42:21,660 --> 00:42:25,800 we're going to see more people voting for the likes of Donald Trump.
965 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:29,700 I don't agree with a lot of the things that Donald Trump has done,
966 00:42:29,820 --> 00:42:32,320 but I think we're seeing that also in a lot of Europe,
967 00:42:32,720 --> 00:42:36,220 right-wing populist parties that are essentially saying,
968 00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:37,860 enough, we don't want to pay for this.
969 00:42:37,860 --> 00:42:40,640 And remember, these current climate policies,
970 00:42:40,820 --> 00:42:43,600 have to be endured for decades on end.
971 00:42:43,880 --> 00:42:48,400 And most likely, most of them will be scrapped at one point or another.
972 00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,580 So instead, we need to spend less,
973 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:54,880 but spend a much smarter and dramatically increased research
974 00:42:54,880 --> 00:42:56,640 in green energy R&D,
975 00:42:56,980 --> 00:42:59,200 which would be much cheaper, much more effective,
976 00:42:59,380 --> 00:43:02,880 and also leave money for all the other problems we should be fixing.
977 00:43:03,780 --> 00:43:03,940 Right.
978 00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:06,300 Emissions is going up, that is true,
979 00:43:06,300 --> 00:43:09,080 but it's in money countries, they are going down,
980 00:43:09,240 --> 00:43:10,020 or they're not going up.
981 00:43:10,820 --> 00:43:12,820 We are getting more people and we are getting richer.
982 00:43:12,820 --> 00:43:16,420 So, per capita, emissions are falling in some countries.
983 00:43:16,420 --> 00:43:17,820 Isn't that a little bit good?
984 00:43:17,820 --> 00:43:19,020 Oh, absolutely.
985 00:43:19,020 --> 00:43:22,220 I mean, I'd rather live in a world where we cut emissions than where we don't.
986 00:43:22,720 --> 00:43:23,920 But there are real trade-offs,
987 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,120 and that's what we've spent the last, I don't know,
988 00:43:26,120 --> 00:43:28,220 half hour, three quarters of an hour talking about,
989 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:29,920 because we can't do it all.
990 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,620 So we can decide we're going to spend a significant part of our wealth
991 00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:35,020 on cutting emissions.
992 00:43:35,220 --> 00:43:37,320 Now, in a rich country like Sweden,
993 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:39,520 you can decide to do that, and you can get away with it,
994 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:40,820 and you can do this for,
995 00:43:40,820 --> 00:43:42,120 for a fairly long time.
996 00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,820 But there are also powers that eventually turn up and say,
997 00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:48,520 especially when this hurts a lot of poor people,
998 00:43:48,520 --> 00:43:50,820 because it will, poor people in rich countries,
999 00:43:50,820 --> 00:43:51,920 so poor people in Sweden,
1000 00:43:52,120 --> 00:43:56,120 who feel the struggle from having to pay an expensive energy bill,
1001 00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:58,720 who can't fill their gas tanks, so on.
1002 00:43:59,020 --> 00:44:00,320 Those are real issues,
1003 00:44:00,320 --> 00:44:04,420 and eventually that'll turn up at the ballot box.
1004 00:44:05,020 --> 00:44:07,820 But this is much, much more important to realize,
1005 00:44:08,020 --> 00:44:10,120 you can't make India,
1006 00:44:10,820 --> 00:44:13,620 Africa or Indonesia decide to say this.
1007 00:44:13,820 --> 00:44:16,620 I mean, it was somewhat underreported,
1008 00:44:16,620 --> 00:44:17,820 but I don't know if you noticed,
1009 00:44:18,620 --> 00:44:23,620 during the Brazil leadership of the latest climate conference,
1010 00:44:24,420 --> 00:44:27,420 Lula also announced that they were going to drill a lot more
1011 00:44:27,620 --> 00:44:30,020 off the coast of the Amazon forest.
1012 00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:32,620 And, you know, they were sort of challenging him and saying,
1013 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:38,920 Mr. President, you're head of the climate conference,
1014 00:44:38,920 --> 00:44:40,020 and you want everyone to cut.
1015 00:44:40,020 --> 00:44:40,620 And he was like,
1016 00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:42,420 Yeah, but we're a poor country,
1017 00:44:42,420 --> 00:44:44,420 and we also want to have more opportunity.
1018 00:44:44,420 --> 00:44:46,320 We want to get a lot more people out of poverty.
1019 00:44:46,520 --> 00:44:47,820 And that's just how it has to be.
1020 00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:49,420 And that's, of course, obvious.
1021 00:44:49,420 --> 00:44:52,520 I mean, we've recognized this because if you and I live there,
1022 00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:54,420 especially if we were poor,
1023 00:44:54,820 --> 00:44:57,720 we would want our president to do the same thing.
1024 00:44:58,920 --> 00:45:01,920 Most of climate politics are ineffective and bad.
1025 00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:05,320 Are there examples of good policies that we should do more of?
1026 00:45:06,420 --> 00:45:09,220 So, unfortunately, there has not been very many.
1027 00:45:09,220 --> 00:45:10,420 I mean, there was a big study,
1028 00:45:10,620 --> 00:45:11,720 a couple of years ago,
1029 00:45:11,720 --> 00:45:14,520 that looked at 4,000 climate policies,
1030 00:45:14,820 --> 00:45:17,820 and only 0.67%.
1031 00:45:17,820 --> 00:45:21,020 So less than 1% of them had measurable impact.
1032 00:45:21,820 --> 00:45:23,120 So what that tells you is,
1033 00:45:23,320 --> 00:45:26,620 no, most of them have just been really, really bad.
1034 00:45:27,620 --> 00:45:29,320 This doesn't mean that...
1035 00:45:30,320 --> 00:45:35,420 So I think some of these things that we do for other reasons,
1036 00:45:35,420 --> 00:45:37,020 so for air pollution reasons,
1037 00:45:37,020 --> 00:45:40,320 for instance, getting rid of coal is a great idea in much of the rich world,
1038 00:45:40,320 --> 00:45:42,220 not mainly because of climate change,
1039 00:45:42,220 --> 00:45:43,820 but because they pollute a lot.
1040 00:45:43,820 --> 00:45:45,120 And because we're rich,
1041 00:45:45,120 --> 00:45:46,720 that is actually a really bad idea
1042 00:45:46,720 --> 00:45:49,520 because they kill people from air pollution.
1043 00:45:50,020 --> 00:45:54,820 There's also the argument of getting more energy efficiency.
1044 00:45:55,020 --> 00:45:59,120 It's been good for many countries who didn't go on the fracking revolution,
1045 00:45:59,120 --> 00:46:02,620 so are dependent on having to import a lot of fossil fuels.
1046 00:46:02,620 --> 00:46:04,520 It's good, all things equal,
1047 00:46:04,820 --> 00:46:07,220 that you don't have to import as much fossil fuels
1048 00:46:07,220 --> 00:46:09,520 so that you save on energy.
1049 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:13,220 Unfortunately, no, many of these policies have just been,
1050 00:46:13,220 --> 00:46:16,620 you know, just breaking even or worse than that.
1051 00:46:17,220 --> 00:46:21,720 The plans for emission trading system in the EU, is that a good idea?
1052 00:46:22,020 --> 00:46:26,220 So it's certainly a better idea than most of these other tendencies
1053 00:46:26,220 --> 00:46:28,820 that we want to give subsidies
1054 00:46:28,820 --> 00:46:32,020 or that we want to just determine how to do this
1055 00:46:32,020 --> 00:46:35,620 because if you do it through a trading system or a carbon tax,
1056 00:46:35,620 --> 00:46:38,420 which is essentially the equivalent,
1057 00:46:38,420 --> 00:46:40,120 you get a more efficient allocation.
1058 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:42,820 So any economist would say this is an improvement.
1059 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:46,220 But again, when you're going to say by 2040,
1060 00:46:46,220 --> 00:46:49,220 we want to cut 90% of our emissions.
1061 00:46:49,620 --> 00:46:51,120 That's just ludicrous.
1062 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,220 It's not going to happen at current technology.
1063 00:46:54,220 --> 00:46:57,020 I mean, it may be that we find technologies that are so efficient
1064 00:46:57,020 --> 00:46:58,620 that we can achieve this,
1065 00:46:58,620 --> 00:47:02,320 but otherwise you're just going to get wholesale voter outrage
1066 00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:04,520 and you're going to get these policies thrown out.
1067 00:47:04,520 --> 00:47:06,320 That's part of the reason why I'm saying,
1068 00:47:06,320 --> 00:47:08,420 you know, we can promise all these nice things,
1069 00:47:08,420 --> 00:47:10,020 but once it starts getting really,
1070 00:47:10,120 --> 00:47:12,320 really expensive, voters won't have it.
1071 00:47:12,320 --> 00:47:16,720 And so again, we need to find a policy that actually works in real life
1072 00:47:16,720 --> 00:47:20,920 and not just one that makes especially green voters feel good right now.
1073 00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:25,820 And these great promises that are never going to be met
1074 00:47:25,820 --> 00:47:28,720 if you want to come to democracy
1075 00:47:28,720 --> 00:47:32,120 and what do you think about this political system and so on,
1076 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,620 are there risks and dangers that people are going,
1077 00:47:35,620 --> 00:47:37,320 yeah, the promises are never met, so they are losing faith.
1078 00:47:37,320 --> 00:47:38,420 Yeah, the promises are never met, so they are losing faith.
1079 00:47:38,420 --> 00:47:39,320 Yeah, the promises are never met, so they are losing faith.
1080 00:47:39,320 --> 00:47:39,820 Yeah, the promises are never met, so they are losing faith.
1081 00:47:39,820 --> 00:47:41,420 Yeah, the promises are never met, so they are losing faith.
1082 00:47:41,420 --> 00:47:43,720 Yeah, the promises are never met, so they are losing faith.
1083 00:47:43,720 --> 00:47:47,320 Oh, of course, I mean, it's a bad idea to have politicians promise stuff
1084 00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:48,820 that they're not actually going to achieve.
1085 00:47:48,820 --> 00:47:51,820 That was true when we talked about the sustainable development goals,
1086 00:47:51,820 --> 00:47:54,220 that's true about the climate policies.
1087 00:47:54,220 --> 00:47:58,820 But I think, whereas most politicians probably knew
1088 00:47:58,820 --> 00:48:03,220 that they were just bragging with the sustainable development goals
1089 00:48:03,220 --> 00:48:05,920 because they kind of knew, of course, we're not going to eradicate poverty
1090 00:48:05,920 --> 00:48:09,020 and eradicate hunger and eradicate infectious disease.
1091 00:48:09,020 --> 00:48:11,880 That's just silly to make these promises
1092 00:48:11,880 --> 00:48:12,840 What we should have promised
1093 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,100 Like we did in the millennium development goals
1094 00:48:15,100 --> 00:48:16,700 To cut them by two thirds
1095 00:48:16,700 --> 00:48:17,680 Or cut them by half
1096 00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:18,680 Or something realistic
1097 00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,580 That would have been sensible
1098 00:48:20,580 --> 00:48:22,960 The other thing is just propaganda
1099 00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:25,140 But I think on climate
1100 00:48:25,140 --> 00:48:27,020 A lot of people have bought in
1101 00:48:27,020 --> 00:48:28,320 A lot of politicians have bought in
1102 00:48:28,320 --> 00:48:29,640 This is the end of the world
1103 00:48:29,640 --> 00:48:31,240 So we just have to do everything
1104 00:48:31,240 --> 00:48:33,700 But of course when it comes down to it
1105 00:48:33,700 --> 00:48:36,700 For most people it is a problem
1106 00:48:36,700 --> 00:48:38,400 But it's also a problem
1107 00:48:38,400 --> 00:48:39,540 If I can't afford to
1108 00:48:39,540 --> 00:48:44,240 Fill up my gas tank in the car
1109 00:48:44,240 --> 00:48:47,700 Or afford to keep the whole house heated
1110 00:48:47,700 --> 00:48:49,220 We know for instance in many countries
1111 00:48:49,220 --> 00:48:50,960 Probably not so much here in Sweden
1112 00:48:50,960 --> 00:48:53,680 Because we have a fairly equal society
1113 00:48:53,680 --> 00:48:55,380 But in Britain for instance
1114 00:48:55,380 --> 00:48:57,520 About a third of all retirees
1115 00:48:57,520 --> 00:49:01,420 They keep parts of their house uncooled
1116 00:49:01,420 --> 00:49:03,580 Sorry, unheated in the winter
1117 00:49:03,580 --> 00:49:05,420 Because they just can't afford to
1118 00:49:05,420 --> 00:49:06,680 And many of them stay
1119 00:49:06,680 --> 00:49:09,260 In bed longer in order to stay warm
1120 00:49:09,260 --> 00:49:10,560 Those kinds of things are just
1121 00:49:10,560 --> 00:49:13,080 No, that's not how a civilized
1122 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:14,480 Developed country should be
1123 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,640 And we need to come to terms with saying
1124 00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:18,820 We shouldn't offer everything
1125 00:49:18,820 --> 00:49:20,220 On the altar of climate change
1126 00:49:20,220 --> 00:49:22,600 In order to do ineffective policies
1127 00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:24,560 We should be focusing on spending less money
1128 00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:25,560 Much more effectively
1129 00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:27,060 So we both fix climate
1130 00:49:27,060 --> 00:49:28,700 And fix all the other problems
1131 00:49:38,190 --> 00:49:41,050 Snusbolaget.se är Sveriges största e-handel
1132 00:49:41,050 --> 00:49:41,930 För vitt snus
1133 00:49:41,930 --> 00:49:45,010 På snusbolaget.se hittar du enkelt ditt snus
1134 00:49:45,010 --> 00:49:46,490 Bland över 600 smaker
1135 00:49:46,490 --> 00:49:48,870 Och många kunder kan få doserna levererade
1136 00:49:48,870 --> 00:49:49,730 Redan nästa dag
1137 00:49:49,730 --> 00:49:50,770 Beställ smartare
1138 00:49:50,770 --> 00:49:53,190 På snusbolaget.se
1139 00:49:53,190 --> 00:49:57,720 Du, ska vi vända paj?
1140 00:49:58,960 --> 00:50:00,580 Men gud, så gott
1141 00:50:00,580 --> 00:50:02,600 Tänker du också på en krämig
1142 00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:03,480 Ons skinkpaj
1143 00:50:03,480 --> 00:50:05,660 Eller någon annan av Felix goda lunchrätter
1144 00:50:05,660 --> 00:50:08,020 Felix, alltid lite godare
1145 00:50:08,020 --> 00:50:12,510 I bet on that topic
1146 00:50:12,510 --> 00:50:15,250 You argue in another of your pieces
1147 00:50:15,250 --> 00:50:15,930 From last year
1148 00:50:15,930 --> 00:50:18,230 That voters has grown tired of politicians
1149 00:50:18,230 --> 00:50:20,410 Who compete to scream the most
1150 00:50:20,410 --> 00:50:22,530 And loudest about imminent danger
1151 00:50:22,530 --> 00:50:24,570 And that's a good thing, I reckon
1152 00:50:24,570 --> 00:50:26,270 Yes, I mean, look
1153 00:50:26,270 --> 00:50:29,690 We gotta stop scaring our kids witless
1154 00:50:29,690 --> 00:50:30,890 As I mentioned
1155 00:50:30,890 --> 00:50:33,150 The fact that by the end of the century
1156 00:50:33,150 --> 00:50:36,050 The average person will only be 435%
1157 00:50:36,050 --> 00:50:36,490 As rich
1158 00:50:36,490 --> 00:50:38,430 Rather than 450%
1159 00:50:38,430 --> 00:50:40,610 Should mostly be celebrated
1160 00:50:40,610 --> 00:50:42,010 I mean, yes, it's still a problem
1161 00:50:42,010 --> 00:50:43,830 That we could have done even better
1162 00:50:43,830 --> 00:50:45,730 And yes, there's a lot of things in there
1163 00:50:45,730 --> 00:50:47,850 But this is not the end of the world
1164 00:50:47,850 --> 00:50:50,270 Us scaring kids witless
1165 00:50:50,270 --> 00:50:51,830 Has been a terrible thing
1166 00:50:51,830 --> 00:50:54,790 It's led to a lot of psychological problems
1167 00:50:54,790 --> 00:50:55,990 And quite frankly
1168 00:50:55,990 --> 00:50:57,950 I understand a lot of kids who've decided
1169 00:50:57,950 --> 00:51:00,210 No, I don't want to go to school
1170 00:51:00,210 --> 00:51:02,510 I don't want to get a kid
1171 00:51:02,510 --> 00:51:04,290 Those are terrible outcomes
1172 00:51:04,290 --> 00:51:05,050 If they're untrue
1173 00:51:05,050 --> 00:51:07,050 And I think it's very, very obvious
1174 00:51:07,050 --> 00:51:09,370 The data tells you these are untrue
1175 00:51:09,370 --> 00:51:11,790 So when we get politicians who scream
1176 00:51:11,790 --> 00:51:12,490 A little less
1177 00:51:12,490 --> 00:51:15,290 And who start having a more sensible conversation
1178 00:51:15,290 --> 00:51:17,590 Yes, climate change is one challenge
1179 00:51:17,590 --> 00:51:18,430 That we need to fix
1180 00:51:18,430 --> 00:51:19,710 Let's fix it smartly
1181 00:51:19,710 --> 00:51:22,050 So we can also afford all the other things
1182 00:51:22,050 --> 00:51:23,750 Remember, for most Europeans
1183 00:51:23,750 --> 00:51:25,330 We've started realizing
1184 00:51:25,330 --> 00:51:27,650 Oh, we gotta pay a lot more for our defense
1185 00:51:27,650 --> 00:51:29,870 Because there's actually real problems in the world
1186 00:51:29,870 --> 00:51:31,110 That could come and bite us
1187 00:51:31,110 --> 00:51:33,210 In the behind
1188 00:51:33,210 --> 00:51:34,910 In just a couple of years
1189 00:51:34,910 --> 00:51:37,350 And there are lots of other problems
1190 00:51:37,350 --> 00:51:39,570 Across the European continent
1191 00:51:39,570 --> 00:51:41,130 We're not competitive enough
1192 00:51:41,130 --> 00:51:41,770 We have very, very little
1193 00:51:41,790 --> 00:51:42,770 Very high energy prices
1194 00:51:42,770 --> 00:51:45,190 Which is one of the outcomes of climate policy
1195 00:51:45,190 --> 00:51:47,010 And we have unfunded
1196 00:51:47,010 --> 00:51:48,830 Not here in Sweden, in the Nordics
1197 00:51:48,830 --> 00:51:50,230 But in general
1198 00:51:50,230 --> 00:51:51,930 Unfunded pension systems
1199 00:51:51,930 --> 00:51:54,310 That are going to erupt really badly
1200 00:51:54,310 --> 00:51:55,390 In just a couple of decades
1201 00:51:55,390 --> 00:51:57,450 We have lots of other problems
1202 00:51:57,450 --> 00:51:59,570 Let's not make ourselves so weak
1203 00:51:59,570 --> 00:52:01,050 For one thing that doesn't work
1204 00:52:01,050 --> 00:52:03,130 Namely the current climate policies
1205 00:52:03,130 --> 00:52:05,650 That we can't actually fix all these other things
1206 00:52:05,650 --> 00:52:07,910 So we can also, I don't know, stand up to Trump
1207 00:52:07,910 --> 00:52:10,170 Another question
1208 00:52:10,170 --> 00:52:11,290 Maybe a bit of a side note
1209 00:52:11,790 --> 00:52:13,390 In Sweden, for a few years ago
1210 00:52:13,390 --> 00:52:14,550 It was a very common message
1211 00:52:14,550 --> 00:52:16,330 From politicians
1212 00:52:16,330 --> 00:52:19,730 That you didn't have to choose
1213 00:52:19,730 --> 00:52:22,770 Between economic growth and climate transition
1214 00:52:22,770 --> 00:52:24,850 Because they were walking hand in hand
1215 00:52:24,850 --> 00:52:26,070 Actually there was
1216 00:52:26,070 --> 00:52:27,830 Green transition was in itself
1217 00:52:27,830 --> 00:52:29,070 A path to growth
1218 00:52:29,070 --> 00:52:31,610 Was this never true, or was it true?
1219 00:52:31,890 --> 00:52:33,430 I don't think it was ever true
1220 00:52:33,430 --> 00:52:34,690 But it's very obvious now
1221 00:52:34,690 --> 00:52:37,130 That we can see it's not true
1222 00:52:37,130 --> 00:52:38,890 Obviously, if
1223 00:52:38,890 --> 00:52:39,830 You recognize this
1224 00:52:39,830 --> 00:52:41,430 Oh, of course
1225 00:52:41,790 --> 00:52:43,510 And the simple point is
1226 00:52:43,510 --> 00:52:46,430 Look, if green was really cheaper
1227 00:52:46,430 --> 00:52:48,670 Everyone would just be doing it
1228 00:52:48,670 --> 00:52:50,510 This is not a hard thing
1229 00:52:50,510 --> 00:52:52,410 To think about
1230 00:52:52,410 --> 00:52:55,450 If getting on the green wave
1231 00:52:55,450 --> 00:52:57,170 Was just something everyone wanted to do
1232 00:52:57,170 --> 00:53:00,290 We didn't need to have any climate summits
1233 00:53:00,290 --> 00:53:01,950 Everyone would just be doing it
1234 00:53:01,950 --> 00:53:03,610 The reason why
1235 00:53:03,610 --> 00:53:06,190 We have to twist each other's arms
1236 00:53:06,190 --> 00:53:07,170 And our own arms
1237 00:53:07,170 --> 00:53:09,590 Is of course that we're actually asking people to do
1238 00:53:09,590 --> 00:53:11,530 I'm sorry, would you mind having more
1239 00:53:11,790 --> 00:53:12,470 Of electricity
1240 00:53:12,470 --> 00:53:13,170 But at least
1241 00:53:13,170 --> 00:53:14,070 It'll not be
1242 00:53:14,070 --> 00:53:15,790 You can't be confident
1243 00:53:15,790 --> 00:53:17,270 That it'll be there when you need it
1244 00:53:17,270 --> 00:53:19,410 That's just a terrible argument
1245 00:53:19,410 --> 00:53:20,230 And of course
1246 00:53:20,230 --> 00:53:21,530 You can do this
1247 00:53:21,530 --> 00:53:23,150 Economists will always tell you
1248 00:53:23,150 --> 00:53:24,450 With enough money
1249 00:53:24,450 --> 00:53:25,490 You can do whatever you want
1250 00:53:25,490 --> 00:53:26,910 But you just can't do everything
1251 00:53:26,910 --> 00:53:29,510 And so this costs real resources
1252 00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:30,990 And that's of course why we're seeing
1253 00:53:30,990 --> 00:53:32,770 Across the European continent
1254 00:53:32,770 --> 00:53:34,130 A lot of people saying
1255 00:53:34,130 --> 00:53:35,730 No, I don't want to do this anymore
1256 00:53:35,730 --> 00:53:37,850 I think it's a tragic outcome
1257 00:53:37,850 --> 00:53:40,050 Of well-intentioned policy
1258 00:53:40,050 --> 00:53:41,770 So I think all of the green
1259 00:53:41,790 --> 00:53:42,970 People who are arguing
1260 00:53:42,970 --> 00:53:44,550 We should do something about climate change
1261 00:53:44,550 --> 00:53:45,430 They're well-intentioned
1262 00:53:45,430 --> 00:53:46,770 I mean, just like the people who are saying
1263 00:53:46,770 --> 00:53:48,110 We should do something about education
1264 00:53:48,110 --> 00:53:49,070 In the developing world
1265 00:53:49,070 --> 00:53:50,130 Or the people who are saying
1266 00:53:50,130 --> 00:53:51,050 We should get rid of malaria
1267 00:53:51,050 --> 00:53:53,670 They're all well-intentioned people
1268 00:53:53,670 --> 00:53:55,030 It just so happens
1269 00:53:55,030 --> 00:53:56,690 That the well-intentioned people
1270 00:53:56,690 --> 00:53:57,510 On climate change
1271 00:53:57,510 --> 00:53:59,110 Have been pushing a policy
1272 00:53:59,110 --> 00:54:01,350 That we knew 30 years ago
1273 00:54:01,350 --> 00:54:01,890 Wouldn't work
1274 00:54:01,890 --> 00:54:03,730 That we knew 20 or 10 years
1275 00:54:03,730 --> 00:54:04,610 Or 5 years ago
1276 00:54:04,610 --> 00:54:05,190 Wouldn't work
1277 00:54:05,190 --> 00:54:06,970 And now most people can see
1278 00:54:06,970 --> 00:54:07,790 Oh, well, yeah
1279 00:54:07,790 --> 00:54:09,010 It was really expensive
1280 00:54:09,010 --> 00:54:10,090 And didn't work very well
1281 00:54:10,090 --> 00:54:11,750 And most people are going to
1282 00:54:11,750 --> 00:54:12,730 Say no to this
1283 00:54:12,730 --> 00:54:14,910 So let's find a smarter
1284 00:54:14,910 --> 00:54:15,750 And cheaper
1285 00:54:15,750 --> 00:54:17,010 And more effective way
1286 00:54:17,010 --> 00:54:18,070 To deal with climate change
1287 00:54:18,070 --> 00:54:19,590 So we can do the exact same thing
1288 00:54:19,590 --> 00:54:20,330 That we talked about
1289 00:54:20,330 --> 00:54:21,250 In the beginning of the program
1290 00:54:21,250 --> 00:54:22,810 Namely being smart and effective
1291 00:54:22,810 --> 00:54:24,350 On all the different things
1292 00:54:24,350 --> 00:54:25,550 That we need to worry about
1293 00:54:25,550 --> 00:54:28,430 Our time is almost up
1294 00:54:28,430 --> 00:54:30,110 But just a few questions more
1295 00:54:30,110 --> 00:54:32,150 Are you familiar with the Swedish term
1296 00:54:32,150 --> 00:54:33,030 Åsiktskorridoren?
1297 00:54:33,250 --> 00:54:33,730 Oh, yes
1298 00:54:33,730 --> 00:54:35,430 I love that term
1299 00:54:35,430 --> 00:54:37,050 I don't know how to translate it
1300 00:54:37,050 --> 00:54:38,050 But it's a great term
1301 00:54:38,050 --> 00:54:40,790 I love to sort of translate it
1302 00:54:40,790 --> 00:54:41,570 When I tell other people
1303 00:54:41,570 --> 00:54:42,770 Has it been a real thing
1304 00:54:42,770 --> 00:54:44,470 When it comes to climate politics?
1305 00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:45,690 Well, certainly
1306 00:54:45,690 --> 00:54:47,490 Where I've experienced
1307 00:54:47,490 --> 00:54:48,810 I haven't been all that much
1308 00:54:48,810 --> 00:54:49,910 Involved in Swedish politics
1309 00:54:49,910 --> 00:54:51,710 But this is all over the place
1310 00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:52,610 Everybody has been
1311 00:54:52,610 --> 00:54:53,630 For a very long time
1312 00:54:53,630 --> 00:54:54,550 Saying, no, no
1313 00:54:54,550 --> 00:54:55,830 You can't say anything
1314 00:54:55,830 --> 00:54:58,290 But climate is the end of the world
1315 00:54:58,290 --> 00:54:59,750 And we need to do everything about it
1316 00:54:59,750 --> 00:55:00,610 So even though
1317 00:55:00,610 --> 00:55:02,570 I've never denied climate change
1318 00:55:02,570 --> 00:55:04,050 I've always said
1319 00:55:04,050 --> 00:55:05,090 Yes, it's a real problem
1320 00:55:05,090 --> 00:55:06,070 It's a man-made problem
1321 00:55:06,070 --> 00:55:07,470 It's something that we need to fix
1322 00:55:07,470 --> 00:55:09,050 But it's not the only
1323 00:55:09,050 --> 00:55:09,670 Oh, wait
1324 00:55:09,670 --> 00:55:11,230 You're a terrible person, right?
1325 00:55:11,310 --> 00:55:11,490 I mean
1326 00:55:11,490 --> 00:55:12,510 This was literally
1327 00:55:12,510 --> 00:55:14,650 The reaction for a very long time
1328 00:55:14,650 --> 00:55:15,950 It is no longer
1329 00:55:15,950 --> 00:55:16,530 And I think
1330 00:55:16,530 --> 00:55:18,070 Part of this is
1331 00:55:18,070 --> 00:55:19,470 Because we started realizing
1332 00:55:19,470 --> 00:55:20,370 Oh, he's right
1333 00:55:20,370 --> 00:55:21,730 But also because
1334 00:55:21,730 --> 00:55:23,230 It has become much more common
1335 00:55:23,230 --> 00:55:24,850 Like Bill Gates and many others
1336 00:55:24,850 --> 00:55:25,510 To say
1337 00:55:25,510 --> 00:55:26,570 Wait a minute
1338 00:55:26,570 --> 00:55:28,730 We actually also have other problems
1339 00:55:28,730 --> 00:55:29,410 And I think
1340 00:55:29,410 --> 00:55:31,130 The invasion of Ukraine
1341 00:55:31,130 --> 00:55:32,150 Covid
1342 00:55:32,150 --> 00:55:34,210 Have also made it clear to people
1343 00:55:34,210 --> 00:55:35,310 Oh, wait
1344 00:55:35,310 --> 00:55:36,470 We were not
1345 00:55:36,470 --> 00:55:38,730 We had this idea back in
1346 00:55:38,730 --> 00:55:39,730 When the
1347 00:55:39,730 --> 00:55:41,230 When the
1348 00:55:41,230 --> 00:55:42,230 The wall fell
1349 00:55:42,230 --> 00:55:43,930 And the whole world
1350 00:55:43,930 --> 00:55:45,410 Seemed to have all come around
1351 00:55:45,410 --> 00:55:46,470 And had a sort of
1352 00:55:46,470 --> 00:55:48,070 Western liberal democracy
1353 00:55:48,070 --> 00:55:48,670 Kind of thing
1354 00:55:48,670 --> 00:55:50,850 We thought history had ended
1355 00:55:50,850 --> 00:55:53,150 And we really just had this one problem
1356 00:55:53,150 --> 00:55:54,470 We need to fix climate change
1357 00:55:54,470 --> 00:55:55,690 Sure, it's going to be expensive
1358 00:55:55,690 --> 00:55:56,950 But we can afford it
1359 00:55:56,950 --> 00:55:57,950 And it's really the only thing
1360 00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:58,550 We need to fix
1361 00:55:58,550 --> 00:56:00,270 Now everyone realized
1362 00:56:00,270 --> 00:56:00,730 Oh, wait
1363 00:56:00,730 --> 00:56:02,570 There's a lot of other issues
1364 00:56:02,570 --> 00:56:04,110 Pension reforms
1365 00:56:04,110 --> 00:56:05,350 Defense
1366 00:56:05,350 --> 00:56:07,290 The fact that we have
1367 00:56:07,290 --> 00:56:09,890 So many other problems in the world
1368 00:56:09,890 --> 00:56:11,190 That we need to tackle
1369 00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:13,410 Make it much clearer to most people
1370 00:56:13,410 --> 00:56:15,250 We have to be really careful
1371 00:56:15,250 --> 00:56:16,190 How we spend our money
1372 00:56:16,190 --> 00:56:18,690 So you and people who
1373 00:56:18,690 --> 00:56:19,630 Think like you
1374 00:56:19,630 --> 00:56:20,710 You're the winners
1375 00:56:20,710 --> 00:56:22,150 You're starting to win now
1376 00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:23,010 I
1377 00:56:23,010 --> 00:56:24,650 Can you put it like that?
1378 00:56:24,770 --> 00:56:26,630 No, I don't think that's the right way to think
1379 00:56:26,630 --> 00:56:28,270 Think about it as much more that
1380 00:56:28,270 --> 00:56:28,850 I think
1381 00:56:28,850 --> 00:56:30,350 Most people
1382 00:56:30,350 --> 00:56:31,830 Were in a
1383 00:56:31,830 --> 00:56:33,370 Were in a
1384 00:56:33,370 --> 00:56:34,330 In a sort of
1385 00:56:34,330 --> 00:56:35,590 Idealistic scenario
1386 00:56:35,590 --> 00:56:36,910 For some decades
1387 00:56:36,910 --> 00:56:37,390 And believing
1388 00:56:37,390 --> 00:56:39,010 Oh, we can do all good things
1389 00:56:39,010 --> 00:56:41,170 And we're all coming back to reality
1390 00:56:41,190 --> 00:56:43,210 I'm glad that we're all doing that
1391 00:56:43,210 --> 00:56:44,630 So I think it's more sort of
1392 00:56:44,630 --> 00:56:45,830 Welcome back to reality
1393 00:56:45,830 --> 00:56:48,170 Now let's try to think about this smartly
1394 00:56:48,170 --> 00:56:49,970 Instead of just ideologically
1395 00:56:49,970 --> 00:56:53,270 Let's do this in a cost-effective way
1396 00:56:53,270 --> 00:56:55,710 Rather than just wasting lots of resources
1397 00:56:55,710 --> 00:56:57,050 On doing almost no good
1398 00:56:57,050 --> 00:57:01,850 Looking back at the history of the debate on climate
1399 00:57:01,850 --> 00:57:05,250 Are there any topics where you personally have changed your position?
1400 00:57:07,470 --> 00:57:08,890 Not on climate
1401 00:57:08,890 --> 00:57:09,370 No, I mean
1402 00:57:09,370 --> 00:57:09,910 So
1403 00:57:09,910 --> 00:57:10,930 I've always been a fan of climate change
1404 00:57:10,930 --> 00:57:11,170 I've always been a fan of climate change
1405 00:57:11,170 --> 00:57:13,770 I've always tried to look at the latest evidence
1406 00:57:13,770 --> 00:57:15,130 So one of the things
1407 00:57:15,130 --> 00:57:18,990 No, I'm going to give you an example
1408 00:57:18,990 --> 00:57:20,650 That just shows you I was more right
1409 00:57:20,650 --> 00:57:22,270 So that's not a very good answer
1410 00:57:22,270 --> 00:57:25,930 So I think the fundamental point has always been
1411 00:57:25,930 --> 00:57:28,110 That yes, there is a climate problem
1412 00:57:28,110 --> 00:57:30,430 But no, it's not going to be the end of the world
1413 00:57:30,430 --> 00:57:32,350 And that's been my sort of basic argument
1414 00:57:32,350 --> 00:57:35,410 And most of the climate policies that we can act
1415 00:57:35,410 --> 00:57:37,130 Will have fairly high cost
1416 00:57:37,130 --> 00:57:39,410 But deliver very little only in a hundred years
1417 00:57:39,410 --> 00:57:41,150 Those are simple basic ideas
1418 00:57:41,170 --> 00:57:44,870 And I think that's also why
1419 00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:48,690 This has not been challenged in 20 or 30 years
1420 00:57:48,690 --> 00:57:50,930 Because this was what the climate economists
1421 00:57:50,930 --> 00:57:52,070 I mean, William Nordhaus
1422 00:57:52,070 --> 00:57:56,090 Who got the Nobel Prize in Climate Economics
1423 00:57:56,090 --> 00:58:01,210 He built the first models back in the early 80s, 1980s
1424 00:58:01,210 --> 00:58:03,370 And this was what the models showed back then
1425 00:58:03,370 --> 00:58:04,170 And we knew this
1426 00:58:04,170 --> 00:58:05,770 So I think much more know
1427 00:58:05,770 --> 00:58:09,170 We were just in slightly la-la land for 30 years
1428 00:58:09,170 --> 00:58:10,530 And now we've come back to reality
1429 00:58:10,530 --> 00:58:10,810 And I think that's also why
1430 00:58:10,810 --> 00:58:10,870 I think that's also why
1431 00:58:10,870 --> 00:58:10,910 I think that's also why
1432 00:58:10,910 --> 00:58:10,970 I think that's also why
1433 00:58:10,970 --> 00:58:11,050 I think that's also why
1434 00:58:11,050 --> 00:58:11,150 I think that's also why
1435 00:58:11,170 --> 00:58:12,890 Welcome back from la-la land
1436 00:58:12,890 --> 00:58:15,470 We covered quite a few topics
1437 00:58:15,470 --> 00:58:17,070 Obviously not all of them
1438 00:58:17,070 --> 00:58:19,250 Are there anything specific you would like to add
1439 00:58:19,250 --> 00:58:22,270 To the listeners to summarize
1440 00:58:22,270 --> 00:58:23,710 Or anything extra
1441 00:58:23,710 --> 00:58:26,350 So I think we end up
1442 00:58:26,350 --> 00:58:28,970 And I love the fact that we talk so much
1443 00:58:28,970 --> 00:58:30,830 About the poor part of the world
1444 00:58:30,830 --> 00:58:32,430 In this podcast
1445 00:58:32,430 --> 00:58:33,750 But we always end up
1446 00:58:33,750 --> 00:58:35,110 Because we live in the rich world
1447 00:58:35,110 --> 00:58:36,890 We end up talking about climate change
1448 00:58:36,890 --> 00:58:37,570 Because that's what
1449 00:58:37,570 --> 00:58:39,890 Takes up a lot more space
1450 00:58:39,890 --> 00:58:40,870 In the world
1451 00:58:40,870 --> 00:58:42,610 In a rich world setting
1452 00:58:42,610 --> 00:58:44,810 But I think it is important to recognize
1453 00:58:44,810 --> 00:58:47,690 That about half this world's population
1454 00:58:47,690 --> 00:58:49,570 So about 4 billion people
1455 00:58:49,570 --> 00:58:51,750 Live in low and low middle income countries
1456 00:58:51,750 --> 00:58:55,170 Where the world is just unrecognizable
1457 00:58:55,170 --> 00:58:57,970 To the immense luxury we live in
1458 00:58:57,970 --> 00:59:01,150 And so it is worth sometimes
1459 00:59:01,150 --> 00:59:02,590 Taking a step back
1460 00:59:02,590 --> 00:59:03,330 And realizing
1461 00:59:03,330 --> 00:59:05,270 Oh my god, we have it well
1462 00:59:05,270 --> 00:59:07,330 Our lives are good
1463 00:59:07,330 --> 00:59:08,890 And while it's great
1464 00:59:08,890 --> 00:59:10,570 That we are also worried about climate change
1465 00:59:10,570 --> 00:59:11,750 And all these other things
1466 00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:12,950 Let's just remember
1467 00:59:12,950 --> 00:59:15,250 That there are really, really big
1468 00:59:15,250 --> 00:59:16,910 And very basic problems
1469 00:59:16,910 --> 00:59:18,690 For the majority of humanity
1470 00:59:18,690 --> 00:59:20,110 And these are problems
1471 00:59:20,110 --> 00:59:22,210 That we can solve at very, very low cost
1472 00:59:22,210 --> 00:59:24,010 So I encourage you to
1473 00:59:24,010 --> 00:59:25,410 Go to our website
1474 00:59:25,410 --> 00:59:26,850 Copenhagenconsensus.com
1475 00:59:26,850 --> 00:59:28,710 You can actually download that one pager
1476 00:59:28,710 --> 00:59:31,930 So you can see what the 12 solutions are
1477 00:59:31,930 --> 00:59:34,150 And it's incredibly cheap
1478 00:59:34,150 --> 00:59:35,270 And what I would hope
1479 00:59:35,270 --> 00:59:37,250 Is that we can push our politicians
1480 00:59:37,250 --> 00:59:39,410 To do a little more
1481 00:59:39,410 --> 00:59:40,230 To make
1482 00:59:40,230 --> 00:59:42,410 This world a much, much better place
1483 00:59:42,410 --> 00:59:43,550 Especially for the people
1484 00:59:43,550 --> 00:59:45,930 Who are not at all where we are
1485 00:59:45,930 --> 00:59:47,770 Thank you for that summary
1486 00:59:47,770 --> 00:59:49,750 And thank you so much for joining me today
1487 00:59:49,750 --> 00:59:50,250 Björn Lomborg
1488 00:59:50,250 --> 00:59:52,650 Stort tack också förstås
1489 00:59:52,650 --> 00:59:54,330 Till er som har lyssnat
1490 00:59:54,330 --> 00:59:57,110 Och stort tack för att ni stod ut med min engelska också
1491 00:59:57,110 --> 00:59:58,630 Det ni har lyssnat på
1492 00:59:58,630 --> 00:59:59,890 Det är Leda-redaktionen
1493 00:59:59,890 --> 01:00:01,750 En podd från Svenska Dagbladet
1494 01:00:01,750 --> 01:00:03,430 Som vanligt är ni varmt välkomna
1495 01:00:03,430 --> 01:00:04,630 Att höra av er till oss på redaktionen
1496 01:00:04,630 --> 01:00:06,150 Med tankar och synpunkter
1497 01:00:06,150 --> 01:00:07,470 På det vi har precis diskuterat
1498 01:00:07,470 --> 01:00:09,430 Antar att det finns en hel del tankar
1499 01:00:10,230 --> 01:00:11,610 Efter Björns utläggningar
1500 01:00:11,610 --> 01:00:13,490 Men också om ni har idéer och förslag
1501 01:00:13,490 --> 01:00:15,130 På ämnen vi ska ta upp i framtiden
1502 01:00:15,130 --> 01:00:17,090 Maila då till ledarsidan
1503 01:00:17,090 --> 01:00:19,130 snabla.svd.se
1504 01:00:19,130 --> 01:00:21,530 Dagens producent, han heter Jesper Sandström
1505 01:00:21,530 --> 01:00:23,830 Ansvarig utgivare är Lisa Erenius
1506 01:00:23,830 --> 01:00:25,310 Själv heter jag Andreas Eriksson
1507 01:00:25,310 --> 01:00:26,990 Och jag hoppas att vi hörs snart igen
Källinformation
- Utgivare:
- Svenska Dagbladet
Skapad: 17 april 2026